Was Alliances a Turning Point for Voyager?

[The Overlord]

Sfdebris recently reviewed the episode "Alliances" and stated that Alliances was a turning point for Voyager, that this episode was the point where Voyager went from a show that could have taken risks to a show that plays it safe all the time. Is that a fair criticism?

http://blip.tv/sf-debris-opinionated-reviews/voy-alliances-review-6262976

 

[MacLeod]

Haven't seen the review yet, but to quote Kirk "Risk is Our Business"

 

[The Overlord]

Haven't seen the review yet, but to quote Kirk "Risk is Our Business"

Well listen to last part of the review, that goes to the point that this episode was a turning point where Voyager as a show was set as something that never takes risks.

 

[Guy Gardener]

If you connect the dots, this was the show that talked about how African Americans can obsess on how slavery a few hundred years ago still defines any current shortfalls to their character or finances.

Exactly who on Voyager's writing staff wasn't a rich old white guy?

 

[R. Star]

I wouldn't call it a turning point. A turning point indicates a change of some sort. It was just another missed oppurtunity in a show that had many of them.

The lone Federation ship in the Delta Quadrant with at least a third of the crew being terrorists used to doing whatever they can to survive, they could have had all kinds of oppurtunities to tell some incredible stories.

Instead the ship clings to the Federation values so rigidly, despite it's situation, it's almost a parody and the Maquis, which season 7 of TNG and season 2 of DS9 went to so much trouble to flesh out for them, end up being assimilated more efficently than the Borg could.

 

[G2309]

Perhaps a pivot point for Voyager as it was an early episode. But i disagree that it was a pivot for the franchise, as Ds9 did alot of good stuff after this.

 

[Guy Gardener]

That guy thinks he's opinionated?

fair and balanced.

Meek even.

[Brig]
JANEWAY: Nice hair.
DALA: It's not really my taste.
JANEWAY: Posing as a Starfleet Captain, selling memberships to the Federation. Too bad we didn't think of it, Tuvok. Imagine the resources we could have acquired over the past six years.
TUVOK: Indeed.
JANEWAY: I have to admit I'm impressed.
DALA: I wish I could say the same. The great Captain Janeway. Somehow I expected you to be taller. I make a better you than you.

Empire building gives me a Woody too.

Meanwhile Janeway actually became a warlord of a vituperating band of thugs and wayfarers in Void and rather than maintaining their alliance for collective power to maintain a firm stand against the next bunch of assholes over metaphorical horizon, her union folded instantly the immediate peril dissipated.

And frankly? Why the frak did she not take a leadership role in the Borg Civil war?

kathy could have come home not just as a hero but Santa Claus with a few thousand transwarp coils in cargo bay Two.

 

[Anwar]

The lone Federation ship in the Delta Quadrant with at least a third of the crew being terrorists used to doing whatever they can to survive, they could have had all kinds of oppurtunities to tell some incredible stories.

Not really no. VOY suffered from conceptual problems, the Maquis being one of the biggest alongside the "Always on the move" plot.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

VOY suffered from being Star Trek.

 

[R. Star]

The lone Federation ship in the Delta Quadrant with at least a third of the crew being terrorists used to doing whatever they can to survive, they could have had all kinds of oppurtunities to tell some incredible stories.

Not really no. VOY suffered from conceptual problems, the Maquis being one of the biggest alongside the "Always on the move" plot.

The on the move problem was there. It was almost silly that somehow Culluh's ship must have been tailing them for the better part of two years in seasons 1 and 2.

The Maquis would have been a great tool to do things in a more rough around the edges way instead of the same Federation dogma TNG and DS9 exposed us to.

Forging alliances, doing underhanded deals, conflicts among the Voyager crew, this could have been some great story telling. But Voyager's writers as a whole didn't want to expand too far outside the status quo.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Chakotay raped his girlfriend.

(And transporters.)

The Kazon were still sailing about in the ships they stole form the Trabe 50 years earlier, so I'm not sure how Seska thought this gypsie trash was going to build more Voyagers, or use Voyagers database to build Soverign Class warships, since they don't seem to have any infrastructure to survive as an industrialized society. in another 50 years, the kazon would be done when the Trabe technology they "liberated" finally gives up the ghost.

 

[Anwar]

The Maquis would have been a great tool to do things in a more rough around the edges way instead of the same Federation dogma TNG and DS9 exposed us to.

No, they weren't different enough from the Feds for it to work right. Especially in the given situation. They'd have been better off if they'd used REAL enemies of the Federation like the Romulans as the "other crew". People were REAL differences and REAL bad history.

