Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

[DWF]

Do you really believe that the Son'a would've shared the benefits of the process with the Federation or the Baku forthat matter?

Yes, that's exact what I believe, and this is why.

The Sona must have been the ones to have approached the Federation Council, and not the other way around. The Federation considered the planet to be theirs. If the Sona simply moved the Baku and harvested the particle all by themselves, and the Federation found out about it, the Federation would be pissed about the theft of their natural resources and would have gone to the Sona for satisfaction. The Sona didn't want long range problems.

In other words, the Sona were scared of Starfleet.

Even with everything that happen in the movie, the Sona would have kept whatever they previously negotiated (one percent?), and the rest would have gone to the Federation. Given that the Holoship was of Federation design, and not Sona, when the dust settled the Federation would have had "custody" of the Baku. The Baku would have had the same access to the particles as the rest of the people in the Federation.
immediate need for new medical breakthroughs. Only a huge war going on.

Ru'afo claimed the Federation was old and weak since it was always fending off attacks from the likes of the Klingons, Borg and now the Dominion. Plus he killed Dougherty and ordered an attack on the Enterprise, I don't think they had any great fear of Starfleet.

 

[R. Star]

Yes, becuase de-aging people is so useful in a war with mass produced legions of shock troops that will kill the hell out of you within days of being born

Yeah... things like spontaneous organ regeneration when Geordi's eyes grew back wouldn't be useful in a war at all. No one's going to lose an organ or anything else in combat.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Yes, becuase de-aging people is so useful in a war with mass produced legions of shock troops that will kill the hell out of you within days of being born

Yeah... things like spontaneous organ regeneration when Geordi's eyes grew back wouldn't be useful in a war at all. No one's going to lose an organ or anything else in combat.

I was unaware that the optic nerve (which is what got fixed, not him growing new eyes) qualified as an organ.

 

[BillJ]

Does make you wonder what happened to the spores from Omicron Ceti III in This Side of Paradise? I wonder if they ever pursued or were able to adapt them for treating folks with various afflictions? We know Elias Sandoval regrew his appendix while he was there.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Does make you wonder what happened to the spores from Omicron Ceti III in This Side of Paradise? I wonder if they ever pursued or were able to adapt them for treating folks with various afflictions? We know Elias Sandoval regrew his appendix while he was there.

Well if what we hear in Star Trek IV is accurate then about 20 years later they have a pill that can cause a person to grown a new fully functional kidney, so they might ha e followed up on it.

 

[sonak]

Except from the data Soong found in the Klingon database the Klingons were aware of two inhabitable planets in the Briar Patch and they didn't move to take them, probably becuase it would be more trouble than it is worth as they would have to move ships into a difficult to navigate area where you have to travel a considerable distance just to communicate with the rest of the galaxy (so basically its Bumf@#k Idaho in space), and they only thing they would seemingly get from all the effort it would take to move in is some particles which go against their philosophy of dying gloriously in battle.

So no I really don't think the Klingons would bother with a backwater planet of little importance (to them probably) thats hard as hell to get to.

One does not have to inhabit the planets to claim them - much as you don't have to be on your land to claim it as property.
As to the notion that the klingons - or the romulans - won't claim VERY valuable real-estate such as M class worlds in their space as their own

So you are just going to ignore that fact that they seemingly had no interest in the planet and they did not do anything to use this supposedly valuable piece of real-estate or make sure someone else didn't use it behind their backs.



I think he would be more worried about how the federation's allies would respond to that fact that according to Dougherty the federation was going to horde this medical advance for themselves.



Yes, becuase de-aging people is so useful in a war with mass produced legions of shock troops that will kill the hell out of you within days of being born

I got the impression that the Son'a left on their own.

nope, they were exiled when their attempt to take over failed.

which means we have TWO questions:

-how was their attempt to take over "thwarted" by Luddite pacifists

Simple they probably didn't have guns, as just becuase you don't like living in a luddite community and want technology doesn't mean you actually have it in a luddite community. And no seeing as they set out to make a no tech community I doubt they had guns on the ship or the necessary stuff to make them.

ok, so they didn't have guns at the time. They're still fighting PACIFISTS. How do you lose to pacifists?

