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Will the original timeline ever be restored?

At least, though, with Doctor Who, they did not need to reboot it....the new series is not a reboot, it's a continuation.

It's both. It's a mistake to define these things solely in terms of whether they pretend to be in the same universe/continuity or not. Continuity is just a storytelling device, not the end-all and be-all of fiction. The real purpose of a "reboot" or reinvention is to tell a familiar story in a new way that revitalizes it and brings in a new audience. Starting a new continuity like Galactica or the Marvel Ultimate Universe did is one way of doing that, but so is continuing what's supposedly the old continuity but in a fresh way. Continuity is just a tool in the kit; the real goal in either case is to take something old and make it new and different while retaining its core essence.

And really, the new Who may follow the conceit of being a continuation, but in actual fact it's a reinvention in a lot of ways, a major reinterpretation of how the universe works and what its history is. Which, of course, is something the original Who did many times before, and that the 1996 TV movie did as well. The difference being that the new series has made it explicit that a massive temporal upheaval, the Time War, was responsible for all the changes in history and continuity between the old series and new -- which, as I already said, is essentially the same thing that the Abrams Trek movie did. The difference is only in detail and degree.

And seriously, if you pay attention to fiction at all, it's easy to find many examples of continuations that were supposedly in the same reality but in fact rewrote the continuity drastically. The Marvel comics published today, set in 2012, pretend to be a continuation of the same universe where Reed Richards launched his rocket to beat the Soviets into space and Tony Stark was wounded in Vietnam, but of course they've rewritten all the period details of the continuity over and over again. The pretense is that it's a continuous, consistent universe, but it obviously isn't. Then there's something like M*A*S*H, an 11-year series about a 3-year war, whose date references got up as far as 1953 before getting pushed back to 1951 in later seasons, yet which still had the characters' relationships and history informed by events from that earlier, contradictory chronology. Or I Dream of Jeannie, which spent the first two seasons insisting that Jeannie had been born human and cursed to become a genie, but then rewrote history so that Jeannie had been a genie by birth and had genie parents and siblings. Or War of the Worlds: The Series, where the first season was set in a fairly normal present-day world but the second was suddenly a decaying, post-apocalyptic near-future dystopia without any explanation and without any significant passage of time (since the preadolescent member of the cast had only aged a few months in the interim).

So it's naive to say there's a fundamental difference between being in the same universe and rewriting the continuity. A lot of shows pretend to be in a continuous universe and rewrite the continuity anyway. Which is why you can't take continuity too literally or seriously in these discussions. It's ultimately all just pretend in any case, and that means the creators can pretend it's consistent even when it purposefully isn't.
 
It seems like the term solely exists to use for complaining when continuity doesn't match up. Well, it's been shown several times in the past that when writers don't care about continuity they'll do whatever fits the story, canon be damned.

Exactly. As a kid, I was thoroughly confused when the eldest son in "My Three Sons" left home and, in the same episode(?), the Dad adopted a new young son so the title of the show would be able to stay the same. Ironically, the added actor was the real-life brother of the youngest, now middle, son.

A generation later, Chuck Cunningham disappeared from the cast of "Happy Days" and wasn't mentioned again - and was finally written away, as if he never existed, in the closing episode, when the Dad thanked "my two children", ie. Richie and Joanie.

It's pointless.
Well, Richard Arnold's point, when introducing the term to Star Trek fans, was to attempt to stop the endless flow of demands upon Gene Roddenberry and Harve Bennett (in fan mail and at conventions) to acknowledge and incorporate aspects of Star Trek added via the licensed tech manuals, blueprints, comics, novels and "war games"/RPGs.

It opened a bit of a hornets' nest, to say the least.
 
I don't completely agree with the idea of canon being "pointless." Yeah fine, you have some stuff that will or even should be fudged or changed (Klingon and Trill/symbiont appearances, and the Borg's original intentions) but "linked" stories (like people) benefit from having some sort of structure to adhere to, otherwise you end up with way too many people saying "WTF kinda shit are they trying to pull now?"

