Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited
- Thread starter ZapBrannigan
- Start date
Please do not presume to speak for me.
I bought The Making of Star Trek back in 1968 when I was 8 years old, traced and redrew the schematics and sketches, and read it until the covers fell off. I bought the FJ plans and the Technical Manual when they first came out and looked through them so many times I had to buy new copies. I watched TAS and drew the ships I saw. I contributed to fanzines and continue to design and write about TOS-era starships to this day. I am a first-generation technical fan.
Greg Jein and Michael Okuda (Okuda!) are also first-generation fans. But I suspect, for some reason, that you don't presume to speak for them.
Gee, I thought Warped9 was a extremist fundamentalist Trekkie whack job
(I kid!), but when someone's gone too far for him, then new definitions are needed. PS: Of course, if you've not been serious, then I must congratulate you on the most entertaining piece of performance art I've seen in many years. Bravo, sir! The nuance and intensity of your portrayal are nothing short of masterful! Five stars! *****
PPS: If you are serious, then stop being so serious! For your own health at least. I don't want to hear that you (or any Trekkie) have popped a cerebral aneurysm hunting and pecking out one of your anti-Okuda screeds (OKUDA!!!). Carpal tunnel syndrome can also result from pounding the keyboard and overusing the shift key, so please be careful and ice down those wrists! (NB: The language of the Trek BBS is not German, so nouns within a sentence are not normally capitalized unless proper.)
Just to clarify my intention as the original poster, I love FJ and wanted to get a conversation started by laying out a couple of my nitpicks.
I honestly did not realize it would get heated. I just love the topic.
And while "head canon" is a new term to me, I'm a head canon guy. Everyone is the CEO of his own STAR TREK franchise, in his head.
Sorry to be disagreeable, but...
First, as someone who has served in or in support of the US military (including serving on a US Navy ship twice) and NASA (including supporting 13 shuttle missions) for nearly 30 years, I understand about how the Navy numbers its hulls and NASA numbered their shuttles. Frankly I don't see how those things have anything to do with my original point.
Also, you might want to watch "Court Martial" again, and when you do you'll see the chart contains 10 registry numbers and is titled "STAR SHIP STATUS." It's not titled "Starbase 11 Repair Status." Seems to me that indicates those registry numbers belong to 10 of the 12 starships (amazingly, if you add the Constellation's and Republic's registry numbers to that list you have 12 canonical numbers).
Finally, given a choice of trusting Greg Jein's conjecture vs. Franz Joseph's, there is no choice in my mind. Franz Joseph is just another fan while GJ has genuine Star Trek gravitas. The successors to Roddenberry must agree with me as they've acknowledged his numbering scheme as canon.
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When FJ numbered his list of starships, as far has he knew no one else had or ever would. He was trying to add some detail and texture for the fans at a time when Roddenberry had specifically told him, "STAR TREK is dead; do whatever you want." Nothing wrong in that.
True enough. And in some respects I prefer FJ's approach to what came later.
Lenny Nurdbol
Lieutenant Commander
Please do not presume to speak for me.
Greg Jein and Michael Okuda (Okuda!) are also first-generation fans. But I suspect, for some reason, that you don't presume to speak for them.
Gee, I thought Warped9 was a extremist fundamentalist Trekkie whack job
PS: Of course, if you've not been serious, then I must congratulate you on the most entertaining piece of performance art I've seen in many years. Bravo, sir! The nuance and intensity of your portrayal are nothing short of masterful! Five stars! *****
PPS: If you are serious, then stop being so serious! For your own health at least. I don't want to hear that you (or any Trekkie) have popped a cerebral aneurysm hunting and pecking out one of your anti-Okuda screeds (OKUDA!!!). Carpal tunnel syndrome can also result from pounding the keyboard and overusing the shift key, so please be careful and ice down those wrists! (NB: The language of the Trek BBS is not German, so nouns within a sentence are not normally capitalized unless proper.)
It seems that you're getting more worked up than me when I'm only trying to discuss the subject matter...
In fact, I would almost say Hostile...
I'm not dragging Okuda and Jein in here because they are not the subject of this thread (and I wouldn't dare imply that you are accusing me of being, let's say, anti-Asian, either)...
Tell you what, you come up with a Star Fleet Technical manual, get it published, make it a best-seller, make it a milestone publication never before seen anywhere and revered by fans for decades...and then maybe I'll listen to you...
And, yes, I'm serious...
If you don't like what I have to say, how about you just bypass it and move on to the next message or thread...