And even if they didn't have guns at the time, what stopped them from coming back two generations later WITH GUNS?

It still doesn't make sense.

 

[T'Girl]

Ru'afo claimed the Federation was old and weak since it was always fending off attacks from the likes of the Klingons, Borg and now the Dominion. Plus he killed Dougherty and ordered an attack on the Enterprise, I don't think they had any great fear of Starfleet.

Alright DWF, then why did the Sona form a partnership with the Federation?

The Sona knew the location of the planet.
The Sona knew of the medical properties of the particles
The Sona had the technology to do the harvest.

In term of just physically acquiring the particles, the Federation brings nothing to the game. So why did the Sona want them in it? My read is that the Sona were worried about long range retribution from the Federation, so they approached the Federation Council and made them partners.

However, if the Sona had no real fear of the Federation, why include them at all?

 

[DWF]

Ru'afo claimed the Federation was old and weak since it was always fending off attacks from the likes of the Klingons, Borg and now the Dominion. Plus he killed Dougherty and ordered an attack on the Enterprise, I don't think they had any great fear of Starfleet.

Alright DWF, then why did the Sona form a partnership with the Federation?

The Sona knew the location of the planet.
The Sona knew of the medical properties of the particles
The Sona had the technology to do the harvest.

In term of just physically acquiring the particles, the Federation brings nothing to the game. So why did the Sona want them in it? My read is that the Sona were worried about long range retribution from the Federation, so they approached the Federation Council and made them partners.

However, if the Sona had no real fear of the Federation, why include them at all?

Federation support. Federation procedures. Federation rules. Look in the mirror, Admiral. The Federation is old. In the past 24 months, they've been challenged by every major power in the quadrant: the Borg, the Cardassians, the Dominion. They all smell the scent of death on the Federation. That's why you've embraced our offer. Because it will give your dear Federation new life. Well, how badly do you want it, admiral? Because there are hard choices to be made now. If the Enterprise gets the news to the Federation about their brave captain's valiant struggle on behalf of the defenseless Ba'ku, your Federation's politicians will waiver. Your Federation opinion polls will open a public debate. Your Federation allies will want their say. You-- need I go on?

The real question is why did the Federation become partners with the Son'a? The planet is in Federation space but according to Daugherty the Son'a had the technology to make it work and of course in the end the Federation had little knowledge of what was really going on. And in the end the plan was illegal and immoral, hence the reason to hide what they were doing and when push came to shove we learned what the Son'a would do to protect the plan and that meant killing a Federtion admiral and going after the Enterprise.

 

[CaptainStoner]

Yes, the Sona were out of control and had to be stopped, not to mention reported to starfleet, which was in the dark.
Yes, the movie has plot holes. They all do.

Insurrection threads make my boobs firm up.

 

[sonak]

Yes, the Sona were out of control and had to be stopped, not to mention reported to starfleet, which was in the dark.
Yes, the movie has plot holes. They all do.

Insurrection threads make my boobs firm up.

in what way were the Son'a "out of control?" The first part of the movie showed them calmly and completely cooperating with Starfleet on the "duck blind" mission, a mission that required a lot of patience. Again, the Son'a ONLY retaliated in response to Picard's sabotage of the plan, they had been nothing but cooperative up to that point.

And Starfleet wasn't in the dark, Dougerty was an admiral who was acting on orders from the Federation Council itself.

 

[Jerikka Dawn]

I come back to this thread and I see people still think "Geographical boundaries recognized by treaty, influence and/or presence" and "Planets subject to Federation law" are the same thing. Geography and politics aren't the same things. Hell, they aren't even depicted on the same type of map.

But please, go on thinking the United Federation of Planets is a conquering force that subjects everyone within a defined radius around Earth to their laws regardless of whether those people have been on that planet before Earth even knew what a warp coil was.

Please proceed to throw out everything we know about how planets join the Federation too.

