"The Dark Knight Rises" Review and Discussion Thread (spoilers)

[Gaith]

this organization would have not been more believable if it had a religious origin

You make a strong case, and while I respectfully disagree on that point, I think we're getting into dead horse territory here.


... As I said before, some people think the LoS makes a lick of sense, and others, myself included, don't. Even if we do accept their basic premise, however, that mass murder is a coherent if misguided tool to promote justice and reduce suffering, is that agenda really any more compelling or intellectually stimulating than Sebastian Shaw's, or Whiplash's?

I don't think so, but a movie can have one-dimensional villains and still be deep and sophisticated. The Nazis in Casablanca, after all, didn't have any depth to speak of. Question is, then, is there anything really meaty going on elsewhere in TDKR, or is it all just pomp and atmosphere?

 

[Aeronef]

Ah, but the "letter of transit" felt consistent with the movie's world,

Among other problems, the letters of transit are described as cosigned by General de Gaulle. And one can't treat the reality of Casablanca as quite as arbitrary as a genre film. They are a nonsense plot device, pure and simple, and the film works in spite of them being nonsense.

I'm very late to this party, and it's a very minor point. But the letters of transit are described as being signed by General Weygand, which Peter Lorre pronounces as "Vay-GON."

General Maxime Weygand was the Vichy Government's delegate-general to its North-African colonies. So, while they are indeed a highly convenient plot device, they're not quite as nonsensical as you indicate.

 

[Agent Richard07]

A few more observations after having seen the movie again…

- Fox couldn't have stopped Bane by flooding the area containing the bomb. Bane had already set everything up and just needed Fox's hand print.

- Batman diverted attention from Bane during the chase after the stock exchange incident. The ploice probably could have caught him if they hadn't decided to go after Batman.

- Kevin Smith discusses the movie here…

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6W_PoL-dXf0[/yt]

I disagree with one of his points. After having watched the trilogy all at once, I got the impression that Bruce hung up the cowl due to a combination of events in The Dark Knight, not just Rachel's death. Perhaps the "damage" done as Batman had gone far enough. And the job of rounding up the organized crime bosses was done anyway, so why not hang it all up.

 

[Captrek]

He talks for an hour and a half about the movie? Wow.

Batman is wanted for the murder of Harvey Dent and five others, including two cops. How did that happen? Jim Gordon said, “Batman killed these people” and everybody just accepted that? What was the supposed motive? What was the supposed evidence? Did Gordon claim to have witnessed all the killings?

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

If Bruce hung up the cowl after TDK, why build a Batcave?

 

[Gaith]

^ And, as Honest Trailers points out, why didn't they just blame it all on Joker and his cronies - you know, the guys who'd been randomly killing people all throughout TDK?

 

[Captrek]

^ The Joker knows the truth about Dent. Since the lie apparently works until Bane spills the beans eight years later, that means the Joker was silenced, or he played along with the lie.

I should probably buy Greg’s book. Does it address these questions?

 

[Trekker4747]

^ The Joker knows the truth about Dent. Since the lie apparently works until Bane spills the beans eight years later, that means the Joker was silenced, or he played along with the lie.

I should probably buy Greg’s book. Does it address these questions?

That or anything the Joker said or claimed was dismissed as being the ramblings of a lunatic. I mean why NOT pin everything on him in order to preserve both the reputations of Dent and Batman? Shadier things are done and, really, in a round-about way the Joker was at fault. So pin it on him, detain him forever without a trial under the USA PATRIOT Act or something, toss him in Arkham and throw away the key.

A few more observations after having seen the movie again…

- Fox couldn't have stopped Bane by flooding the area containing the bomb. Bane had already set everything up and just needed Fox's hand print.

- Batman diverted attention from Bane during the chase after the stock exchange incident. The ploice probably could have caught him if they hadn't decided to go after Batman.

- Kevin Smith discusses the movie here…

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6W_PoL-dXf0[/yt]

I disagree with one of his points. After having watched the trilogy all at once, I got the impression that Bruce hung up the cowl due to a combination of events in The Dark Knight, not just Rachel's death. Perhaps the "damage" done as Batman had gone far enough. And the job of rounding up the organized crime bosses was done anyway, so why not hang it all up.

I watched that the otherday and pretty much agreed with everything Smith said. Loved how they kept imitating the Bane voice.

 

[Captrek]

^ The Joker knows the truth about Dent. Since the lie apparently works until Bane spills the beans eight years later, that means the Joker was silenced, or he played along with the lie.

I should probably buy Greg’s book. Does it address these questions?

That or anything the Joker said or claimed was dismissed as being the ramblings of a lunatic.