P.S. I'll capitalize whatever the hell I want to capitalize, whenver and wherever I want to capitalize it... Maybe you'd like to outlaw trailing triple dots, too? I was told by a certain nameless person not to type them and I laughed and asked why not and I did it anyway and apparently that pisses certain people off here, too...
... ... ...
Lenny Nurdbol
Lieutenant Commander
Genuine huh... Because he's alive, well, and a name-dropper... OK...
Let's talk "Court Martial"...
Been a while but I recall just numbers listed on a table of "% Completed" and we're supposed to believe that all these ships are Constitution Class because that's all Star Fleet has at it's disposal? More shocking, is that they are ALL undergoing repairs and none are at the 100% mark (again, from memory, maybe 1 or 2?)... How can anyone conclude that these are all Constitution class heavy cruisers? If they are, then Star Fleet is in deep shit! The Federation is undefended!
More logically, how I and other FJ-supporters Interpret that chart, is that these are the vessels currently at Starbase 11 undergoing repairs... They are a wide range of ships, some Constitution class, some just heavy cruisers, others of entirely different classes and types...
Next time I take my car for repairs at Sears or wherever and I see a posted roster of other vehicles undergoing repairs, I don't make the assumption that they're from Sears repair shops nationwide...
The "Court Martial" NCC numbers are all over the place, which should be a clue by itself... Again, I'm talking about how real ship series are built and numbered, but of course if you believe that NCCs are random numbers, you can do anything you like and call them anything you want... You don't even have to invent sequential numbers if you're inventing your own fan starship class... Isn't that convenient for some people...
Regardless, Tech Fandom, Star Fleet Battles, and even Shane Johnson went with FJ's numbers because they are logically sequential and realistic... I also believe that at least one of the model kits in the 70s also advised FJ's numbers...but it's been a long time and I'm old and not as sharp as I used to be...
DITTO.
Lenny, did you see this:
http://culttvman.com/main/?p=3665
I liked it, had a lot of stuf about the models.
BTW, do you have a link to some of the info about this stuff?
I'd really like to see it, I've heard about those classes, but I didn't know the Enerprise herself was included in there. I love those kind of things. I know there was a refit to put some phasers on the bottom of the engineering hull and I heard about the main warp drives upgraded the first time but not the second time. It also seems the phasers themselves were upgraded as they fired "bursts" in most of the first season then beams in later seasons, (unless that was just a setting).
http://culttvman.com/main/?p=3665
I liked it, had a lot of stuf about the models.
BTW, do you have a link to some of the info about this stuff?
I'd really like to see it, I've heard about those classes, but I didn't know the Enerprise herself was included in there. I love those kind of things. I know there was a refit to put some phasers on the bottom of the engineering hull and I heard about the main warp drives upgraded the first time but not the second time. It also seems the phasers themselves were upgraded as they fired "bursts" in most of the first season then beams in later seasons, (unless that was just a setting).
He was never trying to adhere to Tech Fandom, so it's an unfair measuring stick. Like it or not, Tech Fandom is obsolete. It's influence is still with us today, but many of the details and concepts are no longer compatible with the current version of the Star Trek universe.
And Christopher's description of the NCC-1701's warp core was based on THIS cutaway which was seen on the USS Defiant NCC-1964 (hull number from the original "Tholian Web" script) in "In a Mirror, Darkly"
It was made by Doug Drexler... you may recognize the name from several of the old Tech Fandom booklets. He made it as a professional, and most notably designed Enterprise NX-01. He also did the CG for the first two New Voyages (now Phase II) fan films.
Lenny Nurdbol
Lieutenant Commander
Sorry, IMHO, I don't consider much of anything in E to be valid... It's damaged timeline, product of the Temporal Cold War and/or a pseudo-historical holonovel by Riker...
And NCC-1964 I find highly suspect a registry number...
(Besides, that cutaway came from a game called "Captain's Chair" which I consider Highly debatable and Far from authoritative!)...
Stictly IMHO, of course...
Lenny Nurdbol
Lieutenant Commander
Links? Checkout the Star Trek LCARS Database for one http://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/blueprints-main2.html (though it's far from incomplete, has lots of substandard scans of substandard sources, and even those are incomplete)... The main sources, outside of the Star Fleet Technical Manual by FJ, include the USS Enterprise Heavy Cruiser Evolution Blueprints (I Think they are in that Database link--if they are, GET THEM NOW!), the Federation Reference Series (Incomplete scans in that link, leaving out, among other things Lots and Lots of text pages), Ships of the Star Fleet Volume One (not to be confused with Jackill's or a Jackass calendar, which both borrow the name), and various other blueprint packs and publications like Starship Design, which operate within the same "universe" and use the same methodology, classes, and registries... Generally anything from Star Station Aurora, MastercoM Data Center, and Star Fleet Printing Office; all of which originated in the 1980s...