Edit to add: It's the United Federation of Planets.

I don't want to know what alternate version of the movie you people are watching .. I want to know what franchise you people have been watching.

 

[sonak]

I come back to this thread and I see people still think "Geographical boundaries recognized by treaty, influence and/or presence" and "Planets subject to Federation law" are the same thing. Geography and politics aren't the same things. Hell, they aren't even depicted on the same type of map.

But please, go on thinking the United Federation of Planets is a conquering force that subjects everyone within a defined radius around Earth to their laws regardless of whether those people have been on that planet before Earth even knew what a warp coil was.

Please proceed to throw out everything we know about how planets join the Federation too.

Edit to add: It's the United Federation of Planets.

I don't want to know what alternate version of the movie you people are watching .. I want to know what franchise you people have been watching.

that's nice. So it's not a Federation planet. So the Son'a are free to come in and remove the Baku then, right?

(insert sound of spluttering, ready the moving of goalposts to show that NOW, the Federation actually has a DUTY to defend the Baku, common sense and the PD be disregarded)

 

[BillJ]

...

I'm all for allowing the Ba'ku and S'ona to work things out on their own. Regardless of how badly it ends up for the Ba'ku this time around.

 

[R. Star]

Yes, the Sona were out of control and had to be stopped, not to mention reported to starfleet, which was in the dark.
Yes, the movie has plot holes. They all do.

Insurrection threads make my boobs firm up.

in what way were the Son'a "out of control?" The first part of the movie showed them calmly and completely cooperating with Starfleet on the "duck blind" mission, a mission that required a lot of patience. Again, the Son'a ONLY retaliated in response to Picard's sabotage of the plan, they had been nothing but cooperative up to that point.

And Starfleet wasn't in the dark, Dougerty was an admiral who was acting on orders from the Federation Council itself.

For the first freaking hour of the movie the most villainous thing Ruafo did was bleed on Picard's carpet. It wasn't until Picard took off his pips and started openly screwing with them did he retaliate. Even then we was working with Dougherty by including him in the plans and asking his consent.

 

[sonak]

...

I'm all for allowing the Ba'ku and S'ona to work things out on their own. Regardless of how badly it ends up for the Ba'ku this time around.

I'd pay for tickets to watch THAT.

 

[Jerikka Dawn]

I come back to this thread and I see people still think "Geographical boundaries recognized by treaty, influence and/or presence" and "Planets subject to Federation law" are the same thing. Geography and politics aren't the same things. Hell, they aren't even depicted on the same type of map.

But please, go on thinking the United Federation of Planets is a conquering force that subjects everyone within a defined radius around Earth to their laws regardless of whether those people have been on that planet before Earth even knew what a warp coil was.

Please proceed to throw out everything we know about how planets join the Federation too.

Edit to add: It's the United Federation of Planets.

I don't want to know what alternate version of the movie you people are watching .. I want to know what franchise you people have been watching.

that's nice. So it's not a Federation planet. So the Son'a are free to come in and remove the Baku then, right?

Actually, yes. At least they're free to try. And the Baku are free to try to stop them. This is a textbook internal affair. It has nothing to do with the Federation and they shouldn't be involved in the Baku/Sona internal issue. If the Sona come in and nuke the planet, oh well.

(insert sound of spluttering, ready the moving of goalposts to show that NOW, the Federation actually has a DUTY to defend the Baku, common sense and the PD be disregarded)

Don't make assumptions. I'm consistent and you have absolutely no reason to assume I will move goal posts, unless you can provide evidence that I've done so in the past. The Federation has no right to interfere with the Baku's sovereignty on that planet, and the Federation likewise has no right to interfere if the Sona mess with them either.

 

[sonak]

I come back to this thread and I see people still think "Geographical boundaries recognized by treaty, influence and/or presence" and "Planets subject to Federation law" are the same thing. Geography and politics aren't the same things. Hell, they aren't even depicted on the same type of map.

But please, go on thinking the United Federation of Planets is a conquering force that subjects everyone within a defined radius around Earth to their laws regardless of whether those people have been on that planet before Earth even knew what a warp coil was.

