Spoilers TP: Raise the Dawn by DRGIII Review Thread
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This might have been raised before, and I might have read this wrong - but in the scene in which Bacco reacts to the destruction of DS9, the set-up of the scene describes Bacco, her Chief of Staff, two members of her cabinet, Akaar and another Starfleet Admiral.
Now Bacco, Piniero, Akaar and Nechayev are there - but there are three members of the cabinet present: Safranski, Jas Abrik and Raisa Shostakova. Did I miss one of the characters entering - or is this an editing error?
Again, apologies if this has been raised.
Now Bacco, Piniero, Akaar and Nechayev are there - but there are three members of the cabinet present: Safranski, Jas Abrik and Raisa Shostakova. Did I miss one of the characters entering - or is this an editing error?
Again, apologies if this has been raised.
I think the more important question in that is
just what the Dominion is going to do now with NO founders whatsoever to look up to... I'm not sure I'd trust the Vorta to maintain the isolationist policies that Odo had started to implement. On the contrary, I almost see them starting a pseudoreligious crusade to try and find their gods again. Even if they can't conceivably make it back to the AQ, they could cause all kinds of havoc on the other side of the galaxy.
So does anyone think this is the last we've heard of the Gammy Quadrant?
So does anyone think this is the last we've heard of the Gammy Quadrant?
The Dominion isn't without Founders. Odo was taking the lead but he wasn't the only one. He had gotten others to return. We know Laas is around. I worry what the Dominion does if Laas becomes the new leader.
Didn't they let him go ?
Man, that was a great ending. The last 100 page weres wonderful, I ready them tonight. I'm sad to see
And the handling of Kira seemed to be
I never cared much about all those new characters so I'm happy that half the crew is back. And I'm surprised that I didn't mind the
of DS9 - it's just a space station after all.
Vaughn die but it was a decent ending for me. He deserves it.
And the handling of Kira seemed to be
kinda full circle to me - she deserves to be with the prophets.
I never cared much about all those new characters so I'm happy that half the crew is back. And I'm surprised that I didn't mind the
destruction
It does seem a shame that Odo's been removed from the Dominion; from what we saw in these books, he had been making true progress there, even if it wasn't on the scale he might have wanted. Perhaps the very fact that he's switched his focus from changing things wholescale to just encouraging a sense of community where he can demonstrates that one person can't be too important in the grand scheme of things, and life will continue on without him just fine. Still, it's undeniable that Odo is overwhelmingly the source of, and the driving force behind, any new perspectives that have seeped into the Dominion over the last eight years. Now that the Dominion is in isolationist mode, I hope it has enough "philosophical essence of Odo" to keep working changes, and absent the fresh injection of outside ideas won't just "shrug the effects off" and fall back into the old patterns it had just started to subtly move away from. I wonder to what extent Odo's ideas have rubbed off on the 27 other changelings who returned? I would say "I'm sure they'll keep to the isolationist policy, because Founders are like that" but given that these were the ones who returned, it might be that they're the ones particularly driven to seek out connections with others, so maybe they'll turn the Dominion's eyes outward again. Either way, I hope Odo's removal doesn't cause the subtle process of change to wind down.
The idea of a primarily Laas-influenced Dominion is rather alarming, I think; not because I think he'll attack anyone but because he'll get so frustrated he'll probably leave in disgust and go be a rock somewhere. When the Vorta run to him and start telling him that "solid race so and so is in dispute with solid race whatsit" or "production of monoform thing #36 is down", he'll just get angry and unhelpful. The Vorta would end up having to work things out for themselves anyway. It's not good when your society depends on Word From On High and that Word is "I hate all of you and can barely tolerate your existance".
That said, since the Founders are very hands-off anyway, I imagine the Dominion could continue ticking over for quite some time without any Founders at all. It would, I think, mean an increasingly desperate and panicky awareness among the lead Vorta that they don't know what to do, but I guess it would take some time for problems to pile up to the point that Dominion society starts to notice, or things are no longer running smoothly.
Basically, this is my rambling way of saying "I hope we revisit the Dominion again".
