Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & books)

[sonak]

Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

BTW, labeling something 'military target' (pretty arbitrarily, in this case) does not give one a moral free pass; indeed, it's only a particularly poor attempt at justifying whatever.

No the justifying comes from the fact that it was either this or an invasion of Japan, and considering how most attacks on Japanese held territory in the war went that WEREN'T their country it's safe to say such an invasion may have been a blood bath on both sides.

And in this case its justifying it as the lesser of two evils.

this is historical myth. Japan was already on the verge of conditional surrender by the bombing of Hiroshima, they were using the USSR as a go-between. What they were concerned with was the preservation of the emperor. Dropping the a-bomb was about making sure that it was an unconditional surrender and it was about intimidating the USSR with what America could do. Either way, an invasion of the homeland would not have been necessary. And if they had needed to use the atom bomb, a demonstration in an uninhabited area could have been made.

 

[DWF]

Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

I'm kind of at a loss as do how Section 31 won the war, it was the cure that they were unwilling to give that in the end won the war. It was S31's actions that hastened the war's ending. Creating both a sickness and a cure gave the Federation (of which they are a part) a bargaining chip, a lever, to shorten the war.

More the threat of genocide really, if S31 sole purpose was genocide (which it wasn't) then why would S31 have created a cure?

It was a way of manipulating the Founders, which the Federation through conventional military attacks by Starfleet had no access to.

Who started the war? Bajor did by placing a colony in Dominion space and by calling attention to the wormhole.

The Bajor colony, while in the gamma quad, was far outside of Dominion space. So was the mouth of the wormhole.

It was the Founders that started the war.

If Section 31 had ever intended to use the cure why didn't they let it known that they had it instead of letting Earth and Betazed get attacked? And for that matter why hide the fact that they had the cure in the first place let alone the fact that they spread the virus in the first place? And where's the proof that the Bajorian colony was outside of Dominion space, In any event they had no knowledge of the wormhole until after people started coming over to their side of it, their confromtation with the Federation was aided by the discovery of the wormhole.

 

[T'Girl]

Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

If Section 31 had ever intended to use the cure why didn't they let it known that they had it instead of letting Earth and Betazed get attacked? And for that matter why hide the fact that they had the cure in the first place.

Let's see, likely Admiral Ross (as a member of S31) knew of the sickness and the cure. And S31 (at least claimed) that the President's inner circle included a S31 member.

Initially the sickness had to be kept a secret from the Founders so they wouldn't contain the spread, perhaps quarantine their own people who traveled to and from the alpha quad.

Even after knowledge of the sickness and the cure moved outside of S31, the Federation Council (who might have known about it from the start) made the decision to withhold it until they thought it wise to release it to the Founders.

At that point, it became a political decision.

 

[Avon]

Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

admiral ross wasn't a member, he just went along with the plan.

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

a cia agent has no lawful commission to be in my british house. so he's just an intruder, and i'm defending my home.

But is killing him really necessary, instead of oh I don't know calling the cops?

I mean since when has Britain turned into Texas?

thats a conservative government for you! ho ho!

but seriously i was just being over the top. if theres no accountability, no one knows what their objectives are. can you trust them when they say 'we're doing all this to protect you' ? and if the federation has no power over them are they even part of it anymore?

Pretty much. They're no more a part of the Federation than Cerberus is part of the Systems Alliance.

Section 31 is more a cabal than anything else.

 

[indolover]

Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

Well, morality doesn't exist and anything goes in life. I don't think Section 31's actions can really be deemed "wrong". I'm sure many Gamma Quadrant races would deem it poetic justice.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

Well, morality doesn't exist and anything goes in life.

Thankfully an overwhelming majority of humanity disagrees with this sentiment.

 

[indolover]

Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

Well, morality doesn't exist and anything goes in life.

Thankfully an overwhelming majority of humanity disagrees with this sentiment.

lol.. can you read minds?

 

[Avon]

Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

he read mine

 

[T'Girl]

Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

If Section 31 had ever intended to use the cure why didn't they let it known that they had it ...

Let's see, likely Admiral Ross (as a member of S31) knew of the sickness and the cure. And S31 (at least claimed) that the President's inner circle included a S31 member.

admiral ross wasn't a member, he just went along with the plan.

Debatable, my point stands. S31 might not have been informing every Captain, Commander and Ensign about the cure, but it's likely that some people higher up knew about it. Within the Admiralty, the Council, the President.
.

They're no more a part of the Federation than Cerberus is part of the Systems Alliance.

The people in S31 are apparently from among the member people of the Federation, how do you figure they're not "part of the Federation?"

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

Pretty much. They're no more a part of the Federation than Cerberus is part of the Systems Alliance.

Though at least Cerberus has their own ships, and armies, and secret bases, and a cooler magnificent bastard chess master boss, and pretty much everything else needed to make them a more effective and scary evil organization then section 31 could ever hope to be.

I mean seriously Section 31 couldn't do crap if they didn't have access to Starfleet toys and personal which is another reason they suck at this. It also makes their bitching about Starfleet idealism hypocritical since they can't do s@#t without either their unknowing help or coerced help.