Please proceed to throw out everything we know about how planets join the Federation too.

Edit to add: It's the United Federation of Planets.

I don't want to know what alternate version of the movie you people are watching .. I want to know what franchise you people have been watching.

that's nice. So it's not a Federation planet. So the Son'a are free to come in and remove the Baku then, right?

Actually, yes. At least they're free to try. And the Baku are free to try to stop them. This is a textbook internal affair. It has nothing to do with the Federation and they shouldn't be involved in the Baku/Sona internal issue. If the Sona come in and nuke the planet, oh well.

(insert sound of spluttering, ready the moving of goalposts to show that NOW, the Federation actually has a DUTY to defend the Baku, common sense and the PD be disregarded)

Don't make assumptions. I'm consistent and you have absolutely no reason to assume I will move goal posts, unless you can provide evidence that I've done so in the past. The Federation has no right to interfere with the Baku's sovereignty on that planet, and the Federation likewise has no right to interfere if the Sona mess with them either.

fair enough, so you're consistent. There are still a couple of issues:

1. if NO ONE considered it a Federation planet, why was the outpost there at all? Why didn't the Council just say to the Son'a "do whatever you want, it's not our planet anyway" when Ru'afo approached them with the deal? Obviously, the UFP and Son'a BOTH thought it was a Federation planet.

2. My argument just shows that the entire movie is based around a stupid premise. The Baku, as a small village of Luddite pacifists, was basically doomed either way if common sense was prevailing. Either the Federation would legally relocate them, or if they gave up any claim to the planet, then ANY power could just come in and kill them or remove them. The ONLY scenario in which the Baku are okay is one in which the Federation takes on a more or less PERMANENT role as guardians of the Baku and their stupid, selfish lifestyle while they give nothing back to the Federation.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Yes, the Sona were out of control and had to be stopped, not to mention reported to starfleet, which was in the dark.
Yes, the movie has plot holes. They all do.

Insurrection threads make my boobs firm up.

in what way were the Son'a "out of control?" The first part of the movie showed them calmly and completely cooperating with Starfleet on the "duck blind" mission, a mission that required a lot of patience. Again, the Son'a ONLY retaliated in response to Picard's sabotage of the plan, they had been nothing but cooperative up to that point.

And Starfleet wasn't in the dark, Dougerty was an admiral who was acting on orders from the Federation Council itself.

For the first freaking hour of the movie the most villainous thing Ruafo did was bleed on Picard's carpet. It wasn't until Picard took off his pips and started openly screwing with them did he retaliate. Even then we was working with Dougherty by including him in the plans and asking his consent.

Asking his consent to kill federation citizens for complaining to their government hence why Picard pointed out the Dougherty had probably stepped in it since their isn't any damned way to justify an unprovoked attack and yeas it was unprovoked becuase while Picard was playing insurgent Riker was leaving as per the orders from Admiral Dougherty.

that's nice. So it's not a Federation planet. So the Son'a are free to come in and remove the Baku then, right?

Actually, yes. At least they're free to try. And the Baku are free to try to stop them. This is a textbook internal affair. It has nothing to do with the Federation and they shouldn't be involved in the Baku/Sona internal issue. If the Sona come in and nuke the planet, oh well.

(insert sound of spluttering, ready the moving of goalposts to show that NOW, the Federation actually has a DUTY to defend the Baku, common sense and the PD be disregarded)

Don't make assumptions. I'm consistent and you have absolutely no reason to assume I will move goal posts, unless you can provide evidence that I've done so in the past. The Federation has no right to interfere with the Baku's sovereignty on that planet, and the Federation likewise has no right to interfere if the Sona mess with them either.

fair enough, so you're consistent. There are still a couple of issues:

1. if NO ONE considered it a Federation planet, why was the outpost there at all? Why didn't the Council just say to the Son'a "do whatever you want, it's not our planet anyway" when Ru'afo approached them with the deal? Obviously, the UFP and Son'a BOTH thought it was a Federation planet.

