Much love to Kes

[Lynx]

It's because Kes was a frakking puppy.

Kes isn't, Kim is.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I'm basing this on who everyone winces over when the kicking starts.

 

[exodus]

It took about two years after the firing before Jennifer came up with a political correct statement about "contract not being re-newed". Before that, we only had the very vague and changing explanations from those in charge about why it was so necessary and beneficial to dump Kes.

And when did they take the upfront pictures for season 4?

What I've found out from certain reliable sources, it came as a surprise for Jennifer that she had been dumped and she was very depressed over it, something which is visible in the two first episodes of season 4 where her acting is not at the very best.

What I've been told from different sources, at least one of them what I consider reliable, it came as a surprise for Jennifer that she would be dumped. Now, I don't have the exact data or details when she was told that she was no longer a member of the cast but it must have been somewhere between the filming of season 3 ended and the filming of season 4 started. What I do know from different sources is that she was very depressed during the filming of "The Gift" and that the other actors weren't happy over the situation either.

I also read somewhere, I think it was mentioned on this forum that Ethan Phillips was so sure about being axed so that they actually planned a goodbye party for him. Obviously the decision about who they were going to axe came at a late point in the preparations for season 4. As for contracts or so, I remember a case when a certain hockey player didn't get his contract re-newed until one or two days before the series started.

So you're upset that the reasons for being let go were vague but sighting vague unknown "reliable sources" and speculative gossip should be taken as fact?
That's a contradiction.
So I heard....
Someone told me this....
I don't have the exact data but.....
If you admit you don't have the exact facts, how do you know its true?
Seriously?
That's your basis of facts?
A true reliable source would know actors have agents and these types of decisions can't be done due to the legal ramifications without going through them first and that it's the agents job, not the studio to inform their client if they have a job or not. That is what agents get paid for, to negotiate for and represent their clients.

The point is that the reasons they gave us were vague and changed all the time. First it was "Jennifer left of her own free will", then it became "oh we do actually axe her because we weren't able to come up with stories for the character", all that spiced with comments about how "Seven saved the show". Not to mention the wonderful word "mutual agreement" which is always used when there is foul play.

"Foul Play" refers to murder.
Nobody was murdered

When Sasha Alexander left NCIS, there were clear statements from both the producers and the actress herself why she was leaving. (She left because her family lives in Europe and she couldn't stand to be away from them for such long periods). All playing with open cards, no BS about writers not able to write for the character or "mutual agreement". Honestly, I hated and still dislike that they killed off Kate (her character), they could have let her leave on some other mission or so. But they were at least honest.

The actor, her agent and the studio all agreed that she be let out of her contract so she could be with her family.
That is actually called a "mutual agreement" because all parties involved agreed upon the terms given.
Was there "foul play" involved in this too because according to what you said above, all mutual agreement are ALWAYS an excuse given to cover up such a thing?
Again this is a contradiction of your own ideas and statements.

 

[Lynx]

^^
No, it's not a contradiction. It's you who don't understand what I mean.

First of all, I used the word "foul play" to describe a similar situation I read about. Maybe the British have another meaning of the word than the Americans.

As for trusting non-official sources, well, if the official sources aren't exactly reliable, then you must search the information elsewhere. And as I wrote before, I do find at least one of those sources reliable. What I've found out, Jennifer Lien didn't leave of her own free will and she was very unhappy over being kicked out, not have her contract renewed, being told to leave, dropped from the cast or whatever.

Do you really want me to have trust in people who change their stories from one week to another and also insult me and many other fans by coming up with something as insulting as "Fury"? Honestly, not the kind of people I would invite to my birthday party.

When it comes to the word "mutual agreement", I always get suspicious when it's the one and only explanation for why someone is leaving a TV series, rock band or something similar.

In the Sasha Alexander case, it was clearly stated from all parts why the actress wanted to leave the show she was in. I don't remember that the word "mutual agreement" was even used in the official statements that were published about the event.

In the Lien case we were first told that she had left of her own free will, then it was changed to that tale about writers not capable of writing for the character and that was all a "mutual agreement". I can also recall two events when members of two very famous rock bands had left the bands due to "mutual agreements" and it was many years later revealed from all parts that the both members were fired, one because the other members in the band simply wanted another person to join the band and the other because he objected to the musical direction the manager and another leading member of the band wanted.

