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Accept or Reject Enterprise

M.A.C.O.

Commodore
Commodore
Ok so I am just returning from the Star Trek Convention is Las Vegas. At the 'Khan' I talked to alot of people about how they felt about each series. What I found is that a good majority of people I encountered ignore ENT's existence to the story of Trek. They accept TOS, TNG, DS9, and VOY was very poplular among alot of them. However ENT was one they either didn't have an opinion about, hated or ignored it all together. That's not to say I didn't meet any ENT fans of cosplayers, there just were not alot of them. Most were TNG, VOY and DS9 fans.

I wanted to pose this question to you my fellow board mates. How do you all feel about ENT's place in Treklore? I know everything shot in front of a camera is considered 'canon", but do many on this board ignore ENT's story?
 
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Obviously Enterprise is the least popular of the five series, there's no denying that. As for it's place in Treklore? It's there, but if anyone doesn't care to look too closely at it, I can't say I blame them.

I gave up on it during season 2 of it's airing and didn't watch the rest of it until last year on Netflix. The issue of "canon" is really moot being the creators all have differing opinions on it. It's the source material to be sure, but each fan can decide what they do and don't like, be it books, games, movies or individual series and episodes. Honestly I don't get why people trumpet "not canon" whenever someone has the audacity to talk about a book or something as if that's an intelligent contribution to a conversation.

So to Enterprise? I grudgingly liked it the second time through, though my expectations were a lot lower then. I consider it part of "my" Trek verse, sure. I can't say I've enjoyed it enough to pick up an Enterprise novel for example(unless you count Destiny's flashbacks). It's there, and hey even the bad Trek is better than no Trek.

Others love it and that's their right. Certainly I hope Bakula or anyone else of the cast there didn't get booed or taunted or whatever. That would be poor form to say the least.
 
Enterprise and Star Trek are my favorite Trek series.

And IMO, TNG sucked way more than ENT ever did. The characters were bland. The relationships were bland. Way too many of the stories sucked. Picard is a stiff. Troi is a bore. Crusher is shrill. Her brat is annoying. In fact, the only characters I found to be interesting were Data, Q, Ro Laren, Barclay and Guinan. Yup, for me only one of the main characters was worth watching.
 
Reject it.

Same with Nemesis...actually ALL of the TNG movies.

In terms of Star Trek shows and movies I "need" to have, TOS, TNG, DS9, TPM, TWOK, TSFS, TVH, and TUC are pretty much all I need. Voyager has some good episodes, though I'll probably never get the series on DVD unless it's only $10.00 a pop.

But Enterprise? No chance. Aside from the character of Shran, there's nothing about it that I find endearing or cool, and one cool Andorian who's not even a regular isn't enough to change my mind about the series.



Now lemme tell you how I really feel about it...


:klingon:
 
I accept it. I found ENT to have the most interesting characters. I know I'm in the minority here but I liked seeing the Enterprise before it was a Federation juggernaut. That being said, I can see how this Trek doesn't exactly feel like other Trek.
 
...IMO, TNG sucked way more than ENT ever did. The characters were bland. The relationships were bland. Way too many of the stories sucked. Picard is a stiff. Troi is a bore. Crusher is shrill. Her brat is annoying. In fact, the only characters I found to be interesting were Data, Q, Ro Laren, Barclay and Guinan. Yup, for me only one of the main characters was worth watching.

Seconded. Except I find Data/Spiner annoying (his acting talent notwithstanding). Love Guinan and Barclay. And ENT of course.
 
Of course I accept it. Even the worst Star Trek episodes (of which ENT had several contenders in seasons one and two, not to mention TATV) are Star Trek episodes and "count" as much as the very best ones. I'm as die-hard a Trekkie as you can get, but I find the idea of pretending the episodes/movies/series I didn't like "didn't happen" to be ridiculous.

I grew up reading Star Trek novels, whose intricate pre-TOS era and technology was invalidated totally by Enterprise (which brought inventions like the phaser, the transporter, photon torpedoes and breaking the warp 4.8 barrier from within Kirk's lifetime back an entire century to the 2150's), and you know what? Five minutes into "Broken Bow" I thought, "they're doing their own thing. Let's see what it's like"

The entire Star Trek universe fits together in very broad strokes only. It's got a great illusion of continuity, but an illusion is all it is. See the video link in my sig if you need any proof.
 
