Equinox and Ransom - were they justified in using aliens as fuel?

[Camren]

I assume people still eat meat in the Federation? Can't be all replicated junk. So if killing animals to eat meat is okay, why not killing of some extra-dimensional beings to ensure their survival?
There didn't appear to be any real intelligence in those creatures, maybe slightly higher than the average cow or goat that is consumed by humans back on earth. But still an animal of sorts.
Personally I think Janeway was too harsh on them and should have been a bit more understanding considering the Equinox crew was in such dire straits.

 

[R. Star]

I assume people still eat meat in the Federation? Can't be all replicated junk. So if killing animals to eat meat is okay, why not killing of some extra-dimensional beings to ensure their survival?
There didn't appear to be any real intelligence in those creatures, maybe slightly higher than the average cow or goat that is consumed by humans back on earth. But still an animal of sorts.
Personally I think Janeway was too harsh on them and should have been a bit more understanding considering the Equinox crew was in such dire straits.

The way they were able to coordinate their attacks on Equinox and adapt their tactics is proof of intelligence. They were able to talk with them too once they had that alien guy with the summoner thing interpret for them. They sure targetted the fuel thing they were using the space slugs in with a vendetta too.

Was Ransom morally in the wrong? Yes.

Was Janeway's response out of porportion, hypocritical and down right insane at times? Yes.

First of all, it's not like she hadn't done some immoral things in her own command. Murdering Tuvix comes to mind for example. She decided all alone that she was going to kill one person against their will for the welare of two. Even the EMH thought that was unethical.

The alliance with the Borg is another example. She basically agreed to help the Borg kill their enemies in order to get home. I can't see how that's any more moral than using space slugs for biofuel.

Then her response to this. Sure, Ransom is morally in the wrong as I said. Janeway's response is to act as judge, jury and executioner all at once. Even when she captured his crew members she basically said, "I will kill you if you don't tell me how to find your captain so I can kill him for betraying the Federation's principles." Here's your hypocrite sign, Captain Janeway.

Even Chakotay, the freaking terrorist, had to restrain her little torture/execution thing. He had the right idea, instead of going off half cocked on some vengeful vendetta, try and make contact with the aliens. Oh and wait.. it even worked!

Ransom really wasn't a "bad guy" so to say more than a tragic character. It all started so innocently.. they didn't mean to kill the first one and it was already dead. Why not use it? Things were bad for that crew and it's easy to bend under pressure.

The fact that Ransom was trying so hard to justify this to himself, and could name the exact number that he had killed, meant he was remorseful on some level. You could argue one way or another if his crew deserves a death sentence, but I don't think Janeway alone should have been the one to decide that. Clearly her judgement isn't exactly sound in this episode.

 

[Violet.Phoenix]

As stated above, Ransom was clearly in the wrong when it came to deciding the fates of these creatures. I simply cannot justify the killing of these intelligent creatures for the use of fuel.

Now before someone brings up the slaughter of animals for food in our current society, let me state that in that respect I am on the fence, because yes those creatures do have a form of intelligence. Is it the same as these beings that were killed by Ransom? No.

And then of course comes Janeway's decision. Was she a little over-the-top at times? Yes, and the incident with Lessing's interrogation comes to mind. However, she could not just excuse what they did; she had to take some action.

Although, holding one of Ransom's crew out like an offering wouldn't be my choice of action...

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Now before someone brings up the slaughter of animals for food in our current society, let me state that in that respect I am on the fence, because yes those creatures do have a form of intelligence. Is it the same as these beings that were killed by Ransom? No.

Exactly. Whatever mental processes might be occurring in a cow's mind, they are not sentient. These aliens were. The fact that they were so able to kill the Equinox's crew at will, pretty much seals the deal.

And perhaps more importantly, also unlike these aliens, cows cannot fight back. Animals kill each other for food all the time. Whichever animal is stronger, wins. Same story here, really: humans eating cows for food is this struggle once again, played out on yet another level.

Or as Ron White once said: "I didn't claw my way to the top of the %$%#^ food chain to eat CARROTS."

 

[Guy Gardener]

From The Lonely Among Us

TASHA: Sorry to call you, sir. Not strictly security. It's about the dietary requirements of the Antican delegates.
RIKER: I thought that had been taken care of in advance, Tasha.
TASHA: So did we, sir. Their live animals were beamed aboard. We were going to preserve the meat for them, but they say we must bring it to them alive.
RIKER: Then do so. Lieutenant Yar was confused. We no longer enslave animals for food purposes.
ANTICAN: But we have seen humans eat meat.
RIKER: You've seen something as fresh and tasty as meat, but inorganically materialised out of patterns used by our transporters.
ANTICAN: This is sickening. It's barbaric.

Enslaving animals means no farms I'd take it.

But hunting free game would still be on the books since there is an abundance of proof that humanity still consumes a lot of meat.

