I completely understand. I honestly don't think TDKR had that many more silly plot contrivances than the first two films - BB and TDK just did a better job of hiding them in good character development and good pacing, respectively.
"The Dark Knight Rises" Review and Discussion Thread (spoilers)
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I completely understand. I honestly don't think TDKR had that many more silly plot contrivances than the first two films - BB and TDK just did a better job of hiding them in good character development and good pacing, respectively.
I get that this probably can't be a lifetime obsession like in the comics, because there's only so much abuse a real world Batman can take. But I would still expect him to be at it a whole lot longer than THIS.
I don't know if I really want a Batman who can only last 3 or 4 years fighting crime before he has to hang it all up, or who only considers it a short-term job. That to me isn't really Batman anymore. It's just a rich guy running around in military armor playing vigilante (which is basically how he came across in Begins, if you ask me).
I thought TDK did a lot to establish that he really WAS in this for the long-haul, and that he really WAS driven by the same things the Batman of the comics was.
But it turns out.... not so much.
doubleohfive
Fleet Admiral
Did you even watch The Dark Knight? Bruce's whole mission in the thing is to put Harvey up on that pedestal so that he (Bruce) can put down the mantle of Batman and be with Rachel. The discussion at the restaurant (where Harvey makes his oft-quoted "You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain"), and Bruce's later speech to Rachel at the fundraiser about giving up being Batman all support this.
And yes, he chose at the end to take the blame for Harvey's death, but I don't know that I agree that his doing that necessarily equates to his desire or intention to continue being Batman forever.
The whole Bane bomb plot was strange to me and distracted me a lot throughout, I didn't really catch on to why he wanted to hold the city hostage (maybe if I could understood everything he said, thank God Catwoman didn't have some voice affectation). I guess they're really into "breaking" people. Personally, I thought the plot would've worked better without the detonation being inevitable. They could've hit the same story beats with the detonation countdown starting as a failsafe when the device cancelled communication with the bomb. Were they even planning on evacuating before blowing that up?
The 1%'ers must like this movie, those Occupy guys were crazy! Or am I reading too much into that...
It was kind of neat how Anne Hathaway ended up both Catwoman and Batgirl in a way (even with a motorcycle). I liked Joseph Gordon Levitt a lot and didn't see twists coming not being too versed in bat-mythology and having avoided most all discussion and trailers. It was kind of odd not having Bane on the juice.
I thought Bruce was going to rig up some sort of gadget to shoot a line or whatever to get out of that tower but they went the more traditional "digging deep down inside" route. I was confused by those ropes though, seemed like they could just climb or swing on them or whatever. I couldn't figure out where they came from.
I thought it was strange that he didn't try to get Bane the first time from The Bat. Also, what the hell was that truck made of? It shook off missiles like they were bang-snaps.
I didn't sit through the credits, I'm assuming there wasn't some stinger afterward?
I thought it was a decent flick but it never went stratospheric for me. I liked the grounded presentation though I think that relative "realism" sometimes made the fanciful parts harder to swallow. I wouldn't mind giving it a second viewing before making a final verdict though my sore butt is telling me to wait a while before attempting it again.
The 1%'ers must like this movie, those Occupy guys were crazy! Or am I reading too much into that...
It was kind of neat how Anne Hathaway ended up both Catwoman and Batgirl in a way (even with a motorcycle). I liked Joseph Gordon Levitt a lot and didn't see twists coming not being too versed in bat-mythology and having avoided most all discussion and trailers. It was kind of odd not having Bane on the juice.
I thought Bruce was going to rig up some sort of gadget to shoot a line or whatever to get out of that tower but they went the more traditional "digging deep down inside" route. I was confused by those ropes though, seemed like they could just climb or swing on them or whatever. I couldn't figure out where they came from.
I thought it was strange that he didn't try to get Bane the first time from The Bat. Also, what the hell was that truck made of? It shook off missiles like they were bang-snaps.
I didn't sit through the credits, I'm assuming there wasn't some stinger afterward?
I thought it was a decent flick but it never went stratospheric for me. I liked the grounded presentation though I think that relative "realism" sometimes made the fanciful parts harder to swallow. I wouldn't mind giving it a second viewing before making a final verdict though my sore butt is telling me to wait a while before attempting it again.
Tatelia was working on two fronts towards two separate but intertwined goals: 1) destroying Gotham to finish the work her father started in Batman Begins; and 2) gaining vengeance on Bruce/Batman for her father's death.
The plot with the fusion reactor bomb - and Bane's putting the city under siege - were part of accomplishing the first goal, and Tatelia's acquisition of control of the fusion reactor (which also dovetailed with the first goal), Bane and Daggett's bankrupting of Bruce, his and her one-night-stand, his giving her control of Wayne Ent., and her stabbing him at the end were part of accomplishing the second goal.
The plot with the fusion reactor bomb - and Bane's putting the city under siege - were part of accomplishing the first goal, and Tatelia's acquisition of control of the fusion reactor (which also dovetailed with the first goal), Bane and Daggett's bankrupting of Bruce, his and her one-night-stand, his giving her control of Wayne Ent., and her stabbing him at the end were part of accomplishing the second goal.