But let me just go back to the source materials and explain the logical behind it all... If you delve into the Technical Manual and turn to the TO titled Heavy Cruiser Class you'll see many ships listed and their registries... The first block represents the original Constitution class starships (and as previously noted somewhere around here, the Constellation and Republic have oddball registries because they were testbed upgrades of older classes), these original ships are numbered 1700 thru 1711... The next block of ships below it are designated Bonhomme Richard class and represent the next generation of heavy cruisers, an improved Constitution class if you will... They are numbered 1712 thru 1727, and the names come from a memo published in The Making of Star Trek for supplemental starship class names... So they are all basically Bird-picked in that regard... You may recognize some of these names: Excelsior, Saratoga, and Defiance... The first two are the original namesakes which were later lost Prior to the movie era, and their names were carried on by later ships... The "Defiance" is a typo of the Defiant lost in "The Tholian Web"--this is because it was originally named Defiance in TMOST (and Treklore says she was originally to be christened Defiance but later changed to Defiant)...
So what's the USS Defiant doing being listed as a Bonhomme Richard class starship if she's clearly Constitution class? The whole methodology behind Tech Fandom's interpretation is that these Bonhomme Richard class starships represent the series version of the Enterprise, while the Constitution class listed above represents the Enterprise as she appeared in the pilot episodes... That is, the older Constitutions were lated upgraded to the specs of the U.S.S. Bonhomme Richard which represents the production model most seen in TOS, so they are therefore all Constitution Class, from a certain point of view, and the Defiant is the only seen "new build" ship Built that way... The next block of 4 ships were later built as replacements for ships lost in the line of duty (built later, during the movie series as Endeavor class--based upon the rejected Star Trek Phase II series design), which I haven't the time to get into now... The largest block of ships which take up most of the page are the Achernar and Tikopai classes--they take up most of the page because they were initially ordered or projected at the time the TO was generated... The number of Achernar class starships was cut to a dozen odd hulls, while still retaining the first dozen or so names and NCCs, and the Tikopai class was delayed a decade as Star Fleet upgraded their older starships, made cutbacks, and introduced various new designs splitting the upgrade of heavy cruisers into various classes based off of proto-STTMP designs (all this is outlined and illustrated in the above sources)... This development was spawned by the breakthrough in linear warp drive (movie era nacelles!) which made higher speeds possible and required "new technology" upgrades everywhere (some manuals refer to the movie era ships as Class I-B or generally Starship II)... Anyway, to avoid any more confusion, various Constitutions and Bonhomme Richards were further upgraded to match the U.S.S. Achernar (NCC-1732) specs which represented the last great "old tech" upgrade of heavy cruisers which represents the Enterprise in her final TAS incarnation which fills in the remaining 5-year mission... This is Treknically what is represented in FJ's Booklet of General Plans...
So basically, to summarize:
Constitution Class - The Enterprise as she appeared in the pilot episodes... (Bloated bridge module, spired nacelles of the PB-31 design, less detail overall, less lighting, etc.)
Bonhomme Richard Class - The Enterprise as she appeared in the series... (Smaller bridge, more details like viewports, PB-32 nacelles with space warp generator "globes" astern, detailed hangar bay, phasers instead of laser banks, etc.)
Achernar Class - The Enterprise as she appeared in TAS (Post-TOS) up until being upgraded to the Enterprise Class configuration of ST-TMP... (Very visible deflector grid lines, visible phaser emplacements--and 6 of them, upper primary hull torpedo banks, flattened bridge, curved secondary hull, PB-47 engines for higher acceleration, etc)
And they are all a part of the "Constitution Group" so to speak, and can generally all be called Constitution Class by the layman...
I know this can be very confusing, which is why I generally don't like to discuss it much, especially in this day and age when everything is presented very simple, cut and dry... You know: Constitution is every ship in TOS, period, case-closed, with no discussion over the details and how the ships evolved...
So basically 80s fans took FJ's work to the next level... And they're still climbing...
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Lenny Nurdbol
Lieutenant Commander
Wow, thanks!
It's a matter of one building upon another and another, logically extrapolating and expanding the Treknical mythos...
For instance, the replacement ships for the 4 missing Constitution class cruisers were built as Endeavor class heavy cruisers (based upon taking the U.S.S. Endeavor, NCC-1716 a Bonhomme Richard class aside, and incorporating some unique changes which made her a class leader)... This is represented by the ship with chunky engine nacelle pylons based on the Star Trek Phase II prototype... MK IX/04 (the three previous classes being MK IX/I thru III)...