The idea of a primarily Laas-influenced Dominion is rather alarming, I think; not because I think he'll attack anyone but because he'll get so frustrated he'll probably leave in disgust and go be a rock somewhere. When the Vorta run to him and start telling him that "solid race so and so is in dispute with solid race whatsit" or "production of monoform thing #36 is down", he'll just get angry and unhelpful. The Vorta would end up having to work things out for themselves anyway. It's not good when your society depends on Word From On High and that Word is "I hate all of you and can barely tolerate your existance".
That said, since the Founders are very hands-off anyway, I imagine the Dominion could continue ticking over for quite some time without any Founders at all. It would, I think, mean an increasingly desperate and panicky awareness among the lead Vorta that they don't know what to do, but I guess it would take some time for problems to pile up to the point that Dominion society starts to notice, or things are no longer running smoothly.
Basically, this is my rambling way of saying "I hope we revisit the Dominion again".
Finished. Thought it was awesome, voted outstanding
I've just skimmed through this thread but can anyone tell me where Spock disappeared to between books?And had Spock simply mind-probed the captured Tomalek,wouldn't that have spared a lot of to-ing and fro-ing?
(And please,don't give me any guff about Spock being reluctant to use his gifts that way...ST6 puts the lie to that).
(And please,don't give me any guff about Spock being reluctant to use his gifts that way...ST6 puts the lie to that).
Just because he did it in STVI, doesn't mean he does it all the time. It was mind-rape.
Spock was appaled doing what he did in ST6. It was something he considered to be one of the worst things he ever had to do. So he would not just do it again, as if it's the most normal thing in the world.
We know he was aboard the Enterprise when she returned from the Gamma Quadrant into the middle of the Federation/Typhon Pact firefight. Beyond that, he ceased to be a relevant player in the story, and we don't know his fate. I would presume that, the joint Federation-Romulan mission having ended, he would have transferred off at Bajor and returned to Earth, Vulcan, or Romulus.
James Swallow's 2011 novel Cast No Shadow covers the question of what Spock did to Valeris in Star Trek VI. Suffice it to say that it's not something he'd do again.
Also, your question could just as easily be asked of any telepathic individual in the Federation. That the Federation Security Agency did not simply have another Vulcan, or a Betazoid, or an Ullian, or any other telepathic Federate, probe Tomalak's mind, strongly implies that such things are by the 24th Century considered a violation of Federation law.
It's interesting; J.M. Dillard's novelization of STVI plays that scene a bit differently, though not really in a way that reasonably consistent with the film. Spock is depicted as being much less forceful, and still getting what is needed. There is no indication, so far as I recall, that Spock was doing anything questionable, the way Dillard depicted it.
That novelization was an interesting ride...
Back on topic, though, it is a little surprising to me that Starfleet was not shown vetting, at least implicitly, the Romulans, with or without the use of telepaths. (Maybe I'm forgetting something?) Troi was shown doing that all the time, in a way that didn't seem to be perceived as any more privacy-violating than observing someone's body language.
But Deanna isn't a full telepath, just an empath -- essentially a very skilled people-reader. She senses what they're radiating -- she doesn't go into their heads and rummage around.
No doubt Dillard modified the Spock-Valeris scene in the novelization because she found it out of character for Spock and was adjusting it to make it work better -- like the way she added a recent Klingon raid that injured Carol Marcus in order to justify Kirk's out-of-nowhere, out-of-character bigotry in the film, or the way her ST V novelization added a passage about Sybok giving the crew special shield modifications to explain why it could just fly right through the seemingly impassable barrier (though she didn't address the half-hour trip to the center of the galaxy, alas). It's a long tradition in TOS movie novelizations for the authors to "fix" the films' plot and logic holes, going all the way back to TWOK and things like Vonda McIntyre using the correct Bayer designation Alpha Ceti instead of "Ceti Alpha."