The beasties from Equinox could talk.

If someone or something says "please don't kill me"

99 times out of a hundred you don't kill them.

If the Dread Fucking Pirate Roberts can be swayed by a "please" then why is Kathryn's heart made out of fricking flint?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

If the "Dish of the Day" from HHGTTG really existed - an animal that actually wanted to be eaten and was capable of articulating this - I wonder if anyone's mind would change...

 

[R. Star]

Well the debate on the ethics of eating animals is something completely different. I have no opinion on the issue save I enjoy eating my steak and I think it's presumptious when people get in my face about that.

Violet is obviously has a kinder disposition toward Janeway than I do, but for the most part we agreed on this point, which is telling. I definitely wasn't saying she should let Ransom off scot free, but she was putting going after Ransom ahead of stopped the space slugs from attacking Voyager.

Honestly the biggest parallel to this episode is "The Wounded." Benjamin Maxwell and Picard as opposed to Ransom and Janeway. At the end of "The Wounded" it was clear Maxwell would be punished, but he would also be remembered for the good he had done and pitied for having fallen from grace. I wonder if Janeway would have hunted down Maxwell regardless of the consequences of a possible war with Cardassia. This is really how the episode should have been resolved in a satisfying manner.

Equinox set up an EXCELLENT moral dilemnia for the good guys. Likeable antagonists, easy to relate with and pity for how they had fallen. Sad to say, I honestly think they smeared their own faces in the mud a bit in this episode, all while preaching their high Federation values.

 

[Violet.Phoenix]

Now before someone brings up the slaughter of animals for food in our current society, let me state that in that respect I am on the fence, because yes those creatures do have a form of intelligence. Is it the same as these beings that were killed by Ransom? No.

Exactly. Whatever mental processes might be occurring in a cow's mind, they are not sentient. These aliens were. The fact that they were so able to kill the Equinox's crew at will, pretty much seals the deal.

And perhaps more importantly, also unlike these aliens, cows cannot fight back. Animals kill each other for food all the time. Whichever animal is stronger, wins. Same story here, really: humans eating cows for food is this struggle once again, played out on yet another level.

Or as Ron White once said: "I didn't claw my way to the top of the %$%#^ food chain to eat CARROTS."

Indeed this is true. The only thing that worries me about stating that animals fight and the superior one wins is that it could somehow justify this as some sort of natural selection thing. Which I don't think it is.

I think a good question is: are the aliens stronger than the humans? Both have the ability to fight back, but both have found ways to overcome obstacles put in their way. So is it a battle or a drawn-out stalemate?

Violet is obviously has a kinder disposition toward Janeway than I do,

You got me there However, I do not agree with all of her decisions. The mission to board the sphere in "Dark Frontier" for instance.

 

[Guy Gardener]

In Dark Frontier the writers had Janeway made a realistic choice with realistic consequences so that Seven of nine could unrealistically Mary Sue the day.

If they ate the dish of the day, who would have replaced Tom Baker?

You know who doesn't believe in natural selection? Communists.

 

[Timewalker]

To answer the OP's question: HELL, NO!!! They were NOT justified in using sentient, self-aware PEOPLE as fuel! Not any more than using sentient, self-aware WHALES is justified today. I truly hope the Cetacean Bill of Rights goes through. Of course that means we'll have to stop dumping crap into the oceans and clean up the mess we've already made there, but maybe it'll make US grow up as a species!

 

[Captain_Nick]

It would have been a better idea if those alien creatures were as placid and defenseless as cows. Unfortunately the beasts could fight back. Well done Ransom...

Morally there is no issue - do what you gotta do to get home. Amazing that Janeway and co never figured that out.

 

[R. Star]

To answer the OP's question: HELL, NO!!! They were NOT justified in using sentient, self-aware PEOPLE as fuel! Not any more than using sentient, self-aware WHALES is justified today. I truly hope the Cetacean Bill of Rights goes through. Of course that means we'll have to stop dumping crap into the oceans and clean up the mess we've already made there, but maybe it'll make US grow up as a species!

Probably a good idea, given the supposed intelligence and sentience of whales is highly debatable, to stay on the topic of the episode. One debate at a time, and I'm sure there's room for a thread on that topic in the miscellaneous forum.

 

[R. Star]

It would have been a better idea if those alien creatures were as placid and defenseless as cows. Unfortunately the beasts could fight back. Well done Ransom...

Morally there is no issue - do what you gotta do to get home. Amazing that Janeway and co never figured that out.

Been watching Living Witness a few too many times?

 

[Violet.Phoenix]

In Dark Frontier the writers had Janeway made a realistic choice with realistic consequences so that Seven of nine could unrealistically Mary Sue the day.

Realistic consequence, yes, but I hardly agree about the decision. It may have been opportune given their circumstances, but Janeway thinking that she can just waltz onto a damaged Borg sphere and steal a transwarp coil? Uhh... tell me what's wrong with that picture?