I must admit that every time I see the word "mutual agreement" show up when someone leaves a successful project under mysterious circumstances, then I get suspicious and in most cases I've been right in my suspicions.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

In the Lien case we were first told that she had left of her own free will, then it was changed to that tale about writers not capable of writing for the character and that was all a "mutual agreement". I can also recall two events when members of two very famous rock bands had left the bands due to "mutual agreements" and it was many years later revealed from all parts that the both members were fired, one because the other members in the band simply wanted another person to join the band and the other because he objected to the musical direction the manager and another leading member of the band wanted.

I must admit that every time I see the word "mutual agreement" show up when someone leaves a successful project under mysterious circumstances, then I get suspicious and in most cases I've been right in my suspicions.

This applies to everything in life. If you get fired from a job, dumped by a partner, bomb out at school make sure you come up with the perfect line to give people explaining it and make sure you stick to it. If you have only one line people find it harder to read between.

 

[Lynx]

^^
You're right about that.

Let's compare two fictional statements:

1. The movie company Altamont stated today that actress Lana Kent is leaving her role as Charlotte in the TV series "22 Acacia Avenue". According to the series producer Benjamin Breeg, the actress has lost interest after three seasons of the series and is instead pursuing a longtime dream of starting an ostrich farm in Africa together with her husband Clark. "We will miss Lana but we understand her decision to fulfil her longtime dream", Mr Breeg says.

2. The movie company Altamont stated today that actress Lana Kent is leaving her role as Charlotte in the TV series "22 Acacia Avenue". According to producer Benjamin Breeg, it is a mutual agreement between the company and the actress.

Now which of those statements makes you wonder what really happened behind closed doors?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Her name was Chloe Kent.

Rookie mistake.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

^^
You're right about that.

Let's compare two fictional statements:

1. The movie company Altamont stated today that actress Lana Kent is leaving her role as Charlotte in the TV series "22 Acacia Avenue". According to the series producer Benjamin Breeg, the actress has lost interest after three seasons of the series and is instead pursuing a longtime dream of starting an ostrich farm in Africa together with her husband Clark. "We will miss Lana but we understand her decision to fulfil her longtime dream", Mr Breeg says.

2. The movie company Altamont stated today that actress Lana Kent is leaving her role as Charlotte in the TV series "22 Acacia Avenue". According to producer Benjamin Breeg, it is a mutual agreement between the company and the actress.

Now which of those statements makes you wonder what really happened behind closed doors?

3. The movie company Altamont stated today that actress Lana Kent is leaving her role as Charlotte in the TV series "22 Acacia Avenue". According to producer Benjamin Breeg, Lana is an absolute bitch to work with and we are glad to see her go.

 

[Melakon]

Frankly, I think it comes down to the writers didn't know what to do with her character, which seemed to be a regular problem during the 24th century years-- the predominantly male writing staff had trouble writing for women characters. Denise Crosby left because she didn't like the way the character was being written. Gates McFadden got canned because they were boxing themselves into a corner with the Picard/Beverly relationship. Troi was seldom used effectively and apparently there were discussions about writing her out of the show too. I hope McFadden charged them plenty when she was re-hired.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

But then you have Janeway, 7, two Dax's, Kira, Kai Winn (who got be both older, evil and have a lover), Ro Laren, Shelby.. so there were plenty of diverse and well written women.

It seems like Crusher, Kes and Troi all had the problem of having "sweet and feminine" as one of their personality traits and it stuck them fast. Any time you saw them with spine it was a major drama, or an alien influence.

 

[exodus]

^^
No, it's not a contradiction. It's you who don't understand what I mean.

First of all, I used the word "foul play" to describe a similar situation I read about. Maybe the British have another meaning of the word than the Americans.

As for trusting non-official sources, well, if the official sources aren't exactly reliable, then you must search the information elsewhere. And as I wrote before, I do find at least one of those sources reliable. What I've found out, Jennifer Lien didn't leave of her own free will and she was very unhappy over being kicked out, not have her contract renewed, being told to leave, dropped from the cast or whatever.

Do you really want me to have trust in people who change their stories from one week to another and also insult me and many other fans by coming up with something as insulting as "Fury"? Honestly, not the kind of people I would invite to my birthday party.