No doubt Dillard modified the Spock-Valeris scene in the novelization because she found it out of character for Spock and was adjusting it to make it work better -- like the way she added a recent Klingon raid that injured Carol Marcus in order to justify Kirk's out-of-nowhere, out-of-character bigotry in the film, or the way her ST V novelization added a passage about Sybok giving the crew special shield modifications to explain why it could just fly right through the seemingly impassable barrier (though she didn't address the half-hour trip to the center of the galaxy, alas). It's a long tradition in TOS movie novelizations for the authors to "fix" the films' plot and logic holes, going all the way back to TWOK and things like Vonda McIntyre using the correct Bayer designation Alpha Ceti instead of "Ceti Alpha."
It's a diplomatic mission involving a Romulan ship. That would be the equivalent of the United States requiring all foreign embassies to be opened up to random inspections by the FBI; it's just never gonna happen.
No doubt. Though I don't know if I agree with her assessment that it was out of character for Spock -- this is the same character who, after all, in "Where No Man Has Gone Before," almost immediately jumped to, "You have to kill Gary Mitchell now" long before Mitchell actually became violent or threatening. And who, for that matter, in the Abrams timeline, literally had Kirk marooned on an ice planet because he believed Kirk would raise a mutiny against him if he didn't.
Spock has a bit of a ruthless streak to him, I think. A history of morally questionable behavior in the service of his brand of logic and of the greater good.
But that's not what Spock actually said. His actual recommendation was to strand Mitchell on Delta Vega. When Kirk balked at that, Spock pointed out that the only alternative was to kill him. Spock wasn't actually advocating that, he was trying to convince Kirk that stranding Mitchell, harsh though it seemed, was the most humane option available.
Well, he was "emotionally compromised" at that point, by his (future alternate self's) own admission. And he did land Kirk close to a Starfleet outpost. I imagine that if Kirk had had the good sense to stay in the pod, Scott and Keenser would've picked up its locator signal and come to retrieve him in some sort of vehicle.
Ehn... emotionally compromised or not, Spock should have just locked him in the brig. Kirk was unconscious when he was ejected in a dinky pod that flew into a planet's atmosphere and crash landed. Spock must have been spectacularly emotionally compromised to do something so dangerous; it makes a little bit more sense to theorize that Spock is prone to occasional bouts of draconian logic during crises, and that he concluded that Kirk posed an extraordinary risk to the mission. That gives his actions a bit more nuance, and makes it more believable than Spock just going berserk.
Picard brought Troi on diplomatic missions all the time for these purposes all the time. The FBI analogy overstates Troi's invasiveness. Picard is a great people reader, but Troi, empathic abilities aside, is, as you said, a trained people reader, and is theoretically an expert in that field. I'm just surprised that Picard never had such an expert (obviously with a more opaque title) sit in a meeting with the Romulans. I know Hegol Den is not cleared for command decisions, but I believe he would have the training.
I don't think Spock's actions in STVI were out of character. A different aspect of his character than we've seen much before, but he definitely serves the greater good, and definitely places a premium value on loyalty. To Pike ("The Menagerie"), to Kirk. I don't think anyone has ever betrayed Spock as much as Valeris did, and I think that his willingness, however hesitant, to meld with her, may have been tainted by anger from that betrayal. (Caveat: it's been a while since I read Cast No Shadow, so if Swallow came up with a different explanation, I apologize.)
Also, for what it's worth, I thought Kirk's hatred of Klingons was believable in the film. David came along at a very emotionally tender moment in Kirk's life (mainly due to Spock's death), and I would not be surprised if he was yet more sensitive to David's death because of that. Combine that with a lifetime of adversarial interactions and 8 years of what was obviously festering grief over David, I can understand Kirk's not-so-evolved attitude towards the Klingons.
But I appreciated Dillard's alternative interpretation of the film. It was, as I say, interesting.
On a completely unrelated note: who is stationed where on the Enterprise's bridge?
I have:
Big Chair: Picard
Riker's old chair: Worf
Troi's old chair: ???
Ops: Glinn Dygan (loved that!!)
Conn: is it still Faur?
Tactical: Choudhury
Do Elfiki, Hegol or Chen have particular stations on the bridge? And is there an established Engineering station on the E-E's bridge, like there was on the D?
