KD, Christopher L Bennett is probably the most accurate when it comes to anybody writing. It is absolutely ludicrous for anyone to use the word 'snowjob' WRT Bennett's work. I think you are being baited.
Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited
- Thread starter ZapBrannigan
- Start date
It's looking that way, unfortunately.
I could be wrong then. What I do seem to recall hearing at some point was that Roddenberry thought an odd number of nacelles would be like a helicopter without the right number of rotors to balance its torque. But unfortunately I can't recall a specific context, so I was trying to remember if any such description might have been floating around. It could have easily surfaced after the "rules" came out.
Lenny Nurdbol
Lieutenant Commander
You might want to read THIS to get a vague idea how much research and effort went into that "technobabble bunk." I'd think you of all people would appreciate an author doing his research - but it seems that unless they reach the exact same conclusions you do, it's all for naught
If few key words placed within a novel's narrative...
Along similar lines, there's a book or two that explains how the holy Kuran agrees with modern scientific teachings, too... I think they even drag in quantum mechanics to justify that...
But getting back to the skewed topic... Just because that particular author just happens to hang out and post around here, naturally has Absolutely nothing to do with one's praise for him...Of Course...
I'm sure that if Sondra Marshak & Myrna Culbreath were on Here, they would also be hailed as the greatest of Trek authors...blah, blah blah...
This is why I'm shutting up now, one word: Bias...
I have my likes and dislikes, and you have yours...
I'm not here to appease authors...
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Lenny Nurdbol
Lieutenant Commander
You got that right the first time, MJ or FJ, they both were reasoning along the same lines... You go to the top of the class...
Geoffrey Mandel finalized it in a detailed blueprint showing its interior to match various episodes...
The new engines on the refit Enterprise changed the ship's Engineering section and reactor placements considerably... From that the 1701-D design evolved... After that, the original Enterprise's engine design was forgotten and rewritten to reflect the latest and greatest design in TNG... And those people pretended that what goes for -D goes for All Starships throughout time and space... You know: the warp core was always there in TOS but we never saw it, the large cargo complex in the secondary hull was always there but we never saw it, the huge rec deck was always there but we never saw it...
The VIP Lounge was always there but we never saw it...
And maybe Kirk even had a ready room and a pet fish and we never saw them either!
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Lenny Nurdbol
Lieutenant Commander
All I can say is that these "rules" came out Long after TOS, decades after... And most likely after GR passed away...
They were also relayed unofficially or as hearsay...
I'd bet my life that they didn't come from the mouth of the Great Bird...
Says the guy who won't accept the truth about and blindly worships Franz Joseph and Gene Roddenberry. No, I'm not appeasing any authors. Christopher and I have disagreed on and argued a ton of things.
Yep, you can dislike his books, but in no way can you dismiss Christopher's attention to detail. He'll school you on pretty much any subject you can think of. And he has to many people here.
It is funny that Lenny Nurdboi accepts his own authorities but everyone else is just pandering.
You know by this definition you've just ruled that %95 of what Franz Joseph drew is in fact not canon. We never saw it. Talk about backing yourself into a corner with your own argument!
It is funny that Lenny Nurdboi accepts his own authorities but everyone else is just pandering.
You know by this definition you've just ruled that %95 of what Franz Joseph drew is in fact not canon. We never saw it. Talk about backing yourself into a corner with your own argument!
Lenny Nurdbol
Lieutenant Commander
1. Except your Christopher's attention to detail doesn't take into account Tech Fandom, as in self-contained non-networked warp drive nacelles which he blatantly violates in his last novel...since the Enterprise DID NOT have the same warp drive nacelles from start to finish of her 5-year mission... She was launched with PB-31 nacelles, were replaced with PB-32 nacelles by the time of "Corbomite Maneuver" and between "All Our Yesterdays" and "Beyond The Farthest Star" was upgraded with PB-47 nacelles... So that pretty much shoots the logic behind his story to hell... But your revered writer is thinking that the same warp drive tech aboard 1701-D holds 100% true for 1701...
2. No, by my definition, FJ's stuff is more official than ever Because It Actually Appeared On Viewscreens in the feature films! Or did you sleep through V'ger's bridge assault and take-over of the ship's computer?
Not my fault that other writers who followed ignored them...
You do realize that FJ was asked by Paramount to serve as a consultant of some sort when TMP was being made, because of how successful the TM and associated works had been, and that he declined that offer? On the grounds that he didn't want Roddenberry to feel he was dictating how technology should exist in the Star Trek universe?