When it comes to the word "mutual agreement", I always get suspicious when it's the one and only explanation for why someone is leaving a TV series, rock band or something similar.

In the Sasha Alexander case, it was clearly stated from all parts why the actress wanted to leave the show she was in. I don't remember that the word "mutual agreement" was even used in the official statements that were published about the event.

In the Lien case we were first told that she had left of her own free will, then it was changed to that tale about writers not capable of writing for the character and that was all a "mutual agreement". I can also recall two events when members of two very famous rock bands had left the bands due to "mutual agreements" and it was many years later revealed from all parts that the both members were fired, one because the other members in the band simply wanted another person to join the band and the other because he objected to the musical direction the manager and another leading member of the band wanted.

I must admit that every time I see the word "mutual agreement" show up when someone leaves a successful project under mysterious circumstances, then I get suspicious and in most cases I've been right in my suspicions.

Trust them?
Invite them to a birthday party?
So you believe you know these people personally and they did this just to spite you?
You've used some vague source as reliable just because you believe they are. That's how the National Inquirer and FOX News stays in business too. Non-offical sources are usually called gossip or hear say.
Sorry, but I don't think you have any reliable source or credibility simply due to the fact that you believe that Lien was let go and "Fury" was written specifically as a direct and personal insult to you. That

 

[exodus]

In the Lien case we were first told that she had left of her own free will, then it was changed to that tale about writers not capable of writing for the character and that was all a "mutual agreement". I can also recall two events when members of two very famous rock bands had left the bands due to "mutual agreements" and it was many years later revealed from all parts that the both members were fired, one because the other members in the band simply wanted another person to join the band and the other because he objected to the musical direction the manager and another leading member of the band wanted.

I must admit that every time I see the word "mutual agreement" show up when someone leaves a successful project under mysterious circumstances, then I get suspicious and in most cases I've been right in my suspicions.

This applies to everything in life. If you get fired from a job, dumped by a partner, bomb out at school make sure you come up with the perfect line to give people explaining it and make sure you stick to it. If you have only one line people find it harder to read between.

...but it very well could be many reasons
If TPTB gave reason and Lien herself supports it, why still question it? Do Kes fans believe the actress they love is lying to them too? So everyone is lying....except the fans that were never on the set and don't know any of these folks personally, yet they're convinced NONE of them is telling the truth? So they're fans of someone they don't even trust at her word. Lien must be flattered to hear such things from her own fans, it explains why she doesn't do many Cons.

Whether they are or not, it's nearly a decade later. Nothing said or done can change it, so what's continuing to question it going to do? Voyager isn't going back into production and Lien isn't getting her job back. So even IF we find out what they said was a lie, what is it really going to change? If Kes fans REALLY are that upset, then they will still will be upset. Why carry around anger over something you still can't prove and can never change? What good is it ever going to do?

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

If what TPTB gave reason and Lien herself supports it, why still question it. Even if it's not, it's nearly a decade later. Nothing said or done can change it, so what's continuing to question it going to do? Voyager isn't going back into production and Lien isn't getting her job back. So even IF we find out what they said was a lie, what is it really going to change? If Kes fans REALLY are that upset, then they will still will be upset. Why carry around anger over something you still can't prove and can never change? What good is it ever going to do?

Who cares about doing good? This is the internet.

 

[exodus]

If what TPTB gave reason and Lien herself supports it, why still question it. Even if it's not, it's nearly a decade later. Nothing said or done can change it, so what's continuing to question it going to do? Voyager isn't going back into production and Lien isn't getting her job back. So even IF we find out what they said was a lie, what is it really going to change? If Kes fans REALLY are that upset, then they will still will be upset. Why carry around anger over something you still can't prove and can never change? What good is it ever going to do?

Who cares about doing good? This is the internet.

True, we can use it to bitch when everyone else we know is sick of hearing it.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

This is the only place that cares.

 

[Lynx]

^^
No, it's not a contradiction. It's you who don't understand what I mean.

First of all, I used the word "foul play" to describe a similar situation I read about. Maybe the British have another meaning of the word than the Americans.

As for trusting non-official sources, well, if the official sources aren't exactly reliable, then you must search the information elsewhere. And as I wrote before, I do find at least one of those sources reliable. What I've found out, Jennifer Lien didn't leave of her own free will and she was very unhappy over being kicked out, not have her contract renewed, being told to leave, dropped from the cast or whatever.

