When did voyager go wrong?

[Melakon]

The holodeck concept still gives me problems since the TNG days when it comes to food and drink. Originally it was presented as everything being photons and force fields. Then there's mention of replicator technology also involved. I used to think everything in the environment was simulated, including edibles. But with replicator technology, it means there might be an entire banquet table laid out, though all you eat is an olive.

 

[SonOfMogh]

The holodeck concept still gives me problems since the TNG days when it comes to food and drink. Originally it was presented as everything being photons and force fields. Then there's mention of replicator technology also involved. I used to think everything in the environment was simulated, including edibles. But with replicator technology, it means there might be an entire banquet table laid out, though all you eat is an olive.

I think the way it works is that the computer is sensitive enough to anticipate what you are going to do and quick enough to adapt to what you're doing. For example if you see a banquet in front of you, it is nothing but a simulation, you reach for something and the projection hides the replication of the item you are going for, by the time your hand reaches it, you're grabbing a real replicated item. If you put it back down and walk away, the computer takes that energy back and it once again becomes nothing more than an image.

If really would have to work like that, for example you always hear the joke about the person who has to clean out the holodeck after the orgies etc, but the reality is if you swallow any bodily fluid of a holographic person, it can't be good for you if that suddenly disappears from your stomach when you leave. Instead it would be replicated, and anything you leave in the holographic person is going to be broken down in the same way you put used plates back in the replicator.

If this were the case a holographic person would be part replicated matter part projection in some cases.

 

[R. Star]

Yeah, I gotta agree Janeway stepping up as the inexperienced first officer would've been way more dramatic. Really in my opinion they did her and the story a disservice by having her be... by her own words... "larger than life." They made her have to be so absolute in her authority, and make sure the audience knows it, that they had to manufacture dilemma's and have her "make the call" to resolve them time after time. As if making her decisive and authoritative would somehow compensate for her being female. Unfortunately all this really did was make her look silly at best and downright insane sometimes. She would've seemed far more human and sympathetic if she showed signs of weakness and doubt more often. Instead of just seemingly making the call without even thinking things over half the time.

I also definitely agree that the Maquis were an underused element. This was supposed to be part of the premise of the show, a divided crew having to work together despite it all to get home. Yet the number of episodes where the Maquis are a major factor is a single digit number. Heck a couple of them are holodeck/distorted reality episodes. Really by season 2 they were just all frankly assimilated into Starfleet. Personally if I was one of the Maquis, I'd be rather resentful that I was pretty much conscripted into a military I don't care for and my captain blatantly states on numerous occasions she's willing to sacrifice my life for values I don't believe in.

As for the Cardassian officer bit? Heck... all they'd have to do with that is not make Seska join the Kazon, but get found out anyways. That would've been way more interesting and dramatic than just having her become another generic bad guy(though I suppose the evil impregnating herself with Chakotay's kid was original... and bizarre). I think Star Trek's always been way too human(way too western) centralized. If there's supposed to be this big galaxy with the good guys being a multiraced Federation... why are 75% of everyone humans? Having Seska around as an experienced officer would be interesting. She'd bring another viewpoint to the table, and create tension and drama with both the Starfleet and Maquis people not trusting her.

 

[SonOfMogh]

Yeah, I gotta agree Janeway stepping up as the inexperienced first officer would've been way more dramatic. Really in my opinion they did her and the story a disservice by having her be... by her own words... "larger than life." They made her have to be so absolute in her authority, and make sure the audience knows it, that they had to manufacture dilemma's and have her "make the call" to resolve them time after time. As if making her decisive and authoritative would somehow compensate for her being female. Unfortunately all this really did was make her look silly at best and downright insane sometimes. She would've seemed far more human and sympathetic if she showed signs of weakness and doubt more often. Instead of just seemingly making the call without even thinking things over half the time.

It's a funny one, until the other poster responded to me it hadn't really dawned on me to even consider her gender, but thinking about it they were probably wary of having 3 strong male captains followed by 1 weak female one. It's unfortunate they'd not had a female lead before so this wasn't a concern, because it's the only show you could do it on. If the captain of an AQ vessel wasn't quite up to the task they'd simply be replaced. There were all sorts of opportunities to have flawed people making mistakes on this show.

 

[Anwar]

The problem with the Maquis was that the source of their conflict, the DMZ, was now 75 years away. The Maquis were the enemies of Cardassia, not the Federation, and whatever negative feelings they had for the Feds wasn't going to blind them to the fact that these were the only familiar folks around for decades. It wouldn't have been productive for the two crews to be that combative to one another the whole way through.

And even if they were, the tensions would've died down after 1-2 years. If they kept it up after that, then they had to have serious mental issues and they'd likely never get home.

What the show needed was another plot to drive the stories beyond "Going home" which could never be accomplished because...the show would be over.