Sometimes the upgraded Enterprise isn't called an Enterprise class but Constitution (II) which is a misnomer... Originally the U.S.S. Constitution (NCC-1700) was to be the "new technology" lead ship for the movie series but, according to Files of SFC, she was damaged upon encountering the first K'T'Inga class Klingon battlecruiser, so her upgrade was delayed, and the Enterprise was the first ship--otherwise Constitution II would have been a more apt designation for the refitted class... Tech Fandom represents the upgraded U.S.S. Constitution as an early ST-TMP protyotype and several older Constitutions and Bonhomme Richards were refitted to these specs, while others were refitted to the Enterprise class specs... How were they chosen? Oldest ships get upgraded first... Oldest ships being generally represented by the highest NCC number (usually)... Another proto-TMP design is represented by the Tikopai class, finally placed back in production, looking much like the ST-TMP design but with less developed upper and lower sensor sensor domes and modules... All Tikopai class ships (NCC-1800 to 1832) are new build ships considered somwhat "cheaper" than building more of the Enterprise class... In the late 2280's, a new state-of-the-art heavy cruiser design was integrated into the same basic hull of the Enterprise class (since Star Fleet's R&D designers said she couldn't be beat for overall performance) and was to be christened the U.S.S. Levant...but then ST IV occurred and following the early loss of the Enterprise, she was renamed and renumbered 1701-A, and her class changed to Enterprise (II), with the few remaining older Enterprise class ships later authorized to be upgraded to match her specs, and I believe an additional 6 or 7 newbuilds completed this class which lasted to through the start of the next century...
Unfortunately, come circa 1990 when Paramound began to consolidate its hold, Tech Fandom was kind of outlawed... These are the loons who ranted "Unofficial! Unofficial" over and over again, steering fans away (which is why, in fact, the C word was invented in relation to Star Trek)... You could say that everything ever established was wiped clean as though it never existed, since TPTB weren't making money from it... So new tech guys came in, and reinvented everything new from the bottom up, virtually ignoring dozens upon dozens of these blueprints and manuals...
Only a few brave souls like myself fully appreciate the intricacy involved and the flawless logic applied to Star Fleet's shipbuilding scheme... Todays fans just say there's one and only one heavy cruiser class and leave it at that, believing that The Star Trek Encyclopedia holds The sum total of all Trek Knowledge...
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As I recall, John Eaves did the initial design sketches for NX-01. Doug I think built the first digital model and added all sorts of little details to the exterior. It's still impressive work, as he was originally a makeup artist, lobbied for a transfer to the art department, and learned how to use 3d software on his own time.
And thanks for the cutaway image, I drooled over it in the episode but couldn't get a good screenshot of it.
Lenny Nurdbol said:
Thanks, I remember that time. I think it was actually a little earlier when they realized that they could make money off of it again and they stopped all non profit making ventures that didn't pay them. It's their right to make a profit, but if they didn't have the abandonment mentality "Star Trek is dead, do what you want with it" in the early 70s like Gene did when he let FJ make the book in the first place so many people wouldn't have invested so much into it. Or even if they did, it would have been clearly something else, but there was nothing else so the fan project became very real to them. I hate when they throw all of the backstories out they don't like and declare they never happened. That's why Star Trek is an artifact to me. It will not continue, it is done. The owners of the name can use it on new stuff but it isn't it, it's something new using it's name. I love that it happened and I rewatch my 3 seasons and my animated season, but that's the end.
Why are you bringing race into this? Don't attempt to portray yourself as the victim of an unfair accusation of racism. You know damned well that I didn't accuse you of that. That's a cheap play, and you know it. Shame on you.
But you definitely got Okuda on the brain.
Holy cow! I Didn't Know Your True Identity Was Franz Joseph Schaubelt! It's An Honor To Meet You, Sir! I'm Assuming As Such, Because If, As You Say, Only Franz Joseph Is Worthy Of Being Listened To And That You Demand We Listen To You, Then You Must Be Franz Joseph!
Lenny Nurdbol
Lieutenant Commander
You brought Okuda and Jein up... Coincidentally they, you, and Quite noticeably your Avatar have all these factors in common... Don't make a big thing over it, I'm deliberately trying to avoid specific names since this is, after all, a thread pertaining to FJ... I didn't expect you to hunt down and ransack old messages...
Consequently, the timeframe here is the early to mid 1970s long before your pals...
I'm portraying myself as a victim of unfair...WHAT?
Look: forget it! Don't read my messages and I won't read yours, agreed?