I accept other fans' opinion, but I think they're wrong. Seasons Three and Four are some of the best Trek has to offer, IMO, and more than make up for the middling first two seasons. Every other post-TOS Trek started off with two awful to mediocre seasons; why is ENT the only one that's shunned for it?
 
...IMO, TNG sucked way more than ENT ever did. The characters were bland. The relationships were bland. Way too many of the stories sucked. Picard is a stiff. Troi is a bore. Crusher is shrill. Her brat is annoying. In fact, the only characters I found to be interesting were Data, Q, Ro Laren, Barclay and Guinan. Yup, for me only one of the main characters was worth watching.

Seconded. Except I find Data/Spiner annoying (his acting talent notwithstanding). Love Guinan and Barclay. And ENT of course.

Wow, I completely agree with everything you've both said.. and I also am not a Data fan. Ro Laren was my favorite TNG character. TNG has always been my least favorite series, quite a bit least lol.

Wait.. I do love Lwaxana. But I think she was better on DS9.
 
Accept, of course. Enterprise is a good show.

Seasons 3 and 4 are really great. And even though Seasons 1 and 2 are less great, they have a better hit-or-miss ratio than TNG's first two seasons.
 
...IMO, TNG sucked way more than ENT ever did. The characters were bland. The relationships were bland. Way too many of the stories sucked. Picard is a stiff. Troi is a bore. Crusher is shrill. Her brat is annoying. In fact, the only characters I found to be interesting were Data, Q, Ro Laren, Barclay and Guinan. Yup, for me only one of the main characters was worth watching.
Seconded. Except I find Data/Spiner annoying (his acting talent notwithstanding). Love Guinan and Barclay. And ENT of course.
Wow, I completely agree with everything you've both said.. and I also am not a Data fan. Ro Laren was my favorite TNG character. TNG has always been my least favorite series, quite a bit least lol.

Wait.. I do love Lwaxana. But I think she was better on DS9.
Worf was better on DS9, too. No surprise, since DS9 tended to have that kind of effect. ;)

I like TNG better than the two of you seem to, though I agree it isn't close to flawless. It was too stale and too preachy. I put it behind DS9 in my rankings, though still ahead of ENT, which is my third favorite Trek. TOS and VOY are tied for my least favorite, for different reasons. I just am not a huge fan of VOY aside from the Doctor and Seven, and I could never get into TOS. Every time I've tried to watch the show I got a few episodes into it and then lost interest.
 
I like to watch the first two seasons as full of foreshadowing of what is to come. It's also kind of poignant to see their boyscout like enthusiasm when ultimately man going to the stars will cost Earth so much.
 
He's not my favorite character, but I think Archer is very underrated. He really does have a clear character arc throughout the show. He starts off as this enthusiastic, optimistic, and yes, naive man who's eager to get out there and show the galaxy what humanity can do. But as the show went on, his initial enthusiasm gives way to a bit of jadedness, a little cynicism, particularly during the third season and early on in the fourth. By the end of the fourth season, he matures into a wiser man who's confident for all the right reasons (whereas he was confident for all the wrong ones in Season One). Did he make some stupid decisions along the way? Of course he did, but the other captains have their share of stupid decisions, too. That Archer is penalized for his and the others aren't for theirs is unfair, and smacks of bias against ENT (of which there is, unfortunately, quite a bit).
 
Admiral Shran had some interesting things to say about Archer once which I found enlightening and which brought a lot of sympathy to the character, for me anyway. I really balked at him for a long time but I think the founding father idea is a good one:

5.) Archer - I liked him from the beginning. I loved how he was a much more flawed character than any of the other captains. A lot of people complain about that, but I say "what did you expect?" Earth was just starting out in interstellar affairs and it's not fair to judge the man who goes first against men and women who come after him and can learn from his mistakes. Even the antics of A Night in Sickbay were understandable for me - he's new to this, he's completely unprepared for the realities he has to face.

I've seen two analyses of Archer that I thought were good descriptions of him....