Voyager lacking an actual plot beyond "lost ship" is one of the core problems. And "Lost Ship" isn't a sustainable premise.

 

[SonOfMogh]

The problem with the Maquis was that the source of their conflict, the DMZ, was now 75 years away. The Maquis were the enemies of Cardassia, not the Federation, and whatever negative feelings they had for the Feds wasn't going to blind them to the fact that these were the only familiar folks around for decades. It wouldn't have been productive for the two crews to be that combative to one another the whole way through.

And even if they were, the tensions would've died down after 1-2 years. If they kept it up after that, then they had to have serious mental issues and they'd likely never get home.

What the show needed was another plot to drive the stories beyond "Going home" which could never be accomplished because...the show would be over.

Voyager lacking an actual plot beyond "lost ship" is one of the core problems. And "Lost Ship" isn't a sustainable premise.

I do agree that the tensions would die down after a couple of years, but imagine the stories you could get out of that 2 year period.

I'd say after things become more comfortable, it's the ideal time to pull a "Year Of Hell" scenario. Have a prolonged, shocking tragedy that Voyager barely survives. Have the ship be pushed to it's limits and many valuable crewmembers perish. The surviving crew would come out of this a solidified unit, regardless of where their original loyalties were.

Then you have fresh drama with Voyager needing to find assistance to get back on the road, possibly taking on exhiled alien outcasts to fill out the crew, which may lead to a clash of cultures etc. It is always going to be difficult to introduce new supporting players to Voyager, recurring enemies will never be given the time they need, so something like this might keep it fresh.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Kathryn was their executioner. Photon torpedoes were not enough. She had her ship especially armed with tricobolt torpedos because her target that week had to be completely removed form the board whether the Maquis were in chains in her brig or not.

 

[Anwar]

That's what makes the "Lost Ship" thing unsustainable and uninteresting after a while. TOS was going to do the same "Lost Ship" thing until Roddenberry realized it wouldn't work.

What they should've done is make them truly lost to the point that they don't know how to get back to known Space, or have there be something keeping them from going home. That gives them reason to do genuine exploring and flesh out the area.

For example, by the time they can go home or at least begin to, the 8472 aliens have begun an invasion of our Universe and then they go through a time portal that shows them that in the future, if they don't do something NOW, the 8472 will overwhelm and destroy the Galaxy including the Federation. So they have to put off going home so to put together a Delta Federation to stop them first. That's the driving plot of the show.

 

[SonOfMogh]

That's what makes the "Lost Ship" thing unsustainable and uninteresting after a while. TOS was going to do the same "Lost Ship" thing until Roddenberry realized it wouldn't work.

What they should've done is make them truly lost to the point that they don't know how to get back to known Space, or have there be something keeping them from going home. That gives them reason to do genuine exploring and flesh out the area.

For example, by the time they can go home or at least begin to, the 8472 aliens have begun an invasion of our Universe and then they go through a time portal that shows them that in the future, if they don't do something NOW, the 8472 will overwhelm and destroy the Galaxy including the Federation. So they have to put off going home so to put together a Delta Federation to stop them first. That's the driving plot of the show.

Yeah I guess being truly lost would work, although all it would take is to acknowledge that Voyager cannot travel far without scouting for supplies etc and the show can retain it's original premise and still have a reason to explore and build relationships.

I'm not a big fan of driving plots like the one you mentioned. I personally think the best shows either don't have one, or the characterisatation, writing and acting is so good that the show outgrows it's plot to the point it actually becomes the least interesting element.

 

[Melakon]

If really would have to work like that, for example you always hear the joke about the person who has to clean out the holodeck after the orgies etc, but the reality is if you swallow any bodily fluid of a holographic person, it can't be good for you if that suddenly disappears from your stomach when you leave. Instead it would be replicated, and anything you leave in the holographic person is going to be broken down in the same way you put used plates back in the replicator.

Replicated spitswaps with a hologram is something I'd never considered. Then there's the issue of whether the glass and the drink it contains are real or simulated, same with food when you're carrying the plate.

 

[Brit]

Hey thanks for reading my essay!

I respect all opinions, can't all be alike, just my thoughts

You are welcome, and thanks for your answer because you are right, it is totally a personal opinion when you get right down to it.

 

[Anwar]

That's what makes the "Lost Ship" thing unsustainable and uninteresting after a while. TOS was going to do the same "Lost Ship" thing until Roddenberry realized it wouldn't work.

What they should've done is make them truly lost to the point that they don't know how to get back to known Space, or have there be something keeping them from going home. That gives them reason to do genuine exploring and flesh out the area.

For example, by the time they can go home or at least begin to, the 8472 aliens have begun an invasion of our Universe and then they go through a time portal that shows them that in the future, if they don't do something NOW, the 8472 will overwhelm and destroy the Galaxy including the Federation. So they have to put off going home so to put together a Delta Federation to stop them first. That's the driving plot of the show.

