Pikes Bar Arrival ??

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Looking at Kirk's sleeve, we don't see what we would expect from the pattern of the Royal Navy or the United States Navy.

Nor should we. This is Starfleet, after all. There's no reason their rank stripes should have to be the same as real navies. They're different. Let it go.

Besides, we know the stripes used by all ranks below Captain, and they follow a standard pattern: each successive rank adds a half-stripe to the one below it. For example: Lieutenant Commander = one and one half stripes. Commander = two full stripes. Therefore, Captain = two and a half.

 

[137th Gebirg]

IIRC, the TOS braid for Fleet Captain was supposed to be three full stripes (not to be confused with the incorrect Franz Joseph Tech Manual Commodore grade). It could easily be adapted for the AbramsVerse uniforms and discernible from standard Captains.

In any case, I always thought Fleet Captains, like Commodores, were considered a more brevet or honorary grade than the standard line officer designations. Either that or temporary designations during TDY assignment for an ad-hoc battlegroup.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

In any case, I always thought Fleet Captains, like Commodores, were considered a more brevet or honorary grade than the standard line officer designations. Either that or temporary designations during TDY assignment for an ad-hoc battlegroup.

I tend to think that Fleet Captain is not a rank, but Commodore is. Perhaps they are the same rank. In any case, we've never seen what a Fleet Captain might wear in the field, so to speak, so we're free to speculate on just what it is.

 

[Timo]

Therefore, Captain = two and a half.

There's no "therefore" there. We have no reason to assume that Commander would be followed by Captain.

...Unless we assume Starfleet is like the Royal Navy. And you seem to say that we can't assume that?

The fictional braid of |:| or 2½ could well be used to match the fictional rank of Fleet Captain, all other things being equal as far as we can tell.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

There's no "therefore" there. We have no reason to assume that Commander would be followed by Captain.

No reason not to, either.

 

[Timo]

..In which case there's no reason not to assume that both the 2½ and 3 stripe ranks exist and both are called Captain - and that 2½ is the one called Fleet Captain because that's the promotion Pike would more probably be getting from his initial one-stripe rank at a time young Jim Kirk would first be meeting him...

Absence of ranks from the "continuum" of the braid code has never been particularly good evidence of their nonexistence, as e.g. the TOS movies began with rather deliberate gaps (no LtCmdr, no Ensign) but eventually filled those. But the TOS era does consistently lack the 3 braid rank, while the TNG era has the 4 pip rank but consistently lacks the 3½ pip one... Make of what what you wish.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[J.T.B.]

The TOS rank title for 2.5 stripes is "captain," it's about as canonical as you can get.


Justin

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

And it seems clear that the rank stripe system was changed at least twice:

- in between The Cage and WNMHGB
- in between WNMHGB and the rest of TOS

 

[F. King Daniel]

And it seems clear that the rank stripe system was changed at least twice:

- in between The Cage and WNMHGB
- in between WNMHGB and the rest of TOS

Only if you take pilot episodes literally. I'd say the incorrect rank stripes, along with James R. Kirk, lasers, smiling Spock, "time warp factors" and UESPA were retconned out of existence by the series proper, not evidence of any changes in-universe. Hence the more modern incarnations of Trek set before and around that era (ENT and STXI) using the modern/retconned terminology (warp factor, Starfleet etc), and even the USS Kelvin having the TOS proper rank stripes.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ You forgot the most important retcon of all:

"THE WOMEN!!"

 

[Kruezerman]

No one laughed at my little story...

 

[J.T.B.]

Only if you take pilot episodes literally. I'd say the incorrect rank stripes, along with James R. Kirk, lasers, smiling Spock, "time warp factors" and UESPA were retconned out of existence by the series proper, not evidence of any changes in-universe.

I don't object to that in principle, but "The Menagerie" makes it hard to justify writing off everything in "The Cage."

Justin

 

[RPJOB]

And it seems clear that the rank stripe system was changed at least twice:

- in between The Cage and WNMHGB
- in between WNMHGB and the rest of TOS

Only if you take pilot episodes literally. I'd say the incorrect rank stripes, along with James R. Kirk, lasers, smiling Spock, "time warp factors" and UESPA were retconned out of existence by the series proper, not evidence of any changes in-universe. Hence the more modern incarnations of Trek set before and around that era (ENT and STXI) using the modern/retconned terminology (warp factor, Starfleet etc), and even the USS Kelvin having the TOS proper rank stripes.

UESPA was referred to during the series itself, in Tomorrow is Yesterday and Charlie X.

 

[Timo]

And the uniforms from "Where No Man" continued to be utilized, with their original braid, in "Charlie X". If the braid system had really undergone some sort of a change, it would be intolerable to have two styles in service simultaneously, one with 2 stripes meaning Captain and another with 2 stripes meaning Commander.

