Why is Nemesis hated so much?
- Thread starter Kuro Pit
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Ordered in decreasing relevance:
First, the characters feel as flat as in no other TNG story. This is partly due to the director, partly due to the editing (virtually all good scenes of the movie are the ones which have been cut out) and, this might be controversial, partly due to the actors. They have played these roles for years so they also bear some of the blame.
Second, vampires from the dark side of the moon taking over the mighty Romulan Star Empire is an insult to the Rommies who have been virtually totally absent from a movie which should have been about them. NEM and STXI missed the opportunity to tell a great story about one of the best and most underused Trek species.
Third, Shinzon's motivations are guessable (he views himself as Remna, hates his weak human side and project this self-hate upon Picard and humankind) but not actually in the movie. It would have been far more natural if he had tried to blow up Romulus, the homeworld of the people who mistreated him.
Fourth, Stewart ruined his character via his constant demand for more action. He might like fast cars but Picard doesn't and interpreting his actions as midlife crisis is dubious at best.
First, the characters feel as flat as in no other TNG story. This is partly due to the director, partly due to the editing (virtually all good scenes of the movie are the ones which have been cut out) and, this might be controversial, partly due to the actors. They have played these roles for years so they also bear some of the blame.
Second, vampires from the dark side of the moon taking over the mighty Romulan Star Empire is an insult to the Rommies who have been virtually totally absent from a movie which should have been about them. NEM and STXI missed the opportunity to tell a great story about one of the best and most underused Trek species.
Third, Shinzon's motivations are guessable (he views himself as Remna, hates his weak human side and project this self-hate upon Picard and humankind) but not actually in the movie. It would have been far more natural if he had tried to blow up Romulus, the homeworld of the people who mistreated him.
Fourth, Stewart ruined his character via his constant demand for more action. He might like fast cars but Picard doesn't and interpreting his actions as midlife crisis is dubious at best.
I think at the end of the day, the most basic reason for the contempt for Nemesis is that it let us all down.
So many bad choices where made, large and small, by so many people (though I think Stuart Baird as director has to own the lion's share of the blame, with Rick Berman as Trek's overlord as runner-up in the 'buck stops here' department) and... it was like a poorly woven tapestry in the end.
Brent Spiner wanting to be killed off as Data. Patrick Stewart's need for speed and action-hero status rather than recognizing and accepting his age the way Shatner did in TWOK (even if he later pushed back against such a bit). Riker and Troi's departure being present but not real throughout the whole thing. Worf's lack of an explanation for why he had suddenly come back to Starfleet. The useless inclusion of another identical-to-Data Soong type android. The way the Romulans rose as a specter of "yes, finally the Romulans as the baddie in a film!" only to be dashed the more we learned about it. The reveal of the Remans as... well, disappointing as a species as anyone can recall. Tom Hardy's performance (he's got acting chops, but at that time, he was a bit too new and likely had no direction to work from). The lack of any real character growth (that made it to film, IE deleted scenes).
I also think that one or two big key choices could have and should have been made up-front that would have saved the film: with the focus on Romulus, we should have seen a cameo at least of Nimoy as Spock, and we also should have seen Denise Crosby as Sela, whether in the Donatra role or something else.
The whole escapade felt half-hazard and slapped together, when by all rights it should have and could have been so much better.
Even the actors agree with this sentiment. They're all very quick to blame Stuart Baird, and I can't blame them for such.
So many bad choices where made, large and small, by so many people (though I think Stuart Baird as director has to own the lion's share of the blame, with Rick Berman as Trek's overlord as runner-up in the 'buck stops here' department) and... it was like a poorly woven tapestry in the end.
Brent Spiner wanting to be killed off as Data. Patrick Stewart's need for speed and action-hero status rather than recognizing and accepting his age the way Shatner did in TWOK (even if he later pushed back against such a bit). Riker and Troi's departure being present but not real throughout the whole thing. Worf's lack of an explanation for why he had suddenly come back to Starfleet. The useless inclusion of another identical-to-Data Soong type android. The way the Romulans rose as a specter of "yes, finally the Romulans as the baddie in a film!" only to be dashed the more we learned about it. The reveal of the Remans as... well, disappointing as a species as anyone can recall. Tom Hardy's performance (he's got acting chops, but at that time, he was a bit too new and likely had no direction to work from). The lack of any real character growth (that made it to film, IE deleted scenes).
I also think that one or two big key choices could have and should have been made up-front that would have saved the film: with the focus on Romulus, we should have seen a cameo at least of Nimoy as Spock, and we also should have seen Denise Crosby as Sela, whether in the Donatra role or something else.
The whole escapade felt half-hazard and slapped together, when by all rights it should have and could have been so much better.