Forging alliances, doing underhanded deals, conflicts among the Voyager crew, this could have been some great story telling. But Voyager's writers as a whole didn't want to expand too far outside the status quo.

Nah, not with the Maquis and not with the "Never stay in one place" type of storytelling. VOY's own situation just wasn't interesting enough to last more than 2 seasons. They needed some kind of big Delta Quadrant plot to keep them in the DQ and drive the series.

 

[RyuRoots]

No, but it should have been. It is, however, a sad sign of the sort of mediocrity that often got forced on the show.

They could have started building new alliances and making major waves in the DQ. Instead, we get the most pat TV ending possible with a "we're sticking to our principles because I'm an idiot" speech.

 

[MacLeod]

Question do we think VOY lived up to it's original premise?

 

[Lynx]

I don't think that i"Alliances" was a turning point in any way. Just a very good episode. But sometimes I wonder if Janeway shouldn't have swallowed her pride and continued with some sort of alliance with the Trabe. After all, they did have a decent fleet which could have escorted Voyager out of Kazon territory.

But then we wouldn't have had excellent episodes like "Investigations" and "Basics".

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

Question do we think VOY lived up to it's original premise?

No, it changed premises and did a respectable job with its new ones.

 

[sonak]

The lone Federation ship in the Delta Quadrant with at least a third of the crew being terrorists used to doing whatever they can to survive, they could have had all kinds of oppurtunities to tell some incredible stories.

Not really no. VOY suffered from conceptual problems, the Maquis being one of the biggest alongside the "Always on the move" plot.

The on the move problem was there. It was almost silly that somehow Culluh's ship must have been tailing them for the better part of two years in seasons 1 and 2.

The Maquis would have been a great tool to do things in a more rough around the edges way instead of the same Federation dogma TNG and DS9 exposed us to.

Forging alliances, doing underhanded deals, conflicts among the Voyager crew, this could have been some great story telling. But Voyager's writers as a whole didn't want to expand too far outside the status quo.

Yes, this. Why exactly did the Kazon spend TWO YEARS chasing Voyager? Or is Nistrom space just that big?

The fact that this was never brought up was just sloppy writing.


Oh, and the b.s. that sharing technology was a PD issue, which it wasn't, as Janeway ends up sharing technology with the Hirogen almost casually at a later point.

 

[The Overlord]

I don't think that i"Alliances" was a turning point in any way. Just a very good episode. But sometimes I wonder if Janeway shouldn't have swallowed her pride and continued with some sort of alliance with the Trabe. After all, they did have a decent fleet which could have escorted Voyager out of Kazon territory.

But then we wouldn't have had excellent episodes like "Investigations" and "Basics".

I would have no problem giving up two or three episodes, for a needed change to the status quo, stronger narrative and return to show's original premise.

I think Voyager's big problem was it felt like almost every episode, especially ones from the first couple of seasons, always hit the reset button, instead of trying to tell a compelling continuing narrative on how they get home. How can there be a compelling narrative about them returning home, when almost every episode hits the reset button.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ResetButton

 

[DarKush]

If you connect the dots, this was the show that talked about how African Americans can obsess on how slavery a few hundred years ago still defines any current shortfalls to their character or finances.

Exactly who on Voyager's writing staff wasn't a rich old white guy?

I think you're being ironic, but for those who don't know, FYI, slavery in the US ended in 1865. That's not a 'few hundred' years ago. And after slavery it was followed up by nearly a century of segregation, which legally ended in the 1960s, but the country still feels the effects of. My parents grew up in the segregated South, so I'm only one generation removed from that. History isn't as far away as we sometimes like to think.

Furthermore, 'obsessing' over slavery for an African American, IMO, is no different than all Americans 'obsessing' over the American Revolution. The slave experience birthed black Americans. It's shadow will always loom large, especially when racism and racial disparities remain. I think it will always be a part of who American born blacks are, and it should be something that all Americans 'obsess' over in terms of research and study, because I think it says a lot about the American experience.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Kenneth Biller supplied the text for the back of the a kazon Voyager trading card stating that the origin in the real world for the kazon was an alegory LA gang problems. Maybe that's more Latino than black, LA is not completely within my bailiwick, but when you add that the Kazons used to be slaves it kind of limits who Ken, Jeri and Rick were really thinking about when they were putting their kazon stories together. Further more, making the kazon savage thug tribal idiots who are over their head trying to keep a type 1 civilization afloat, it quite makes you wonder what would have happened if the "19th century negros" had disposed of all the white people instead of waiting for Lincoln, and how little respect black people get still today.

My sarcasm is directed at Voyagers producers.