Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & books)

[Avon]

Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

the upside is you can vaporise any section 31 agents you come across and the federation is like 'who was he? not my problem!'

if only you could do that when you kill a CIA agent thats broken into your apartment to spy on the mosque across the street. sigh.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

No, secretly murdering and assassinating people is not acceptable in the name of practical gain for your side, period. Maybe there are some exceptions for extreme scenarios like ITPM where billions of lives are in the balance. But for the cited example of Koval, the goal was not saving lives, the goal was giving the Federation political control over Romulus after the war. It's akin to the way the US aided military coups against democracies in order to serve their oil interests. And the virus would be like winning a war by nuking the entire country.

You must consider Henry Kissinger your personal hero, and consider Cerberus the heroes of Mass Effect.

 

[randomfan86]

Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

No, secretly murdering and assassinating people is not acceptable in the name of practical gain for your side, period. Maybe there are some exceptions for extreme scenarios like ITPM where billions of lives are in the balance. But for the cited example of Koval, the goal was not saving lives, the goal was giving the Federation political control over Romulus after the war. It's akin to the way the US aided military coups against democracies in order to serve their oil interests. And the virus would be like winning a war by nuking the entire country.

You must consider Henry Kissinger your personal hero, and consider Cerberus the heroes of Mass Effect.

Well that's quite the long-game you accuse Section 31 of playing. So they knew Koval would eventually bring in the Romulans into the war...they knew they would win the war...and then the real purpose was political control? Was this in the books? I mean I certainty could see where that would be a benefit but I think their interests were more short-term.

I concur with Cerebus, and agree Kisinger was a positive force. If its either nuking the entirety of the other country or being enslaved by the despotic regime of the that other country...at least with the US, I can guarantee you its the former every time.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

If its either nuking the entirety of the other country or being enslaved by the despotic regime of the that other country...at least with the US, I can guarantee you its the former every time.

The USA already proved it needs FAR less incentive than all but guaranteed enslavement by another country in order to resort to nuking said country.
A smaller casualty count for its army is more than sufficient.

 

[randomfan86]

Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

If its either nuking the entirety of the other country or being enslaved by the despotic regime of the that other country...at least with the US, I can guarantee you its the former every time.

The USA already proved it needs FAR less incentive than all but guaranteed enslavement by another country in order to resort to nuking said country.
A smaller casualty count for its army is more than sufficient.

No disagreement, but lets be fair: The countries with the so-called "No First Use Policy"....that is pure pretense. If put in the same situation as the United States was in, they would use it in a heartbeat. In the end, it was the right decision by any calculus you want to use in that it saved both Japanese and American lives and brought forth the inevitable conclusion of American victory.

 

[randomfan86]

Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

Wait he's using the books to defend Section 31, the same books that show how they are considerably incompetent and as such probably a major threat to the federation due to their bungling almost screwing them over?

I only used one example in favor and I used one example in the books against...if you want to scratch both of them and just go with the other ones go ahead.

But, it'd be more productive to the discussion if you could throw out a couple examples no?

 

[randomfan86]

Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

Sorry, that's a copout. Either you have the high ideals and accept the consequences of them or you don't and you're willing to get your hands dirty. Creating Section 31 to do your dirty work like genocide and executing elected officials while claiming morality and high ideals is hypocritical.

In the Trekverse, both the Obsedion Order and the Tal Shiar were shown to be de facto rogue organizations without accountability as well. The CIA for a period of time in the last century had a lot of rogue activities as well. The CIA was never held to account for those activities. Within the CIA itself, there is a culture of nonaccountability (its the opposite...one of the guys who destroyed the torture tapes is getting promoted and a whistleblower on torture is going to jail). The Federation just doesn't bother with the pretense, so in a way, they are less hypocritical. Don't hate on them.

The Obsidian Order and the Tal Shiar were official arms of the Cardassian and Romulan states. They were openly expected to investigate and conduct overt operations. Your comparison is flawed.

That said, Section 31 is an interesting idea, however it undermines the Roddenberry vision. People can say it's unrealistic, however that misses the point since no artistic work has to be wholly realistic.

It might only be explicitly stated with section 31, but all three orgs in practice operate as rogue orgs without accountability. The only difference was two of them were openly known to the public while section 31 wasn't. But all of them were officially sanctioned.

 

[randomfan86]

Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

Then why didn't Starfleet Intelligence do it first?

Because writers didn't think of it or thought it would be "kewler" to have an above-the-law agency running amuck within the Federation.

yup, it's the second one. It's a "rule of drama" outside-universe explanation, not a logical one. The writers wanted to create new plotlines with this organization, THAT's the real reason they didn't just have Starfleet Intelligence do it.