The TNG movies and Enterprise are the biggest culprits in this regard.

The major exception here is First Contact, getting a pass only because it was entertaining, funny, has "scarier" Borg + builds on their lore and adds the element of the Borg queen which people accepted thanks to how she was written. The others - not so lucky. Overall, people want things to make sense, and if no one cares about the structure of a continuing story, then (IMO) the suspension of disbelief is in danger of being lost...along with the viewers.

:vulcan:
 
The major exception here is First Contact, getting a pass only because it was entertaining, funny

Come on, Generations was funny.

Remember when it sounded like Shatner was calling Stewart a dillweed?

Mind you, this was in the Beavis & Butthead era.

And we laughed, and we laughed...
 
Here's the thing. Consistency, continuity, whatever you wanna call it is a virtue. But it's not the only virtue or even the most important one.
 
The major exception here is First Contact, getting a pass only because it was entertaining, funny

Come on, Generations was funny.

Remember when it sounded like Shatner was calling Stewart a dillweed?

Mind you, this was in the Beavis & Butthead era.

And we laughed, and we laughed...
Nnnno, it wasn't to me. It was a bit of a trainwreck actually. In terms of horrendous, I put it right behind Nemesis and just before ST:V with regards to the worst Trek films.

Also, I despise Beavis & Butthead quite a bit.

:vulcan:
 
I don't completely agree with the idea of canon being "pointless."

That's because you're confusing it with continuity. They're not the same.
I'm not confusing anything. My point is canon and continuity should try to have a single aspect which relates to each other as best as possible. That aspect is "consistency." It makes for better storytelling and greater suspension of disbelief. If you don't care about any of that, than nothing I say matters anyway.
 
I don't completely agree with the idea of canon being "pointless."

That's because you're confusing it with continuity. They're not the same.
I'm not confusing anything. My point is canon and continuity should try to have a single aspect which relates to each other as best as possible. That aspect is "consistency." It makes for better storytelling and greater suspension of disbelief. If you don't care about any of that, than nothing I say matters anyway.

You were confusing things. You said canon wasn't pointless and then went on to talk strictly about continuity. You continue to do this when you assume that I don't care about consistency. They're not the same thing.
 
The point is that canon is not a value judgment or an assessment of quality; it's simply a category. It doesn't need to have a point because it simply is. The truth is, the people who create canon rarely think about canon, because it's automatic that whatever they create will be the canon. The only time it ever becomes an issue is when derivative, tie-in works or alternate continuities come into play. It's more a preoccupation of fandom than of creators. Although it really isn't as important to fans as they tend to make it out to be, since fans are free to "count" whatever tie-in stories they want or interpret the universe in whatever way suits them. The only people canon really has any impact on are people like me, tie-in authors who are obliged to avoid contradicting it.
 
I think if the Prime Universe continued it should just full on ignore the reboot, past, present and future. Clears up the reboot's plot holes and allows both universes to co-exist. Maybe they could even cross over, like in the reboot universe the Dominion destroys the Federation :devil:
 
The universes already do co-exist; that's the whole reason the filmmakers created a parallel timeline, so that they could co-exist. And it's redundant to suggest "ignoring" it since nobody in the Prime universe is even aware it exists. If you mean ignoring what it establishes about events before 2233, like the existence of the Kelvin and Robau or the canonization of the novels' names for Kirk's parents, I see no reason to ignore those; it's always nice to have more texture and detail to flesh out the universe.
 
Texture and flesh is nice (that sounds so wrong) I'd change the Kelvin though, Prime Kelvin should be something like the Bonaventure. Mainly the destruction of Romulus thing that should be done away with. But I'm biased, I've always loved Romulans :P
I just think it would make more sense if everything in XI was an alternate reality, keeps itself consistent, especially with like the stardate thing for example.

By the way Orion's Hounds was the first Trek book I read, which I believe was one of yours. You did an excellent job with it.
 