Even the actors agree with this sentiment. They're all very quick to blame Stuart Baird, and I can't blame them for such.
It's all been said many times before, and you may wish in the future to use the "search" function to see what others have already stated about various topics.
First of all, I'm very glad that you enjoyed the movie.
For me and others, I think we primarily have problems with the quality of writing, particularly with characters acting out-of-character. For example, I was lost with "Shut up" and the dune buggy chase.
What really salted the wound, though, was that Spiner and Stewart blamed the fans for failing to appreciate "The Picard-Data Show," a term I think I coined (no great honor -- it was there for all of us to see). In other words, the two stars with script approval made it all about themselves.
While many here rag on Shatner, I hope they'll notice that he went way out of his way to give everyone good moments in TFF. If we had had the barest glimpse of similar cast camaraderie in NEM, I know that my own feelings toward it would be much warmer.
It's a fiction, of course, that TOS had an ensemble cast (it was just the Big Three -- the rest were day players), but that really was the case with TNG. And the concept was betrayed. It's ironic that with every movie Kirk became less of a romantic/action lead, and that Picard became more and more of one.
So when you get right down to it, NEM was not TNG. Maybe that's a good thing. For you it is, and that's great. For me, I paid for my ticket and popcorn to see TNG.
Maybe a deathbed repentance, but for now it still sucks just as bad as it did ten years ago. It stands as the only Trek film that didn't leave me with a good feeling as I exited the theater. But this wasn't because it ended on a somber note. It was because I felt these people didn't even try to make a good movie this time.
-The characters don't feel like the ones I grew up with.
-The plot is a hackjob rehash of TWOK (for a really good rehash of TWOK, see 2009's Star Trek).
-Shinzon mindrapes Troi. Mwahaha! He's evil, folks! Don't cha get it? Well, yes I do, and I didn't need this completely pointless and uncomfortable scene as a reminder.
-ANOTHER heretofore undiscovered Soong android?! Bitch, please!
-The Remans being depicted as Urk-hai wannabes.
-The photo of Tom Hardy as young Picard. We're supposed to buy that Picard was bald as a youth (in fact, with even LESS hair than he has now), despite contradictory evidence from the TV series.
-Shinzon needing Picard's blood to save his own life, yet putting this supposed dire need on hold at every turn.
-Data's death. Like Kirk's in Generations, this was completely unnecessary and could have easily been avoided. To make matters worse, with B-4 you're essentially implying the same cop-out used to bring Spock back in TSFS. But at least Spock's death meant something. His death taught Kirk a lesson about no-win scenarios and "how we face death is at least as important as how we face life." Data's death has none of this. It's just BOOM! Data's dead. Moving on, with Riker being inexplicably unable to remember the name of the song "Pop Goes the Weasel." One of the easiest song titles in the world to remember, whether you've just lost a friend or not.
-Two words: dune buggy.
-This was Jerry Goldsmith's least inspiring Trek film score, made even more sad by his death a few years later.
The one positive I can draw from this movie is that the opening scene depicting the assassination of the Romulan Senate is just awesome, and was something I did not expect. Kudos for that one.
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Absolutely agree. For all of TFF's faults, interaction between the main cast members isn't one of them. I'd go as far as saying that, in that one regard, it does the best job out of the six TOS movies of duplicating the camaraderie of the original TV show. The plot built around it is another matter entirely.... So, yes, if Nemesis had shown that level of care for the TNG television series camaraderie, it is possible that we might not even be having discussions like these.
Oh there's so much to write...
I'll just stick to one thing--Shinzon.
He is ALL over the place.
He's dying, very soon. He needs Picard for some blood transfusion thing to survive. Shinzon will DIE without Picard's blood. Survival should be Job #1 for Shinzon. But it's not... in fact, he battles and otherwise endangers Picard's life and therefore his own.
He resents and hates the Romulans who imprisoned him in the mines. You'd think his beef would be against those who tormented him his whole life. But it's not.
Instead, he's got to destroy the Federation and wipe out the Earth. What's that all about? What's Shinzon's gripe against the Feds?
He's also got this great revolution to lead, his Reman brothers need to be freed from slavery and oppression. Add that to his to-do list.
Then he's got some personal grudge against Picard, where he can't be his own man unless Picard dies. So Picard must be destroyed for Shinzon to live, but first Picard must live to provide the transfusion to save Shinzon, then Picard can die.
Meanwhile, between dying and misplaced revenge motives and sweeping attacks against enemies and space battles, he finds time to mind-rape Troi, too. Is that just to add "evil" for the plot, or does Shinzon have other problems, too?
I don't know what the hell this guy is supposed to be about or what he needs to do or what's his plan or why.