Its Talia.
I think he's intentionally using a portmanteau.
Obiwanshinobi, Mr. Adventure is right. I did intentionally call her 'Tatelia' (Tate + Talia) in reflection of Marion's dual role in the film.
Pretty much every movie plot has silly contrivances and flaws, when you get down to it. The plot of Casablanca makes far less sense than the plot of TDKR.
oh gotcha. while we're talking about her, did anybody else think her and bruce hooking up in front of the fireplace came out of nowhere?
I just expect that in movies. Connor gets laid in the Highlander movies immediately after basically saying "I am Connor McLeod and I cannot die.".
Grade: A-
For this thread: Good
Before reading anyone else's reviews, pro critic or msg board, here are my summary thoughts.
It's a good film, if long. It's a long film that fills long and while that can be alright for an initial viewing for me personally (see TDK) it means reduced re-watchability. Even though I disagree with the politics of the film Nolan crafted a solid film and solid trilogy. He, Bale, Caine and Freeman may not want or feel a need to come back but clearly Nolan left the door open to this universe.
The movie is more lacking in action pieces, perhaps due to the length? There are long stretches of narrative that seem to drag the film down a few times in the film. The worst is during his time in the, I assume, West African prison cell. I think those sequences could've been moved along better with a montage...something. I felt my back was breaking from being in my theater chair too long while being conveyed that Bruce's back was healing. Marked down a notch for that.
A glaring omission of the narrative was any mention of Joker. THE agent of chaos is never mentioned as chaos is seemingly happening all around. It's only more glaring an omission cause every main player in the saga got some face time EXCEPT Joker. Now, I get the face time, respect for the family. However, some mention of what, where, who the Joker is with or doing seems too much a stretch. Marked down a notch for that.
Alfred actually leaving, while not uncharacteristic of the character I didn't feel it added anything to this particular narrative. Bruce going from seemingly needing a mechanical knee brace pre-back break, to body back in peak shape was just a disconnect really. Over thinking it, I don't think so. Also, did I miss the Mirranda Tate/Talia and Bruce googly eyes at each other? Where did the sudden "let's fuck" moment come from? Marked down a notch for that.
With available rumors months, and months ago it became clear either where those started or that indeed someone did a leak regarding Detective Blake. When his background of having come from a boys home was mentioned it led some credence to the Robin mythos (Jason Todd), then he mentions how he deduced Wayne was Batman (Tim Drake) so the themes were in play. Points there.
Bane coming from a prison. Bane doing the classic back break pose. Bane having affection for Talia. Bane freeing inmates from Blackgate. Selina having her own personal ally/ward with her. All positive inspiration from the comics woven together. Points there.
Gordon getting separated/divorced (can't recall how he phrased it) is a true comic character development. Bruce going into seclusion, taking Batman out of the game ala The Dark Knight Returns was a thread pulled from there woven into this. Separating Gotham from the outside world due to a catastrophe and seeing Kangaroo courts and a struggle for basic necessities pulls from the story lines of Cataclysm where Gotham underwent an earthquake. Points there.
This is neither here nor there and not part of my grading but since the theme was "target the rich" it might've been an interesting visual nod to see perhaps Cobblepot Estate. Maybe being ransacked and/or hearing about squatters taking up there.
So while this saga "appears" to be concluded there really is no reason this universe need not go on. Batman vanished for awhile and came back. Just cause this film ends with him gone again doesn't mean he can't come back. Especially if Robin really gets things up and going in Gotham as the end seems to demonstrate he just might. Nolan set up Robin, perhaps as producer of a 4th film he could help craft another return of the Bat with another installment.
I'm likely going to see this again mid week. That's a few days for this to marinate to test the re-watchability.
For this thread: Good
Before reading anyone else's reviews, pro critic or msg board, here are my summary thoughts.
It's a good film, if long. It's a long film that fills long and while that can be alright for an initial viewing for me personally (see TDK) it means reduced re-watchability. Even though I disagree with the politics of the film Nolan crafted a solid film and solid trilogy. He, Bale, Caine and Freeman may not want or feel a need to come back but clearly Nolan left the door open to this universe.
The movie is more lacking in action pieces, perhaps due to the length? There are long stretches of narrative that seem to drag the film down a few times in the film. The worst is during his time in the, I assume, West African prison cell. I think those sequences could've been moved along better with a montage...something. I felt my back was breaking from being in my theater chair too long while being conveyed that Bruce's back was healing. Marked down a notch for that.
A glaring omission of the narrative was any mention of Joker. THE agent of chaos is never mentioned as chaos is seemingly happening all around. It's only more glaring an omission cause every main player in the saga got some face time EXCEPT Joker. Now, I get the face time, respect for the family. However, some mention of what, where, who the Joker is with or doing seems too much a stretch. Marked down a notch for that.