Then they could have their cake and eat it too-show something related to the Federation that was dark and amoral, but NOT take the risk of having it actually be anything officially part of them.

I don't know...I see them as being officially part of the Federation in the sense that they are sanctioned in the charter. You might be right about the reasoning, but if that's the case...that is indeed kind of lame.

 

[randomfan86]

Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

I'm kind of at a loss as do how Section 31 won the war, it was the cure that they were unwilling to give that in the end won the war. And there was no accountability for Section 31's attempted use of genocide to end the war, If anything in creating Section 31 it gave the writers an out in allowing genocide to bve used and not have it blamed on the Federation.

Lets be fair, who started the war? Who was trying to enslave the other side? Who openly talked about destroying Earth? Don't play the game if you don't want to get hurt.

If they were to be held to account, they would be given medals and showered with praise.

Oto curing the female changeling was what helped win them the war. If there was no virus, that wouldn't have happened and a bloody last battle might have ensued costing millions of lives. Furthermore, it was the ultimate insurance policy in case things went downhill or remained a stalemate.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

If its either nuking the entirety of the other country or being enslaved by the despotic regime of the that other country...at least with the US, I can guarantee you its the former every time.

The USA already proved it needs FAR less incentive than all but guaranteed enslavement by another country in order to resort to nuking said country.
A smaller casualty count for its army is more than sufficient.

No disagreement, but lets be fair: The countries with the so-called "No First Use Policy"....that is pure pretense. If put in the same situation as the United States was in, they would use it in a heartbeat. In the end, it was the right decision by any calculus you want to use in that it saved both Japanese and American lives and brought forth the inevitable conclusion of American victory.

First - USA used the atomic bombs because it wanted to prevent further russian advances and to reduce the casualty number of its own soldiers (the relevant decision makers of the time admitted as much).
It didn't care in the least about reducing the number of japanese casualties or about any moral calculus along those lines - indeed, the japanese cities were chosen due to their geography (in order to focus the explosion, ensuring greater destruction/number of dead civilians) and the fact that many buildings were made of wood (in order to burn, again ensuring greater destruction/number of dead civilians).

Second - your ~'other countries would do the same' - is juvenile excusism, based on no evidence at all. Merely the unfounded rhetorical statement that ~'the other guys are equally bad/worse'.

 

[randomfan86]

Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

Second - your ~'other countries would do the same' - is juvenile excusism, based on no evidence at all. Merely the unfounded rhetorical statement that ~'the other guys are equally bad/worse'.

You really think the PLA who was more than happy to initiate Tienamen wouldn't hesitate?

 

[Edit_XYZ]

Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

Second - your ~'other countries would do the same' - is juvenile excusism, based on no evidence at all. Merely the unfounded rhetorical statement that ~'the other guys are equally bad/worse'.

You really think the PLA who was more than happy to initiate Tienamen wouldn't hesitate?

In 'other countries' I include primarily liberal democracies with nuclear capabilities - as USA is. Your ~'other countries would do the same' has no foundament in facts when it comes to them.
Your rhetoric is doubtful even when it comes to China or Russia.

Only when one looks at the likes of North Korea or Iran can one claim what you did with any validity. Your statement can only pass when measured against such low standards.

 

[DWF]

Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

I'm kind of at a loss as do how Section 31 won the war, it was the cure that they were unwilling to give that in the end won the war. And there was no accountability for Section 31's attempted use of genocide to end the war, If anything in creating Section 31 it gave the writers an out in allowing genocide to bve used and not have it blamed on the Federation.

Lets be fair, who started the war? Who was trying to enslave the other side? Who openly talked about destroying Earth? Don't play the game if you don't want to get hurt.

If they were to be held to account, they would be given medals and showered with praise.

Oto curing the female changeling was what helped win them the war. If there was no virus, that wouldn't have happened and a bloody last battle might have ensued costing millions of lives. Furthermore, it was the ultimate insurance policy in case things went downhill or remained a stalemate.

Who started the war? Bajor did by placing a colony in Dominion space and by calling attention to the wormhole. And no I wouldn't want to give metals to people wanting to use genocide to stop a war.

 

[T'Girl]

Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

indeed, the japanese cities were chosen due to their geography (in order to focus the explosion, ensuring greater destruction/number of dead civilians

If that were the case (which it isn't), then Nagasaki with it's "lumpy" topography would never have been on the list.

Both both Hiroshima and Nagasaki were chosen because they were military targets.

I'm kind of at a loss as do how Section 31 won the war, it was the cure that they were unwilling to give that in the end won the war.

It was S31's actions that hastened the war's ending. Creating both a sickness and a cure gave the Federation (of which they are a part) a bargaining chip, a lever, to shorten the war.

And there was no accountability for Section 31's attempted use of genocide to end the war ...