I'll just stick to one thing--Shinzon.
He is ALL over the place.
He's dying, very soon. He needs Picard for some blood transfusion thing to survive. Shinzon will DIE without Picard's blood. Survival should be Job #1 for Shinzon. But it's not... in fact, he battles and otherwise endangers Picard's life and therefore his own.
He resents and hates the Romulans who imprisoned him in the mines. You'd think his beef would be against those who tormented him his whole life. But it's not.
Instead, he's got to destroy the Federation and wipe out the Earth. What's that all about? What's Shinzon's gripe against the Feds?
He's also got this great revolution to lead, his Reman brothers need to be freed from slavery and oppression. Add that to his to-do list.
Then he's got some personal grudge against Picard, where he can't be his own man unless Picard dies. So Picard must be destroyed for Shinzon to live, but first Picard must live to provide the transfusion to save Shinzon, then Picard can die.
Meanwhile, between dying and misplaced revenge motives and sweeping attacks against enemies and space battles, he finds time to mind-rape Troi, too. Is that just to add "evil" for the plot, or does Shinzon have other problems, too?
I don't know what the hell this guy is supposed to be about or what he needs to do or what's his plan or why.
I always laugh at the things people get hung up on. It's quite possible he simply shaved his head at some point while in the Academy. Many people go through multiple hairstyles over a lifetime.
So I don't see it as being contradictory to the TV series.
I didn't really care for Nemesis when it first came out. After realizing that ENT wasn't my cup of tea, I was really looking forward to a return to the 24th-Century at the time. What I got, however, was a less than amazing final nail in the coffin of the era. My disappointment was extremely high, because for all intents and purposes back in '02, my Trekking days were over.
It actually took me less than 10 years to do that. I think I went five or six years before I saw Nemesis for the second time (the longest I ever went without seeing a Trek movie twice). And while all the things I thought could have been done better were still there, I found myself not caring the second time around and liked it a lot better than I did the first time. For me, I think I saw it from a more casual perspective and just had fun with it, "flaws and all."Stephen! said:
I've had a similar reaction to it. Disliked it when it came out, but after watching it more over the years, I've come to think of it as decent, and certainly better than "Insurrection," which unlike NEM, doesn't get better with repeat viewings.
I always laugh at the things people get hung up on. It's quite possible he simply shaved his head at some point while in the Academy. Many people go through multiple hairstyles over a lifetime.
So I don't see it as being contradictory to the TV series.
I'll admit that one's way over on the nitpicky side of things, but I threw it in there anyway.
Yea, I definitely like it better than Insurrection, sure, it could've been much better, but, I sure don't loathe it, and as said, like it more than Insurrection
I actually didn't mind Insurrection at all, but I do rank it below Nemesis these days (that wasn't the case ten years ago, though).
I can't believe it's been almost ten years since Nemesis! I saw it when it was released on VHS, and loved it. I still do. I'd stopped caring about Trek at the time, and it got me into it again.
I had no idea what it was going to be about other than Romulans and spaceships crashing from the TV commercials, so everything was fresh with no preconceptions.
I had no idea what it was going to be about other than Romulans and spaceships crashing from the TV commercials, so everything was fresh with no preconceptions.
I always laugh at the things people get hung up on. It's quite possible he simply shaved his head at some point while in the Academy. Many people go through multiple hairstyles over a lifetime.
So I don't see it as being contradictory to the TV series.
Picard just went through a neo-Nazi phase? Or was he always balding and just bought progressively thinner toupes as he got older?
But on topic, the whole premise of Nemesis is just a fail. The Remans. This race supposedly "bred for war" Highly xenophobic and thinking themselves superior. So why are they even following Shinzon at all? He's a human slave. Like all xenophobes they should treat him as a second class citizen, no matter how fond of him that Viceroy might be. By all accounts he should have been the one calling the shots and maybe just indulging Shinzon, his favorite pet friend, by bringing Picard in for the transfusion whatever.
For that matter how did a group of slave miners, manage to secretly build a super death ship, complete with a doomsday weapon and a cloaking device more advanced than anything the Romulans had? Did they just have research labortories in those mineshafts that the Romulans missed? Not to mention a fully functional ship yard, material, manpower to build it, and the technical know how. I don't know too many miners and soldiers that can build a functional naval ship nonetheless a spaceship.
Also, the Remans... what axe do they have to grind with the Federation? We overthrew our oppressors, yay! What's the first thing we do? Let's take on our oppressor's enemies! That makes perfect sense. What? Use this doomsday weapon we pulled out of our asses on our oppressors? No, that makes no sense whatsoever.
And really for a race "bred for war" they get shotdown by the dozens. Hell you even have Picard dual wielding phasers against em video game style. You'd think they'd be trained in oh... basic marksmanship since they were shock troops during the Dominion war.