Do you really want me to have trust in people who change their stories from one week to another and also insult me and many other fans by coming up with something as insulting as "Fury"? Honestly, not the kind of people I would invite to my birthday party.

When it comes to the word "mutual agreement", I always get suspicious when it's the one and only explanation for why someone is leaving a TV series, rock band or something similar.

In the Sasha Alexander case, it was clearly stated from all parts why the actress wanted to leave the show she was in. I don't remember that the word "mutual agreement" was even used in the official statements that were published about the event.

In the Lien case we were first told that she had left of her own free will, then it was changed to that tale about writers not capable of writing for the character and that was all a "mutual agreement". I can also recall two events when members of two very famous rock bands had left the bands due to "mutual agreements" and it was many years later revealed from all parts that the both members were fired, one because the other members in the band simply wanted another person to join the band and the other because he objected to the musical direction the manager and another leading member of the band wanted.

I must admit that every time I see the word "mutual agreement" show up when someone leaves a successful project under mysterious circumstances, then I get suspicious and in most cases I've been right in my suspicions.

Trust them?
Invite them to a birthday party?
So you believe you know these people personally and they did this just to spite you?
You've used some vague source as reliable just because you believe they are. That's how the National Inquirer and FOX News stays in business too. Non-offical sources are usually called gossip or hear say.
Sorry, but I don't think you have any reliable source or credibility simply due to the fact that you believe that Lien was let go and "Fury" was written specifically as a direct and personal insult to you. That

No, I don't believe that "Fury" was written specifically as a direct and pertsonal insult to me. I never stated that. What I've stated is that "Fury" was written as an insult to the fans of the character Kes who dared to question the decision to kick out the character and wanted her back.

And Lien was kicked out, you can't deny that. Otherwise her character would at least have been visible in most of the episodes in seasons 4, 5, 6 and 7.

My sources may be non-official but they are no more vague than the official fairy tales about writers all of a sudden being incapable of doing their jobs and "mutual agreement".

Whether they are or not, it's nearly a decade later. Nothing said or done can change it, so what's continuing to question it going to do? Voyager isn't going back into production and Lien isn't getting her job back. So even IF we find out what they said was a lie, what is it really going to change? If Kes fans REALLY are that upset, then they will still will be upset. Why carry around anger over something you still can't prove and can never change? What good is it ever going to do?

You're actually right in that statement. Nothing can be changed. But as you state, we can still be p***ed off by those events.

 

[exodus]

My sources may be non-official but they are no more vague than the official fairy tales about writers all of a sudden being incapable of doing their jobs.

Are we watching the same show?
It's very clear to a large part of the fan base that watched the show that many of those writing for the it were incapable of doing their jobs or were running low on creative and developmental aspects for a majority of the characters on it. One of the biggest complaints about Kes was the writers didnt know how too and weren't fleshing out the character to her full potential. I don't see how that's a fairy tale.

However, just out of curiosity...

If it wasn't a mutual agreement and Jen Lien is no longer under contract or even in the acting biz, why do you think she would still lie? If she tells the truth, there is absolutely nothing legal or otherwise anybody can do to her. So why do you think she would lie to her fans?

 

[Lynx]

Why the sarcasm?

1. The strange thing is that the writers managed to come up with good Kes stories almost up to the last minute of season 3, then all of a sudden they lost that ability. Must have been something in the coffee they started drinking between season 3 and 4 or........?

2. To answer your second question, I don't know. I'm not a mind reader.

But if we assume that she was happy to be dumped after three seasons, then she could have come up with a statement about it at the beginning of season 4. That would have prevented all kinds of speculation and rumors.

 

[Guy Gardener]

She isn't being a whiny asshole because Jennifer is a classy broad.

I'm sure at some point I read a quote about some one saying they saw Jennifer running out of Berman's office in tears.

And if everything was above board then why did Mulgrew spend years bullying Jeri Ryan for getting Jennifer kicked off the show?

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I'm sure at some point I read a quote about some one saying they saw Jennifer running out of Berman's office in tears.

That could mean anything. I've read that on this forum multiple times and as far I know it could have been birthed on this forum and grown into a fact. There's never any specifics about when, we don't know who was in Berman's office, we don't know if Lien's dog had jut died that morning.