According to his daughter Karen, in this interview of 1999, it was her understanding that the little snippets of FJ's work which were included in the first three films were done by production staff who happened to enjoy his contributions and technical work. He was never given any formal credit for those elements, and his decision to not accept the opportunities as a creative consultant could have arguably hurt him since it allowed Gene and Paramount to dismiss his work later as being "non-canon" stuff.
According to his daughter Karen, in this interview of 1999, it was her understanding that the little snippets of FJ's work which were included in the first three films were done by production staff who happened to enjoy his contributions and technical work. He was never given any formal credit for those elements, and his decision to not accept the opportunities as a creative consultant could have arguably hurt him since it allowed Gene and Paramount to dismiss his work later as being "non-canon" stuff.
I found it extremely interesting to learn that she was shaking with rage during her first viewing of TMP. If I ever see that one again, I'm going to be very keen to catch the Tech Manual references if possible.
Nope, very little of those blueprints were seen, only snippets. So the majority of his layouts are not canon. Sorry, if it wasn't on screen, it's not canon. To this day large parts of all of the Enterprises DO NOT EXIST as canon.
This is why I focus on what I call my own "head canon," more than the official canon. I know FJ isn't canon, but some of it makes more sense to me than canon, so when I assemble things in my head, it stays.
Lenny Nurdbol
Lieutenant Commander
Oh, right, only snippets are seen so only the snippets are "canon"... And then maybe only those snippets seen on Tuesday are "official"...
And I love how that particular interview is hauled out each and every time...
Maybe if I had interviewed GR on a bad day when he was disgruntled over the production of TNG's first season and damned it, fans would "de-canonize" the first season of TNG based strictly on the Bird's word... Bird is the word!
Why don't you guys just admit that you have this vengeance against FJ which was the whole point of creating a thread about it in the first place... Maybe because Okuda's the head honcho these days in "Treknicaldom" and FJ's contributions make His look rather unremarkable in the art department so it's best to Damn FJ to hell and keep his works well-buried, away from curious prying eyes of the new generation... Gotta keep discouraging the younger fans from seeking out the original works lest they maybe change their minds...
And I love how that particular interview is hauled out each and every time...
Maybe if I had interviewed GR on a bad day when he was disgruntled over the production of TNG's first season and damned it, fans would "de-canonize" the first season of TNG based strictly on the Bird's word... Bird is the word!
Why don't you guys just admit that you have this vengeance against FJ which was the whole point of creating a thread about it in the first place... Maybe because Okuda's the head honcho these days in "Treknicaldom" and FJ's contributions make His look rather unremarkable in the art department so it's best to Damn FJ to hell and keep his works well-buried, away from curious prying eyes of the new generation... Gotta keep discouraging the younger fans from seeking out the original works lest they maybe change their minds...
I find the easiest and best way to deal with these issues is to just happily ignore what I don't like and privately accept what I do like.
Re: FJ's material. I loved it when it came out. I freely acknowledge its significance in the development and evolution of this kind of material. I respect and appreciate a lot of what he did, but I also cannot ignore what he got wrong. And he did get stuff wrong. The ship he drew (among other things) is not the same as what was shown onscreen. There are a lot of discrepancies to the point that it seems he might never have referred to the actual 11 footer. Even studying film clips and stills he should have gotten certain things right, but he didn't. I do like his style, his professionalism and a lot of his conceptual thinking, but there are some things he simply got wrong.
One can argue he drew plans for the Constitution, but the set was pitched as plans for the Enterprise and they diverge in a lot of ways.
Re: FJ's material. I loved it when it came out. I freely acknowledge its significance in the development and evolution of this kind of material. I respect and appreciate a lot of what he did, but I also cannot ignore what he got wrong. And he did get stuff wrong. The ship he drew (among other things) is not the same as what was shown onscreen. There are a lot of discrepancies to the point that it seems he might never have referred to the actual 11 footer. Even studying film clips and stills he should have gotten certain things right, but he didn't. I do like his style, his professionalism and a lot of his conceptual thinking, but there are some things he simply got wrong.
One can argue he drew plans for the Constitution, but the set was pitched as plans for the Enterprise and they diverge in a lot of ways.
