The Genesis planet...

[Timo]

We must assume that if it is matter, Genesis can work with it.

...But solely for the purpose of turning it into life-generating matter, according to Marcus. You can't build a planet (or a star!) out of moss.

Yes they do certainly rise.

Not on camera, I don't think. The camera simply moves along the surface, marred with craters visible from great heights. About thirty seconds into the ride, we close in on fuzzy orange mountains which then turn grey and sharp and then acquire snowcaps as the landscape acquires water and vegetation. The zoom-in would obscure all evidence of cratering: the mountains we see would not have been visible in the early moments of the simulation at all. In the subsequent zoom-out, water in turn obscures everything.

To say that mountains "rise" in the transition from fuzzy orange to sharp grey is overstating the case: there is no vertical movement there to be seen.

I'd say the orange fuzziness is the exact same thing we see on the main viewer after our heroes have made good their escape. It just lingers longer in reality than in the simulation. And involves just the sort of small scale changes demonstrated in the simulation.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[MacLeod]

It's been a few years since I watched TWOK and TSFS but as a referrence point can't we use the size of ships and the Regula space station.

From memory Regula appeared to be smaller than the Genesis planet.

 

[beamMe]

I've noticed that you view yourself as the arbiter of all things right and true in Star Trek

And you don't?

Nope.

 

[beamMe]

Until a few weeks ago, I don't think I realised there were fans who thought that Regula became the Genesis Planet.

Honestly, I'm still trying to figure out how that would even work in a way thats more plausible then the nebula becoming the Genesis Planet.

explosion throws at least some of whatever Genesis is on Regula (it was a pretty damn big explosion) + whatever Genesis is springs into action and re-forms Regula = Genesis Planet

That's a simpler explanation that at least meshes somewhat with what (little) we were told about Genesis. It doesn't introduce some new properties of Genesis, that were never stated in the movie anyway.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

explosion throws at least some of whatever Genesis is on Regula (it was a pretty damn big explosion)

It wasn't that big.

And thinking about this

And why wouldn't they have mentioned the warp core breach if that was what they were running from?

Well, aside from the fact that the term "warp core breach" hadn't even been invented yet, why should they mention it? They certainly didn't mention the fact that it was the Genesis wave they were running from either. I assume they didn't mention it because, in either case, everyone understood what they were running from.

Actually I'm pretty sure they were far enough away to avoid the core breach seeing as that only endangers ships pretty close to it, and I'm pretty sure that the though that an exploding starship poses a threat to anything but itself was a modern trek concept.

 

[beamMe]

explosion throws at least some of whatever Genesis is on Regula (it was a pretty damn big explosion)

It wasn't that big.

I'm sure you are right.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

explosion throws at least some of whatever Genesis is on Regula (it was a pretty damn big explosion)

It wasn't that big.

I'm sure you are right.

And it would still have to travel a ways to get to Regula. Or did you forget that while the nebula is visible from Regula, the planet was not visible from as close to the Nebula as they were before going in.

Oh and as for

It doesn't introduce some new properties of Genesis, that were never stated in the movie anyway.

They never said the wave could magically fly through space to find a planet to change, where as they said it could change an equal mass into living mater which in making a planet is a bit of a stretch but still possibly with in the abilities of the device. One (your point) is something that goes against how the device was shown to operate while another (not your point) is a stretch of an established ability of the device.

 

[beamMe]

And it would still have to travel a ways to get to Regula. Or did you forget that while the nebula is visible from Regula, the planet was not visible from as close to the Nebula as they were before going in.

And we don't see the explosion contracting again to form a planet - this still doesn't shake your interpretation.

Oh and as for

It doesn't introduce some new properties of Genesis, that were never stated in the movie anyway.

They never said the wave could magically fly through space to find a planet to change, where as they said it could change an equal mass into living mater which in making a planet is a bit of a stretch but still possibly with in the abilities of the device. One (your point) is something that goes against how the device was shown to operate while another (not your point) is a stretch of an established ability of the device.