More the threat of genocide really, if S31 sole purpose was genocide (which it wasn't) then why would S31 have created a cure?

It was a way of manipulating the Founders, which the Federation through conventional military attacks by Starfleet had no access to.

... 'who was he? not my problem!'

if only you could do that when you kill a CIA agent ...

Well you could say that (in a court of law) at your murder trial. Or you could stand up as a honest man and admit you murdered a government employee in the lawful commission of their duties.

That said, Section 31 is an interesting idea, however it undermines the Roddenberry vision.

I seriously doubt a multi-season long war was part of Roddenberry's vision either.

Who started the war? Bajor did by placing a colony in Dominion space and by calling attention to the wormhole.

The Bajor colony, while in the gamma quad, was far outside of Dominion space. So was the mouth of the wormhole.

It was the Founders that started the war.

 

[Avon]

Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

Well you could say that (in a court of law) at your murder trial. Or you could stand up as a honest man and admit you murdered government employee in the lawful commission of their duties.

a cia agent has no lawful commission to be in my british house. so he's just an intruder, and i'm defending my home.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

indeed, the japanese cities were chosen due to their geography (in order to focus the explosion, ensuring greater destruction/number of dead civilians

If that were the case (which it isn't), then Nagasaki with it's "lumpy" topography would never have been on the list.

Both both Hiroshima and Nagasaki were chosen because they were military targets.

Look up Hiroshima and the reasons for it being chosen.
Plus, you forgot to address the part about the wooden constructions (generally, you seem to willfully ignore bits of history - they not fitting your attempts to morally bleach events).

BTW, labeling something 'military target' (pretty arbitrarily, in this case) does not give one a moral free pass; indeed, it's only a particularly poor attempt at justifying whatever.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

becuase a lot of what they did was idiotic and/or an extreme over reaction.

Yet it was S31's actions (and not those of Starfleet Intelligence) that ended the Dominion War sooner than solely military action would have.

Yes, one whole battle why section 31 truly saved the Federation some effort there

Obviously the attempted genocide was the only way to get the Dominion to give up a lost cause.

I mean its not like they could promise safe passage or some other deal to a still rational Founder, no they had to use the promise of saving her species to a probably unhinged Founder who was ready to go out in the blaze of glory

Well you could say that (in a court of law) at your murder trial. Or you could stand up as a honest man and admit you murdered government employee in the lawful commission of their duties.

a cia agent has no lawful commission to be in my british house. so he's just an intruder, and i'm defending my home.

But is killing him really necessary, instead of oh I don't know calling the cops?

I mean since when has Britain turned into Texas?

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

BTW, labeling something 'military target' (pretty arbitrarily, in this case) does not give one a moral free pass; indeed, it's only a particularly poor attempt at justifying whatever.

No the justifying comes from the fact that it was either this or an invasion of Japan, and considering how most attacks on Japanese held territory in the war went that WEREN'T their country it's safe to say such an invasion may have been a blood bath on both sides.

And in this case its justifying it as the lesser of two evils.

 

[Avon]

Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

Well you could say that (in a court of law) at your murder trial. Or you could stand up as a honest man and admit you murdered government employee in the lawful commission of their duties.

a cia agent has no lawful commission to be in my british house. so he's just an intruder, and i'm defending my home.

But is killing him really necessary, instead of oh I don't know calling the cops?

I mean since when has Britain turned into Texas?

thats a conservative government for you! ho ho!

but seriously i was just being over the top. if theres no accountability, no one knows what their objectives are. can you trust them when they say 'we're doing all this to protect you' ? and if the federation has no power over them are they even part of it anymore?

 

[Edit_XYZ]

Re: Section 31 is a positive for the Federation (spoilers from TV & bo

BTW, labeling something 'military target' (pretty arbitrarily, in this case) does not give one a moral free pass; indeed, it's only a particularly poor attempt at justifying whatever.

No the justifying comes from the fact that it was either this or an invasion of Japan, and considering how most attacks on Japanese held territory in the war went that WEREN'T their country it's safe to say such an invasion may have been a blood bath on both sides.

And in this case its justifying it as the lesser of two evils.

I already covered this argument:
"USA used the atomic bombs because it wanted to prevent further russian advances and to reduce the casualty number of its own soldiers (the relevant decision makers of the time admitted as much).
It didn't care in the least about reducing the number of japanese casualties or about any moral calculus along those lines - indeed, the japanese cities were chosen due to their geography (in order to focus the explosion, ensuring greater destruction/number of dead civilians) and to the fact that many buildings were made of wood (in order to burn, again ensuring greater destruction/number of dead civilians)."

Plus, it's doubtful that an invasion of Japan would have been even necessary - let alone be more costly in human lives than the atomic bombings.