Lenny Nurdbol
Lieutenant Commander
The FJ blueprints are a compilation of not only the different miniatures but of Matt Jefferies drawings... That's why it's Treknically called the Achernar configuration of the Enterprise: her final incarnation prior to the Enterprise Class refit... It's not the version presented in the pilots (Constitution); it's not the one presented in the series (Bonhomme Richard); it's a Fusion of these into one...plus a bit of TAS, too! And that's where some of your discrepancies arise... Other differences include such things as actual Visible phaser banks on the hull which were never present on the models... Gee, I wonder why he did that... Just like FJ's flattened bridge--it was done to reconcile the turbolift shaft placement with the entry alcove region in the bridge Set itself... Otherwise the bridge would have to Sink into Deck 2 virtually eliminating Deck 2 and dropping the primary hull's deck count by one... Consequently, the flatter bridge module, being somewhat wider, allowed for an outer inspection corridor And the secondary exit to the left of the main screen (acknowledged in TAS)... The outer corridor section incidentally is acknowledged in Alan Dean Foster's novelization of "The Slaver Weapon" in Star Trek Log 10... The Bantam novel "Planet of Judgment" also acknowledges the service corridor and gangway down to Deck 2... FJ also justified it by stating that there's no such thing as a command center which has only one entryway...
And there is such a thing as artistic license... Let me give you an example from his Star Fleet Technical Manual... FJ blueprinted various props but wasn't 100% precise because, well, they were Props... Let me explain That! Take for instance Dr. McCoy's medical scanner... He waves it around patients and somehow manages to take a meaningful reading, often spinning the Feinberger round in his hand to gaze at the bottom (or top if you prefer) of the toy... It would be rather dull to just blueprint That, label one on/off button and be done with it... No, FJ took it to the next level and put a small diagnostic scale on one side (somewhat akin to the medical monitor on the diagnostic bed) complete with a "normal range" for life forms, plus he added markings on the other side of the instrument for fine tuning it to different metabolisms... In other words, he made it Plausible and Realistic as an actual medical instrument... The same thing goes for Dr. McCoy's scalpels--they were salt shakers with No markings or "trigger" buttons... FJ put calibration markings on them, a recessed trigger, a safety etc... I think that's a lot more interesting than just blueprinting...shiny salt shakers!
Oh, why do I even Bother... You'd think I was being paid the FJ estate lawyers to back him up! Nobody's listening to me, and those that do have their own opinions firmly in place and aren't going to budge...an angstrom... I'm trying to relay this to people who don't give a tribble's ass about Treknical history nor what I was brought up on and learned in old school Treknical Fandom...
And there is such a thing as artistic license... Let me give you an example from his Star Fleet Technical Manual... FJ blueprinted various props but wasn't 100% precise because, well, they were Props... Let me explain That! Take for instance Dr. McCoy's medical scanner... He waves it around patients and somehow manages to take a meaningful reading, often spinning the Feinberger round in his hand to gaze at the bottom (or top if you prefer) of the toy... It would be rather dull to just blueprint That, label one on/off button and be done with it... No, FJ took it to the next level and put a small diagnostic scale on one side (somewhat akin to the medical monitor on the diagnostic bed) complete with a "normal range" for life forms, plus he added markings on the other side of the instrument for fine tuning it to different metabolisms... In other words, he made it Plausible and Realistic as an actual medical instrument... The same thing goes for Dr. McCoy's scalpels--they were salt shakers with No markings or "trigger" buttons... FJ put calibration markings on them, a recessed trigger, a safety etc... I think that's a lot more interesting than just blueprinting...shiny salt shakers!
Oh, why do I even Bother... You'd think I was being paid the FJ estate lawyers to back him up! Nobody's listening to me, and those that do have their own opinions firmly in place and aren't going to budge...an angstrom... I'm trying to relay this to people who don't give a tribble's ass about Treknical history nor what I was brought up on and learned in old school Treknical Fandom...
^^ It isn't that no one is listening to you but that others have a different perspective. And as far as FJ having to supposedly reconcile things, well I'm sorry but others since have been able to reconcile elements of the ship while still staying true to what was seen onscreen. And I'm not referring to those who worked on the later shows and tried retconning TOS but rather dedicated fans who have often enough done a better job than the "experts."
Easy answer: One does not admit to things that are not true.
There's no persecution going on here. Disagreement does not equal harassment.
I find Franz Josef's work interesting and impressive and simultaneously inconsequential. Those are not contradictory positions.