Alfred actually leaving, while not uncharacteristic of the character I didn't feel it added anything to this particular narrative. Bruce going from seemingly needing a mechanical knee brace pre-back break, to body back in peak shape was just a disconnect really. Over thinking it, I don't think so. Also, did I miss the Mirranda Tate/Talia and Bruce googly eyes at each other? Where did the sudden "let's fuck" moment come from? Marked down a notch for that.
With available rumors months, and months ago it became clear either where those started or that indeed someone did a leak regarding Detective Blake. When his background of having come from a boys home was mentioned it led some credence to the Robin mythos (Jason Todd), then he mentions how he deduced Wayne was Batman (Tim Drake) so the themes were in play. Points there.
Bane coming from a prison. Bane doing the classic back break pose. Bane having affection for Talia. Bane freeing inmates from Blackgate. Selina having her own personal ally/ward with her. All positive inspiration from the comics woven together. Points there.
Gordon getting separated/divorced (can't recall how he phrased it) is a true comic character development. Bruce going into seclusion, taking Batman out of the game ala The Dark Knight Returns was a thread pulled from there woven into this. Separating Gotham from the outside world due to a catastrophe and seeing Kangaroo courts and a struggle for basic necessities pulls from the story lines of Cataclysm where Gotham underwent an earthquake. Points there.
This is neither here nor there and not part of my grading but since the theme was "target the rich" it might've been an interesting visual nod to see perhaps Cobblepot Estate. Maybe being ransacked and/or hearing about squatters taking up there.
So while this saga "appears" to be concluded there really is no reason this universe need not go on. Batman vanished for awhile and came back. Just cause this film ends with him gone again doesn't mean he can't come back. Especially if Robin really gets things up and going in Gotham as the end seems to demonstrate he just might. Nolan set up Robin, perhaps as producer of a 4th film he could help craft another return of the Bat with another installment.
I'm likely going to see this again mid week. That's a few days for this to marinate to test the re-watchability.
I figured Nolan would be above that cliche, I was mistaken. Oh well.
doubleohfive
Fleet Admiral
More interestingly is that Bruce's tryst with Miranda/Talia is the first time in the Nolan films Bruce gets any "action," as it were. Apart from some smooching at the end of Batman Begins, we never see him romancing anyone (which led to my theory that the whole reason he's such a good "angry" Batman is because he just really needs to get laid. Sure enough, once he does, he gets the shit kicked out of him by Bane. 
Blake's first name might be Robin, but the film's ending rather heavily implies that Batman will eventually re-emerge, and that when it happens, it will happen with Blake wearing the cowl, armor, and cape.
More interestingly is that Bruce's tryst with Miranda/Talia is the first time in the Nolan films Bruce gets any "action," as it were. Apart from some smooching at the end of Batman Begins, we never see him romancing anyone (which led to my theory that the whole reason he's such a good "angry" Batman is because he just really needs to get laid. Sure enough, once he does, he gets the shit kicked out of him by Bane.
By god, Talia thought of everything! She's diabolical!
Greg, was there any real build up to their nookie in the script?
I'm not in favour of any further works in the Nolanverse - I think Nolan's said what he wanted to say here and it's time to pass the cowl to the next creative team as the film passed it to John Blake - but I'd be particularly opposed to any film that returns Christian Bale to being Batman. That would just rob this movie of the significance of Wayne's entire character arc here. Wayne is done being Batman, it's Blake's turn to be Gotham's superhero.
...although, yeah, sure, I'd like a Catwoman movie as much as the next person, but what chance is there of that happening anyway (and this Catwoman has settled down happily with Bruce Wayne, so... eh.)
I enjoyed the heck out of Dark Knight Rises. And I also enjoyed Prometheus, and in each case it was in spite of their faults. One can pick apart the logic in plot terms of the prison hole, for example, but dramatically and emotionally it was where the movie needed Batman to be: Unable to save his city, unable to do anything at all. That entire stretch about DKR is about the situation getting worse and worse and the film's heroes being either unsuccessful (Gordon, Blake) untrustworthy (Catwoman) or simply impotent (Batman). There's a lot that works for the film even if it doesn't make sense in other ways, if that makes any sense.
...although, yeah, sure, I'd like a Catwoman movie as much as the next person, but what chance is there of that happening anyway (and this Catwoman has settled down happily with Bruce Wayne, so... eh.)
Me neither, to be honest. I was emphasizing the logical flaws of the film in that post there because the person I was talking to felt that it isn't fair to compare the Dark Knight Rises to Prometheus because Prometheus cannot be considered a good film due to its galling plot holes - to which I pointed out DKR also has some big plot holes.
I enjoyed the heck out of Dark Knight Rises. And I also enjoyed Prometheus, and in each case it was in spite of their faults. One can pick apart the logic in plot terms of the prison hole, for example, but dramatically and emotionally it was where the movie needed Batman to be: Unable to save his city, unable to do anything at all. That entire stretch about DKR is about the situation getting worse and worse and the film's heroes being either unsuccessful (Gordon, Blake) untrustworthy (Catwoman) or simply impotent (Batman). There's a lot that works for the film even if it doesn't make sense in other ways, if that makes any sense.
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