In contrast, there'd be nothing intolerable about Kirk being a Commander in his first onscreen appearance... And Pike being just a Lieutenant might help explain why he is so easily thrown into despair by light losses - it's one of his earliest missions as starship CO.

The TOS rank title for 2.5 stripes is "captain," it's about as canonical as you can get.

As is the rank title for 1.5 stripes being "commander". Doesn't mean there wouldn't exist two different ranks that are both called Commander, or two different ranks that are both called Lieutenant - or two different ranks that are both called Captain.

Of course, Kirk's full rank is Captain in "Court Martial", probably making 3 stripes Fleet Captain after all. That is, if we ignore the fact that Spock's full rank is Lieutenant Commander despite him wearing 2 stripes. If we take that into account, perhaps Kirk is a three-striper by his "real" rank, regardless of what is on his sleeve?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[137th Gebirg]

^^^ IIRC, there are precedents of Commanders and lower grades in charge of modern Naval vessels, yet still retain the brevet title of "Captain" while in command, officially. More out of tradition than anything else.

The only problem with this is that usually applies to smaller support vessels, not the seafaring equivalent of the Enterprise, which would be more of a ship-of-the-line/flagship.

 

[Timo]

...Which brings us to the interesting point of Pike's ship having only half the crew attributed to Kirk's later command of the same vessel, and apparently doing some sort of a milk run to Rigel (a system retroactively described as well known, perhaps even "domesticated" and sympathetic to the UFP if not an outright member) and then heading all the way back to Vega when there are casualties.

Perhaps the Enterprise was a support vessel at the time?

Or conversely (and bringing this back to the STXI context), perhaps high-ranking people such as Captains (j.g.) and Commodores being aboard Constitution class vessels in the 2260s was a phenomenon similar to having a full Captain aboard the Grissom in ST3? That is, a smallish support vessel was being utilized in prestigious exploration missions with veterans in command because it suited those missions better than the principal behemoths of the time (ships the size of the Kelvin or the Truman) did?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[RPJOB]

There was also one instance during TOS where we saw a crew member in blue with a single broken stripe. Lt. j.g. or something else? If j.g. is an actual rank, why do we only see one of them?

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x04hd/thenakedtimehd0200.jpg

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

If j.g. is an actual rank, why do we only see one of them?

One's all we need.

 

[J.T.B.]

And the uniforms from "Where No Man" continued to be utilized, with their original braid, in "Charlie X". If the braid system had really undergone some sort of a change, it would be intolerable to have two styles in service simultaneously, one with 2 stripes meaning Captain and another with 2 stripes meaning Commander.

Personally, I think Antares was supposed to be a merchant vessel, so the stripes don't have to agree 100% with Starfleet. But even if they are Starfleet, they could still use the same system, just with the old-style braids instead of the later wavy ones.

Of course, Kirk's full rank is Captain in "Court Martial", probably making 3 stripes Fleet Captain after all. That is, if we ignore the fact that Spock's full rank is Lieutenant Commander despite him wearing 2 stripes. If we take that into account, perhaps Kirk is a three-striper by his "real" rank, regardless of what is on his sleeve?

Yes, there is no way they would be entered into the official court martial record with something other than their actual, legal rank. There is a discrepancy in Spock's case, which we must explain by him having an acting promotion to commander aboard Enterprise or some such. But nothing is at variance in Kirk's case: the rank after commander has 2.5 stripes and is called "captain," and there's no reason to think Kirk is anything else.

There was also one instance during TOS where we saw a crew member in blue with a single broken stripe. Lt. j.g. or something else? If j.g. is an actual rank, why do we only see one of them?

My theory is for "non-hero" costumes is was easier for the wardrobe people to sew down a single stripe of braid than to space out, align and sew down several segments of "broken" braid, so most of the time they didn't bother.

Justin

 

[137th Gebirg]

And the uniforms from "Where No Man" continued to be utilized, with their original braid, in "Charlie X". If the braid system had really undergone some sort of a change, it would be intolerable to have two styles in service simultaneously, one with 2 stripes meaning Captain and another with 2 stripes meaning Commander.

Personally, I think Antares was supposed to be a merchant vessel, so the stripes don't have to agree 100% with Starfleet. But even if they are Starfleet, they could still use the same system, just with the old-style braids instead of the later wavy ones.

Could happen. In Generations, there was a visible mixing-and-matching of traditional TNG uniforms and early DS9/Voyager one-piece uniforms being used at the same time, implying a "transition period" in their lifecycle. No reason that couldn't have happened between "Cage"/"WNMHGB" uniforms being used on older/smaller vessels and what we saw in the production run on newer/bigger ships.

I've always wondered where the hell that one dark bluish-gray sparkly tunic came from that Pike wore in "Cage" with the shoulder boards, and later by Finnegan on the Pleasure Planet. Don't think it's a cadet uniform, as I don't think Pike was supposed to be considered just a cadet in that scene.