What we've seen of the abilities of the device, is how it's introduce into an already existing planetary/planetoid body and that it re-forms that.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

And it would still have to travel a ways to get to Regula. Or did you forget that while the nebula is visible from Regula, the planet was not visible from as close to the Nebula as they were before going in.

And we don't see the explosion contracting again to form a planet - this still doesn't shake your interpretation.

Actually I could have sworn it does that in the director's cut.

Either way the planet seems molten at first which is more in line the planet having formed instead of being changed by the genesis device.

Besides its not just MY interpretation last time I checked, the tie-in guys seem to believe this interpretation as well. heck its been pointed out that the script writers may share this interpretation and I have yet to see more than one or two people believe your interpretation.

Oh and as for

It doesn't introduce some new properties of Genesis, that were never stated in the movie anyway.

They never said the wave could magically fly through space to find a planet to change, where as they said it could change an equal mass into living mater which in making a planet is a bit of a stretch but still possibly with in the abilities of the device. One (your point) is something that goes against how the device was shown to operate while another (not your point) is a stretch of an established ability of the device.

What we've seen of the abilities of the device, is how it's introduce into an already existing planetary/planetoid body and that it re-forms that.

Yeah, and we haven't seen any evidence that the genesis wave can expand the distance of a good chunk of a star system to reach a planet and still change it.

 

[Tiberius]

One point relevant to the name change is that the star didn't change. That is, the action never ventured sufficiently far away from the star of Regula that the star of Genesis could be a different star.

We sometimes hear that Trek locations are known by the name of the one relevant planet, sometimes by the name of the star. If the relevant planet changes, then that name probably is the informative one, and the star system now has to go by a different name. And of course the system can go by multiple different names: Ceti Ypsilon system (say), Regula system, Genesis system. Few would have even heard the name of the star or the planetoid before Genesis made the location famous...

Timo Saloniemi

The star shining on Genesis is the same as the one for Regula? Source please?

 

[Tiberius]

We must assume that if it is matter, Genesis can work with it.

...But solely for the purpose of turning it into life-generating matter, according to Marcus. You can't build a planet (or a star!) out of moss.

But when you can rearrange that moss into whatever you want, this point doesn't apply.

Yes they do certainly rise.

Not on camera, I don't think. The camera simply moves along the surface, marred with craters visible from great heights. About thirty seconds into the ride, we close in on fuzzy orange mountains which then turn grey and sharp and then acquire snowcaps as the landscape acquires water and vegetation. The zoom-in would obscure all evidence of cratering: the mountains we see would not have been visible in the early moments of the simulation at all. In the subsequent zoom-out, water in turn obscures everything.

To say that mountains "rise" in the transition from fuzzy orange to sharp grey is overstating the case: there is no vertical movement there to be seen.

I'd say the orange fuzziness is the exact same thing we see on the main viewer after our heroes have made good their escape. It just lingers longer in reality than in the simulation. And involves just the sort of small scale changes demonstrated in the simulation.

Timo Saloniemi

For those of you playing at home, here's the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXbWCrzWJo4&feature=related

Firstly, the only features seen on the moon are circular craters before the effect. None of these circular craters is seen on any part of the surface once the wave has crossed it. Therefore the surface topography must be changing - and that means parts of the surface are rising and/or sinking.

Secondly, at 27 seconds in the video, you can clearly see that the terrain ahead of the camera is flat. By 29 seconds, the previously flat section has risen to form mountain peaks. You may disagree and explain it away by saying there's orange fuzziness, but the line of the horizon clearly changes.

 

[Tiberius]

explosion throws at least some of whatever Genesis is on Regula (it was a pretty damn big explosion)

It wasn't that big.

I'm sure you are right.

And it strains credibility to me to think that a planet that is quite a long way from the source of the explosion would be turned into a planet (which, let's face it, was small enough that it's gravity couldn't even hold onto an atmosphere), while all the matter at the location of the explosion would have nothing done to it.