Becuase the federation observes pre-warp cultures all the time. Seriously there were episodes that covered this did you miss them or something.

 

[sonak]

in what way were the Son'a "out of control?" The first part of the movie showed them calmly and completely cooperating with Starfleet on the "duck blind" mission, a mission that required a lot of patience. Again, the Son'a ONLY retaliated in response to Picard's sabotage of the plan, they had been nothing but cooperative up to that point.

And Starfleet wasn't in the dark, Dougerty was an admiral who was acting on orders from the Federation Council itself.

For the first freaking hour of the movie the most villainous thing Ruafo did was bleed on Picard's carpet. It wasn't until Picard took off his pips and started openly screwing with them did he retaliate. Even then we was working with Dougherty by including him in the plans and asking his consent.

Asking his consent to kill federation citizens for complaining to their government hence why Picard pointed out the Dougherty had probably stepped in it since their isn't any damned way to justify an unprovoked attack and yeas it was unprovoked becuase while Picard was playing insurgent Riker was leaving as per the orders from Admiral Dougherty.

Actually, yes. At least they're free to try. And the Baku are free to try to stop them. This is a textbook internal affair. It has nothing to do with the Federation and they shouldn't be involved in the Baku/Sona internal issue. If the Sona come in and nuke the planet, oh well.

Don't make assumptions. I'm consistent and you have absolutely no reason to assume I will move goal posts, unless you can provide evidence that I've done so in the past. The Federation has no right to interfere with the Baku's sovereignty on that planet, and the Federation likewise has no right to interfere if the Sona mess with them either.

fair enough, so you're consistent. There are still a couple of issues:

1. if NO ONE considered it a Federation planet, why was the outpost there at all? Why didn't the Council just say to the Son'a "do whatever you want, it's not our planet anyway" when Ru'afo approached them with the deal? Obviously, the UFP and Son'a BOTH thought it was a Federation planet.

Becuase the federation observes pre-warp cultures all the time. Seriously there were episodes that covered this did you miss them or something.

um, no. Clearly you didn't understand my point-the outpost was about observing the village in order to carry out the relocation plan with the Son'a. If it wasn't a Federation planet, they wouldn't need to do that-the Son'a would have come in and just beamed them all up whenever they felt like it, or just came down there with guns and rounded them up.

 

[horatio83]

Baku is a planet in Federation space but it is not a member of the Federation. This is probably fairly common, after all the Feds don't force anybody to join their club.

I think the main point of the posters who think that Picard made an error is that there is a resource of enormous value which should be shared with everybody. I agree, it is not okay than only a few hundred people should gain from a "fountain of youth". But it is neither okay to just steal it from them as the Sona and Federation tried to.

And it is certainly not OK to judge the way of life of any of those numerous lifeforms out there. That's just Prime Directive 101. The Klingons are bloodthirsty predators and we certainly defend ourselves against them but we don't force our ethics down their throat. Biological fundamentals matter, it is very unlikely that such a predator creature would ever join the UFP. Thankfully even the Klingons have a hunch about the Prime Directive, the understand that there aren't just noble warriors like themselves but also coward weaklings out there and while they claim that today is a good day to die they are not that eager to do total war.

Same applies for a bunch of hippies. Not our job to judge them and they definitely don't harm us. But making an alliance with a bunch of "petty thugs" that stab you in the back at the first chance they get just in order to gain an ally in the Dominion War? That's just suicidally idiotic.

I don't mind criticism of the movie, its script is certainly not perfect. But denying what happened on the screen and pretending that fair is foul and foul is fair, that the hippies are wicked resource stealers who don't wanna share (ehm, nobody asked them) whereas the Sona are decent folks is simply factually wrong.

The movie as it stands is a simple morality tale and as FKnight has pointed out there are no options anyway, the Feds have to obey the Prime Directive. And before a big discussion about the Prime Directive starts, I like to watch and talk about Trek. The real Trek, not a hypothetical Mirror Universe Trek where the Sona are our lovely new allies and the Prime Directive doesn't exist.