To answer the OP's question: HELL, NO!!! They were NOT justified in using sentient, self-aware PEOPLE as fuel! Not any more than using sentient, self-aware WHALES is justified today. I truly hope the Cetacean Bill of Rights goes through. Of course that means we'll have to stop dumping crap into the oceans and clean up the mess we've already made there, but maybe it'll make US grow up as a species!

Completely agree. Using sentient life forms as a crude fuel source out of simple convienence is disgusting and unethical.

And much agreed about the whales and such. People think that nature is infinite and just because it's there now they think that it will always be there.

Morally there is no issue - do what you gotta do to get home. Amazing that Janeway and co never figured that out.

So let's say you're the captain of a ship stranded tens of thousands of light years from home. If 'doing what you have to do to get home' entailed sacrificing a great number of your crew unnecessarily, would you still say that there is no moral issue?

What Janeway figured out was that in those uncharted waters was that you had to grow a spine the size of a whale.

 

[Captain_Nick]

Unnecessarily? Of course I wouldn't. If I had to? Well ... it depends on the size of the disaster. I would certainly slaughter a few alien cows if it meant turning a 75 year trip into a 6 month trip.

 

[R. Star]

Unnecessarily? Of course I wouldn't. If I had to? Well ... it depends on the size of the disaster. I would certainly slaughter a few alien cows if it meant turning a 75 year trip into a 6 month trip.

Don't say that too loud. Janeway will hunt you down and KILL you.

 

[Violet.Phoenix]

Unnecessarily? Of course I wouldn't. If I had to? Well ... it depends on the size of the disaster. I would certainly slaughter a few alien cows if it meant turning a 75 year trip into a 6 month trip.

Don't say that too loud. Janeway will hunt you down and KILL you.

Maybe not kill...she may just offer him up to some alien sharks in peace by saying "Here, sharky, sharky."

 

[T'Girl]

Honestly the biggest parallel to this episode is "The Wounded."

There is also the VOY episode "Imperfection." Where Janeway was prepared to (but didn't) kill a living Borg drone to obtain a Borg implant, to replace the malfunctioning one in Seven's head.

We know through the experience of Picard that the Borg are slaves and not in control of their own actions, so Janeway was going to kill a innocent slave to "harvest a internal organ."

The way they were able to coordinate their attacks on Equinox and adapt their tactics is proof of intelligence.

Not necessarily, their intelligence and ability to coordinate could indicate they possessed intellect of a pack of wolves.

To answer the OP's question: HELL, NO!!! They were NOT justified in using sentient, self-aware PEOPLE as fuel!

But would your objection remain if the lovely, harmless, gentle creatures were just that, creatures? A beast of the fields.

So let's say you're the captain of a ship stranded tens of thousands of light years from home. If 'doing what you have to do to get home' entailed sacrificing a great number of your crew unnecessarily, would you still say that there is no moral issue?

Which is exactly what happen, admittedly not in "great numbers." Janeway could have settled her crew on a suitable class M planet, instead she made the decision to travel back to Earth, a seventy year trip.

She loses two dozen of her crew, more still in the timeline without Admiral Janeway's appearance. That's the cost of "doing what you have to do to get home."

 

[R. Star]

Not necessarily, their intelligence and ability to coordinate could indicate they possessed intellect of a pack of wolves.

Along with their coordinated attacks, which seem to actively adapt to their shield tactics, they talked to them through that alien guy, and when they did penetrate Equinox they targeted that engine that was fueled by their dead with a vengeance too.

They seem reasonably intelligent to me, even if they aren't up to human intelligence.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

Unnecessarily? Of course I wouldn't. If I had to? Well ... it depends on the size of the disaster. I would certainly slaughter a few alien cows if it meant turning a 75 year trip into a 6 month trip.

Don't say that too loud. Janeway will hunt you down and KILL you.

Janeway overreaction in these episodes grinds my gears. The Equinox crew accidentally kill one of these beings studying it, then realize that they can use it to power their propulsion systems. By this point, the beings are pissed and attacking them relentlessly. They're attacking anyway, and unless Ransom and co. are total morons, they're going to defend themselves (which results in more of the beings' deaths and more carcasses [i.e. "fuel"]). Ransom would ALSO happen to be a moron if he didn't use said carcasses to fuel his damn ship to cut a 75 year trip down to six months.

Now, here's the kicker: Not even two years before, good ol' Kathy Janeway realizes that Voyager's preparing to enter Borg space. She then seals a deal with the Borg that causes the annihilation (or Borgification) of Arturis' entire freaking race. All this death and destruction to cross a 10,000 light-year expanse of the Delta Quadrant. And that whole endeavor goes tits up, so Voyager's still stuck at the entrance of Borg space and Arturis' race still gets destroyed. But, I suppose that's okay, because Voyager is the "hero" ship