Shinzon himself just makes dumb decisions too. What the heck was up with mind raping Troi beyond just showing anyone in the audience that's too dumb to realize it, that he's the bad guy? Not only that, he does it while he's trying to decieve Picard that he's a nice guy. Wow, if only Picard had realized something was up and raised shields after Troi reported that one. I can get that he's curious about Picard and his human side, so I'll give him a pass on delaying things when he could've acted sooner.
Now during the battle, even there Shinzon's dumb. So.. after taking down the Enterprise's shields, he sends his men over to capture Picard for the technobabbletransfuseitwithmydnapwnedlol whatever thing. Makes sense... until he beams them over 10 decks down from Picard. And if that wasn't dumb enough, the very next scene he swings his ship around and blows a freaking hole in the bridge. The one place Picard is guaranteed to be. Maybe he just knew plot shields would protect Picard?
Now the final big flaw in the movie was Data's death. Not the fact that they killed him, but how they did it. So Picard beams over, kills a dozen more Remans and fights Shinzon to death hand to hand. Yeah Stewart always wants the action hero bit, but never quite filled it. Anyways... then when Shinzon dies he just... freezes. Does nothing. He's apparently so upset about killing his clone that was gonna die anyways, he just doesn't care about his ship getting wiped out by the death ray whatever. So Data has to come in and slap the transporter tag thing on him and kamikazee himself. Yep Picard, live with that one. "Data died because I sat on my ass and did nothing."
You wanna kill Data off in a satisfying way? Have the Remans be competant and capture Picard. Have them strapping him to the DNA sucker machine. Then have Data jump in, phaser Shinzon, slap the transporter thing on Picard and blast that power core thing that was convienently on the bridge. That would have been a meaningful sacrifice and one that wouldn't have left you felt wanting.
Apparently there were all kinds of issues with this movie. Apparently the director was so inept he couldn't even remember people's names for example, and the aging crew just almost seemed burned out on this one. So TNG ended with a fizzle and not a boom.
"Hate" is too strong of a word. I just don't care for NEM.
The trailer left me underwhelmed, the idea that the Romulans were the adversaries (which turned out not to be the case) left me underwhelmed, and Shinzon wasn't as interesting as he should've been as a Picard clone.
There wasn't any follow-up to DS9. I know it's a TNG movie, but excluding some glimpes on VOY, we hadn't seen the Post-War AQ. In 2002, I was interesting in seeing something more about that than we did.
I would've left in the character scenes that were cut and lost some of the boring, numbing action sequences.
B-4 was annoying.
What I did like about Nemesis: The soundtrack is terrific. Chilling in some areas. Credit deserves to be given where it's due.
With NEM, Data was at his best in the TNG movies. I don't care if they pretended he never had the emotion chip. I never liked the emotion chip anyway. I'm glad the whole issue was left alone and kept out of the film.
I don't have a problem with Worf returning to Starfleet either. Even as I was watched the DS9 finale in 1999, I didn't think Ambassadorship would agree with him.
It looked like peace might be achieved the Federation and the Romulan Empire.
I knew what FC was about, I even read part of a leaked script. It made me even more excited and interested in the film. I was already picturing the scenes in my head and couldn't wait to see them. Knowing more doesn't always lead to negative expectations. What I knew about NEM simply didn't impress me as much as what I knew about FC.
The trailer left me underwhelmed, the idea that the Romulans were the adversaries (which turned out not to be the case) left me underwhelmed, and Shinzon wasn't as interesting as he should've been as a Picard clone.
There wasn't any follow-up to DS9. I know it's a TNG movie, but excluding some glimpes on VOY, we hadn't seen the Post-War AQ. In 2002, I was interesting in seeing something more about that than we did.
I would've left in the character scenes that were cut and lost some of the boring, numbing action sequences.
B-4 was annoying.
What I did like about Nemesis: The soundtrack is terrific. Chilling in some areas. Credit deserves to be given where it's due.
With NEM, Data was at his best in the TNG movies. I don't care if they pretended he never had the emotion chip. I never liked the emotion chip anyway. I'm glad the whole issue was left alone and kept out of the film.
I don't have a problem with Worf returning to Starfleet either. Even as I was watched the DS9 finale in 1999, I didn't think Ambassadorship would agree with him.
It looked like peace might be achieved the Federation and the Romulan Empire.
I knew what FC was about, I even read part of a leaked script. It made me even more excited and interested in the film. I was already picturing the scenes in my head and couldn't wait to see them. Knowing more doesn't always lead to negative expectations. What I knew about NEM simply didn't impress me as much as what I knew about FC.
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