 

[Tiberius]

And it would still have to travel a ways to get to Regula. Or did you forget that while the nebula is visible from Regula, the planet was not visible from as close to the Nebula as they were before going in.

And we don't see the explosion contracting again to form a planet - this still doesn't shake your interpretation.

Actually I could have sworn it does that in the director's cut.

I just watched it, and at 1:34:51, when Carol comes onto the bridge, Kirk turns and says, "My God, Carol, look at it." You can see the viewer as he speaks, and you can see a rain of molten rock falling onto a forming planet that is clearly expanding. Makes sense if it is forming a planet out of the nebula material.

 

[beamMe]

just watched it, and at 1:34:51, when Carol comes onto the bridge, Kirk turns and says, "My God, Carol, look at it." You can see the viewer as he speaks, and you can see a rain of molten rock falling onto a forming planet that is clearly expanding. Makes sense if it is forming a planet out of the nebula material.

This could also be explained as: matter thrown this way by the explosion and caught Regula's gravity well - the observed "expansion" of the planet could actually be just the Enterprise closing in on Regula - the glow is the same phenomenon we see in the presentation video.

Boy, this is fun.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

just watched it, and at 1:34:51, when Carol comes onto the bridge, Kirk turns and says, "My God, Carol, look at it." You can see the viewer as he speaks, and you can see a rain of molten rock falling onto a forming planet that is clearly expanding. Makes sense if it is forming a planet out of the nebula material.

This could also be explained as: matter thrown this way by the explosion and caught Regula's gravity well

Okay how far do you think the Nebula is from Regula? Because you seemed to think it's closer than it looked in the film.

 

[beamMe]

The star shining on Genesis is the same as the one for Regula? Source please?

Which other star would it be?
Whether Genesis is the re-formed Regula or the exploded and collapsed Mutara Nebula, it's in the same system; the Enterprise never travelled very far when she left the orbit around Regula.
There isn't a lot of (if any) time-cutting in the editing in that whole sequence.

 

[beamMe]

just watched it, and at 1:34:51, when Carol comes onto the bridge, Kirk turns and says, "My God, Carol, look at it." You can see the viewer as he speaks, and you can see a rain of molten rock falling onto a forming planet that is clearly expanding. Makes sense if it is forming a planet out of the nebula material.

This could also be explained as: matter thrown this way by the explosion and caught Regula's gravity well

Okay how far do you think the Nebula is from Regula? Because you seemed to think it's closer than it looked in the film.

How could I know?
It is close enough to be reached by the Enterprise in a relatively short time - and she can't have had full impulse power since the Reliant could still "outrun" her.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

This could also be explained as: matter thrown this way by the explosion and caught Regula's gravity well

Okay how far do you think the Nebula is from Regula? Because you seemed to think it's closer than it looked in the film.

How could I know?
It is close enough to be reached by the Enterprise in a relatively short time - and she can't have had full impulse power since the Reliant could still "outrun" her.

Doesn't means its in magic explosion wave of magic range, plus the Reliant and Enterprise were flying around in the thing for a while so it seems pretty deep so I'm still trying to figure out how this magic explosion wave of magic range is supposed to reach Regula in the time it takes to make any sense in this film.

 

[Therin of Andor]

This could also be explained as: matter thrown this way by the explosion and caught Regula's gravity well - the observed "expansion" of the planet could actually be just the Enterprise closing in on Regula - the glow is the same phenomenon we see in the presentation video.

As we pointed out, the script specifies it will look the same, only much bigger:

The "Genesis Effect" WE SAW in its earliest experiments, now seems familiar on a gigantic, cosmic scale. The blinding flash at first, followed by the same tumbling turbulence of the miniature test. It is awesome.

"Gigantic cosmic scale". Doing so much more, to the whole damn nebula, than we saw to the moon in the presentation video.

 

[MacLeod]

Well if we use real time we can sort of work out the distance.

If we assume a speed of .25c and a travel time of two minutes we get

~5.6m miles