I.) Kirk is the "action hero." He's the one who gets in fights and has a lot of physicality. Picard is the "thinking hero." He's the one who uses his mind to win at any challenge. Sisko is the "emotional hero." He's the kind of person who will let his emotions control him, for better or worse. Janeway is the "anti-hero." She's the kind of person who is willing to break the rules and do some very, very questionable things, but we forgive her anyway because we *almost* always agree with her decisions. Archer is the "tragic hero." He's a man who is unable to rise to the challenges he faces, try as he might and has to rely on others to help him (notably Trip and T'Pol, but to a lesser extent the rest of his crew.)

II.) He's sort of like the American Founding Fathers. Let's take probably the best known Founding Father for comparison - George Washington. Washington is today revered as the man who won the American Revolution. However, if you look at the actual historical facts, he wasn't that much of a military commander. His first military command, in the British Army, was such a resounding failure that it helped start the French and Indian War. During the Revolution, he only won three battles over the course of years and years (one of which he only won because of the element of surprise and another only because the French navy helped him tremendously). He was constantly outmatched, outperformed and outmaneuvered. Yet, his legend has grown ever since the end of the Revolution.

That's similar to what they were trying to do with Archer, in my opinion. They wanted to show that he was a Founding Father of the Federation, but that he wasn't a god among men - he was flawed, deeply, as both a military commander and as a diplomat. That makes a lot of sense to me and I greatly appreciate it. After all, I greatly respect many of the American Founding Fathers, even though they were also deeply flawed men - most of the ones I admire owned slaves, for crying out loud!

This quote from this post.
 
I find the entire 'ignore this but accept that' attitude a bit odd. It's there. Deal with it. You can love, like it, feel meh about it, hate it, whatever. But ignore it? I find that a bit childish really.

It's part of canon now.
 
He's not my favorite character, but I think Archer is very underrated. He really does have a clear character arc throughout the show. He starts off as this enthusiastic, optimistic, and yes, naive man who's eager to get out there and show the galaxy what humanity can do. But as the show went on, his initial enthusiasm gives way to a bit of jadedness, a little cynicism, particularly during the third season and early on in the fourth. By the end of the fourth season, he matures into a wiser man who's confident for all the right reasons (whereas he was confident for all the wrong ones in Season One). Did he make some stupid decisions along the way? Of course he did, but the other captains have their share of stupid decisions, too. That Archer is penalized for his and the others aren't for theirs is unfair, and smacks of bias against ENT (of which there is, unfortunately, quite a bit).

A very good point!!

I read people commenting on how Starfleet needed to put a more experienced captain on their first deep space starship.
HELLO!!! FIRST deep space starship. There is no one with the right amount if experience yet, so anybody put in the chair of that ship would have made mistakes. Perhaps not the same ones as Archer did, but mistakes (and big ones) at that. It was all about humanity learning to deal with The Big Out There. Archer was the perfect showcase for that; an enthausiastic explorer, filled with dreams and hopes and expectations, only to find out that things are sometimes a lot different then he (or any other human) had hoped for. So he fell, hard. Anybody would have. Thing is, after a while he learned from those mistakes and became a better man, a better captain. A better human.
 
ENT did get better in S3 and S4, but it really was a case of too little too late. The concept was interesting and had promise but it was poorly executed.

Generally I choose to ignore much of it, or think how I would do it differently.
 
Of course I accept it. Even the worst Star Trek episodes (of which ENT had several contenders in seasons one and two, not to mention TATV) are Star Trek episodes and "count" as much as the very best ones. I'm as die-hard a Trekkie as you can get, but I find the idea of pretending the episodes/movies/series I didn't like "didn't happen" to be ridiculous.


I find the entire 'ignore this but accept that' attitude a bit odd. It's there. Deal with it. You can love, like it, feel meh about it, hate it, whatever. But ignore it? I find that a bit childish really.

It's part of canon now.
Pretending something didn't happen and choosing not to watch something that doesn't entertain me are 2 different things. What I find "ridiculous" and "odd" is the concept that just because something says "Star Trek" means you have bend over and like it, accept it, and/or own it just because it says "Star Trek."

I don't.

Ultimately, it's a form of entertainment, and if I'm not entertained by what's being offered to me, I actually DON'T have to deal with it.

:vulcan:
 
I'm in the love camp.

These characters take an emotional journey that characters in the other shows just don't seem to take. These are the voyages - not of starships and planetary exploration, but of insights into the self.
 
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