That possibility occurred to me as well, and I dismissed it as inconsistent with character and story. Considering how manipulative and successful he the Joker is at everything else, it’s inconceivable that he couldn’t find a way to puncture the lie if he wanted to.

We can even use that to rationalize the decision to pin the killings on Batman. Knowing that the Joker can undo any lie they tell about the murders, the only lie that can succeed is a lie the Joker would like and not want to ruin.

Of course, we still have the question of how the lie is established in the first place.

I mean why NOT pin everything on him in order to preserve both the reputations of Dent and Batman? Shadier things are done and, really, in a round-about way the Joker was at fault. So pin it on him, detain him forever without a trial under the USA PATRIOT Act or something, toss him in Arkham and throw away the key.

He would have to be silenced, but tossing him in Arkham wouldn’t do the trick. Key or no key, the Joker will eventually escape Arkham, or he isn’t the Joker.

 

[Agent Richard07]

If Bruce hung up the cowl after TDK, why build a Batcave?

It could have been already under construction or pretty much completed when he quit.

 

[Gaith]

That or anything the Joker said or claimed was dismissed as being the ramblings of a lunatic.

That possibility occurred to me as well, and I dismissed it as inconsistent with character and story. Considering how manipulative and successful he the Joker is at everything else, it’s inconceivable that he couldn’t find a way to puncture the lie if he wanted to.

You must be joking. Nolan has the papers reporting on Bruce's very public trip to China, and - boom! Batman appears in China. And yet, eight years later, people still haven't put the pieces together.

But the citizens of Gotham believing the police instead of Joker is unbelievable? When Joker has to prove a negative?

Riiiiigggghht.

He would have to be silenced, but tossing him in Arkham wouldn’t do the trick. Key or no key, the Joker will eventually escape Arkham, or he isn’t the Joker.

You're assuming some hot-blooded cop didn't murder him en route to wherever after the police got to him, with no textual evidence to back you up.



Batman taking the rap was a silly plot point written to provide a "wow, things sure look bad for Bats now!" cliffhanger, plain and simple.

 

[Trekker4747]

IIRC the papers didn't talk about Wayne taking a cruise to China, but taking a cruise in a more tropical locale with the ballet cast. Though, one wonders why the dancers didn't talk about the billionaire Wayne ditching the boat at some point to get on float plane. Then we have to wonder where THAT plane took Bruce (presumably to China?) where he changed into his Batman gear somewhere only to have ANOTHER plane with the skyhook system pick him up and somehow the process all has to undo itself.

At some point Bruce has to get back onto the "love boat" with the ballet to finish out that alibi but also Batman has to deliver Chang (?) to Gotham PD/MCU.

I guess Batman DID have a lot of time to prepare the hell out of that operation.

 

[Captrek]

But the citizens of Gotham believing the police instead of Joker is unbelievable? When Joker has to prove a negative?

Riiiiigggghht.

Sure, if all he does is say, “Hey everybody, Dent killed Wuertz,” the public might not believe him. My point was that the Joker is considerably more imaginative than you are and would have more up his sleeve than just his word.

 

[inflatabledalek]

They couldn't have pinned Dent's death on the Joker as he'd already been arrested before Harvey took his fall. Even the GCPD aren't that dumb as to accept a guy in a cell miles away could have done it.

 

[Marc]

They couldn't have pinned Dent's death on the Joker as he'd already been arrested before Harvey took his fall. Even the GCPD aren't that dumb as to accept a guy in a cell miles away could have done it.

And they don't want to admit that Joker had turned dent to the darkside so that leaves Batman to take the the fall.

 

[MacLeod]

what was the point of the bat-signal at the end? if Bruce was done with being batman then why have it?

I took it as a message from Bruce to Gordon to let him know that he was still alive.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

what was the point of the bat-signal at the end? if Bruce was done with being batman then why have it?

I took it as a message from Bruce to Gordon to let him know that he was still alive.

The reason is that Bruce passed the reigns to a new Batman (Blake) and that if Gordon used the signal again, this new Batman would answer the call.

 

[Set Harth]

Reins, not reigns.

In other news Google is now interfering with access to this site as an alleged source of malware.

 

[jbny67]

Reins, not reigns.

In other news Google is now interfering with access to this site as an alleged source of malware.

I got that warning a couple times last night and today.
Rather annoying.

 

[Gaith]

They couldn't have pinned Dent's death on the Joker as he'd already been arrested before Harvey took his fall. Even the GCPD aren't that dumb as to accept a guy in a cell miles away could have done it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henchman#In_popular_culture