I think if the Prime Universe continued it should just full on ignore the reboot, past, present and future. Clears up the reboot's plot holes and allows both universes to co-exist. Maybe they could even cross over, like in the reboot universe the Dominion destroys the Federation :devil:

Nope. The eleventh movie is part of the continuity now. Romulus is going to blow up, Spock is going to disappear, and the books and comic books will just have to deal with that at some point, just like we've dealt with every other twist the movies and TV shows have thrown at us over the years.
 
I think if the Prime Universe continued it should just full on ignore the reboot, past, present and future. Clears up the reboot's plot holes and allows both universes to co-exist. Maybe they could even cross over, like in the reboot universe the Dominion destroys the Federation :devil:

Nope. The eleventh movie is part of the continuity now. Romulus is going to blow up, Spock is going to disappear, and the books and comic books will just have to deal with that at some point, just like we've dealt with every other twist the movies and TV shows have thrown at us over the years.

Until someone time travels again.
 
I think if the Prime Universe continued it should just full on ignore the reboot, past, present and future. Clears up the reboot's plot holes and allows both universes to co-exist. Maybe they could even cross over, like in the reboot universe the Dominion destroys the Federation :devil:

Nope. The eleventh movie is part of the continuity now. Romulus is going to blow up, Spock is going to disappear, and the books and comic books will just have to deal with that at some point, just like we've dealt with every other twist the movies and TV shows have thrown at us over the years.

Until someone time travels again.

True!
 
Texture and flesh is nice (that sounds so wrong) I'd change the Kelvin though, Prime Kelvin should be something like the Bonaventure.

Huh? You mean the ship from TAS: "The Time Trap" that was alleged to be the first ship with warp drive? That's an odd choice, since the Kelvin was from a much later time. I would've expected the suggestion that it be more like a Daedalus-class or Franz Joseph's Saladin-class or something.

And of course any two people are going to have different ideas about starship design, but the people who were hired as the movie's artists and designers produced the result we saw. I don't think it's valid to treat a design as "wrong" just because it's different from what we -- or a previous art team -- would have designed. Personally I dislike pretty much every Starfleet design ILM ever came up with, from the Reliant and the Excelsior all the way through the Akira and the other ships introduced in First Contact. But I accept that they're part of the universe.


Mainly the destruction of Romulus thing that should be done away with. But I'm biased, I've always loved Romulans :P

They are called the Romulan Star Empire, which makes it pretty clear that they don't all live on Romulus itself. I think there could be plenty of interesting stories to tell about the Romulans trying to deal with the loss of their homeworld.


I just think it would make more sense if everything in XI was an alternate reality, keeps itself consistent, especially with like the stardate thing for example.

Stardates have never been consistent, even when they've pretended to be. The whole reason stardates were invented was as a deliberate means of conveying no meaningful chronological information whatseover, like a numerical lorem ipsum, because TOS's creators wanted to be vague about the series' timeframe. There has never been a way to make any coherent sense out of the numbers more or less randomly assigned to stardates (even in the TNG era when they mostly increased steadily, the intervals were completely inconsistent), so the existence of a new inconsistency doesn't really change anything. I just ignore the actual numbers.

And that's not the only thing about Star Trek that's never been as consistent as it pretends. There are tons of inconsistencies -- warp velocities, the size of the Federation, the nature of the Borg, the appearance of the Klingons or Andorians, etc. And that's not even getting into the more specific things like whether Khan's followers were ethnically diverse, whether Data used contractions or had emotions, or whether Deanna had ever kissed Riker with a beard. The new movie doesn't add any more inconsistencies than previous series and movies have added. So there's no reason it should be treated any differently. In the past, people have said "it should be an alternate reality" about Enterprise, about TNG, about TMP, about TAS, even about the third season of TOS. But sooner or later, the mass of fans just accept it and learn to gloss over the inconsistencies.

And that is what's going to happen here, no doubt about it. The 2009 film was the most popular and second-most financially successful Trek movie of all time, and anyone who thinks that it's ever going to be "ignored" by subsequent productions is living in a fantasy world.


By the way Orion's Hounds was the first Trek book I read, which I believe was one of yours. You did an excellent job with it.

Thanks!
 
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