Yeah I guess being truly lost would work, although all it would take is to acknowledge that Voyager cannot travel far without scouting for supplies etc and the show can retain it's original premise and still have a reason to explore and build relationships.

I'm not a big fan of driving plots like the one you mentioned. I personally think the best shows either don't have one, or the characterisatation, writing and acting is so good that the show outgrows it's plot to the point it actually becomes the least interesting element.

All the "Lost Ship" shows of the last 40 or so years that are worth remembering (Blake's Seven, LEXX, Farscape) ended up needing a series plot to keep things going. "Gilligan's Island in Space" wears itself out after 2 seasons at best.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Gilligan's planet only lasted 13 episodes... Although Josie and the Pussy Cats in outer Space lasted almost 3 years... And then they put Fonzie in Space with Laverne and Shirley.

Did you know that there was a serious cocaine problem in the entertainment industry during the 80s?

 

[Melakon]

And "Lost in Space" itself was falling into the toilet halfway through the first season after they decided Dr. Smith was the star.

 

[Harvey]

That's what makes the "Lost Ship" thing unsustainable and uninteresting after a while. TOS was going to do the same "Lost Ship" thing until Roddenberry realized it wouldn't work.

Whatever the virtues of the premise, this part simply isn't true. The original show was never going to end up "lost in space."

 

[lennier1]

That's what makes the "Lost Ship" thing unsustainable and uninteresting after a while. TOS was going to do the same "Lost Ship" thing until Roddenberry realized it wouldn't work.

Whatever the virtues of the premise, this part simply isn't true. The original show was never going to end up "lost in space."

Probably not so much "lost" as "so deep into uncharted territory, they don't have a convenient connection to back home".

 

[Harvey]

That's what makes the "Lost Ship" thing unsustainable and uninteresting after a while. TOS was going to do the same "Lost Ship" thing until Roddenberry realized it wouldn't work.

Whatever the virtues of the premise, this part simply isn't true. The original show was never going to end up "lost in space."

Probably not so much "lost" as "so deep into uncharted territory, they don't have a convenient connection to back home".

Although the original never went back to Earth, as early as Roddenberry's 1964 pitch document the Enterprise's mission included providing assistance to established Earth colonies.

 

[lennier1]

Whatever the virtues of the premise, this part simply isn't true. The original show was never going to end up "lost in space."

Probably not so much "lost" as "so deep into uncharted territory, they don't have a convenient connection to back home".

Although the original never went back to Earth, as early as Roddenberry's 1964 pitch document the Enterprise's mission included providing assistance to established Earth colonies.

Not so much "here be dragons" as "new frontier". It's five in the morning. So early I don't really give a shit about semantics.

 

[Anwar]

Whatever the virtues of the premise, this part simply isn't true. The original show was never going to end up "lost in space."

Probably not so much "lost" as "so deep into uncharted territory, they don't have a convenient connection to back home".

Although the original never went back to Earth, as early as Roddenberry's 1964 pitch document the Enterprise's mission included providing assistance to established Earth colonies.

But the point is that Roddenberry realized that a show that has a hook and a reason for everything that happens (Missions for the Federation) was better than a show where there is no external environment or reasons for things that happen.

 

[C.E. Evans]

That's what makes the "Lost Ship" thing unsustainable and uninteresting after a while. TOS was going to do the same "Lost Ship" thing until Roddenberry realized it wouldn't work.

Whatever the virtues of the premise, this part simply isn't true. The original show was never going to end up "lost in space."

Probably not so much "lost" as "so deep into uncharted territory, they don't have a convenient connection to back home".

In that regard, it wasn't necessary to strand them in the Delta Quadrant. Space is big. Even a distant border of Federation space--a mere year or two away from Earth at maximum warp perhaps--would have been sufficient. Out on the border, there still would have been opportunity for the ship to encounter new aliens and be far from Earth. They'd be close enough to communicate with Starfleet and hear things that are going on back home (such as the Dominion War), but they'd still be too far away to go back there in a timely fashion.

Although the original never went back to Earth, as early as Roddenberry's 1964 pitch document the Enterprise's mission included providing assistance to established Earth colonies.

But the point is that Roddenberry realized that a show that has a hook and a reason for everything that happens (Missions for the Federation) was better than a show where there is no external environment or reasons for things that happen.

Agreed. An exploration mission was just a reason why the Enterprise was out there, but the ship really did many other kinds of missions for its country along the way. Such missions sometimes brought the Enterprise to a Federation starbase, colony, or member world where we saw other aspects of Federation society and where other kinds of stories (non-alien of the week) can be told. This was true for TNG as much as it was for TOS, IMO.