I mean really why hasn't Starfleet told them to f@#k off already and see how "dangerous" they are when they have to use their own non existent resources. I'd give them a week at most before the organization fell apart.

Cerberus at lest is self sufficient for the most part

that the President's inner circle included a S31 member.

Actually its been taken to mean that they're SPYING on the president.

They're no more a part of the Federation than Cerberus is part of the Systems Alliance.

The people in S31 are apparently from among the member people of the Federation, how do you figure they're not "part of the Federation?"

The same way Cerberus isn't a part of the System's Alliance. they may use resources from it but they don't answer to it. Which makes them a rouge terrorist group.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

Well, morality doesn't exist and anything goes in life.

Thankfully an overwhelming majority of humanity disagrees with this sentiment.

lol.. can you read minds?

No. But I read. And study. I think critically and rationally. Then draw informed, intelligent conclusions. If you're interested in evidence, this would be a good place to begin.

 

[indolover]

Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

Thankfully an overwhelming majority of humanity disagrees with this sentiment.

lol.. can you read minds?

No. But I read. And study. I think critically and rationally. Then draw informed, intelligent conclusions. If you're interested in evidence, this would be a good place to begin.

Well critical thinking has shown me and frankly many Westerners that morality is non-existent, and that anything goes since nothing is absolute.

 

[Avon]

Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

you going to do the 'greed is good' speech from Wall Street?

 

[Greylock Crescent]

Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

Well critical thinking has shown me and frankly many Westerners that morality is non-existent, and that anything goes since nothing is absolute.

Heh ... in that case, those "many Westerners" are thoroughly ignoring (either willfully or naively) the evolution of the entire foundation of their civilization, dating back to the American and French Revolutions, the Magna Carta, Rome (including the teachings of Christ), and ancient Greece (among many other moral influences).

 

[R. Star]

Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

I suppose you agreed with John Calhoun's speech citing that slavery was morally acceptable and a fundamental good for the United States as well.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

^ To whom (or rather to which argument) is this comment directed?

 

[T'Girl]

Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

The same way Cerberus isn't a part of the System's Alliance. they may use resources from it but they don't answer to it. Which makes them a rouge terrorist group.

But the people who make up S31, are from within the Federation. Sloan is a human, iirc from Earth. Why would the hundred of billions of people from the many Member worlds have to "answer to" the Federation?

You make the Federation sound like a police state.

 

[Danger Ace]

Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

I think Section 31 often gets too much crap from fans, even though the overwhelming evidence in both from TV and the books show they have done a lot of good work for the Federation.

Please note: I respectfully do not include novels in my opinion as I, by choice, do not count them as canon.

I agree. I thought DS9's introduction of Section 31 was brilliant and fixed a lot of dipshit things incorporated into The Next Generation. The dovish unliteralism was inane and totally unrealistic - it wasn't even a noble ideal.

Then again I would have demoted Picard for not weaponizing Hugh and wholeheartedly agreed with the infecting of The Changlings with a genocidal virus.

I mean, I loved "Star Trek" since the start and loved the future it suggested. None of which included a "peace at all costs and sacrifices" ideology. You strove for peace. A peace built upon a foundation of mutual benefit and respect - not one based on fear or paid for by a loss of self-determination.

BTW, where did that come from? What moron came-up with the Federation signing a treaty that allowed there self-declared antagonists to develope stealth technology unrestricted while they could not even research ways by which to detect such things? How is that anything but stoopid! And what Next Gen imbecile thought the pinnacle of a civilization's moral developement lay in their ability to talk themselves into laying down and excepting extinction?

I start off every episode of DS9 with a moment of silent praise for RDM and company for giving us Section 31.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

My biggest gripe about Section 31 when i was watching DS9 was it was completely counter to Roddenberry's vision of the future. While I was not opposed to an organization like Section 31 exisiting. The Romulans have the black ops Tal Shiar, and the Romulan military, civillians and other governments know about them. The Obsidian Order was black ops for the Cardassians, and again other governments knew about them. No one outside select few Star Fleet officers who have had interactions with Section 31 and possibly the entire Star Fleet Admiralty and Star Fleet Command knowsabout Section 31. Why so secretive? The fact that the Star Fleet Command would not confirm nor deny it's existence in DS9 'Inquisition' is very telling. While at the time I dismissed the line as writers trying to sound cool using a military phrase usually reserved for secrets and kills, but now after watching Enterprise and comparing Harris' and Sloan's actions i think I understand what Section 31 is.

Section 31 is an organization that acts to preserve and protect humanity. Not the Federation, but humanity. It's in the Earth Star Fleet charter in ENT, all Section 31 members are human we've seen, they are willing to take extreme actions such as genocide of an entire species to win a war, murder and extortion are not above them, and Star Fleet doesn't lift a finger to reprimand them for any of it.

I think fans would be more comfortable with Section 31 if there were public and not a cloak and dagger organization under Star Fleet. Star Fleet Command can say yes they exist but what they do is classified. Like the CIA and MI6. We know they infiltrate terrorist organizations, we know they use drones that kill the civilian populations of countries each occupy, and we know they lead assassinations against nuclear scientists in Iran and other countries. That's Section 31 in the Trekverse.