Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility be?

[Miss Chicken]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

God didn't do it. Moses did.

And there is no proof of God's existence, there is proof that women are sentient or fetuses are not.

 

[Knight Templar]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

God didn't do it. Moses did.

And there is no proof of God's existence, there is proof that women are sentient or fetuses are not.

Depends on how you define "sentient".

And God told Moses to do it so it is effectively the same.

 

[Davros]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

God can do what he wants MS.

Like when he murdered the Egyptian first born sons as punishment for the actions of the Pharaoh that God forced the Pharaoh to take with mind control?

 

[Miss Chicken]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

God didn't do it. Moses did.

And there is no proof of God's existence, there is proof that women are sentient or fetuses are not.

Depends on how you define "sentient".

And God told Moses to do it so it is effectively the same.

As far a sentience go, for humans I will go as low as capable of rudimentary thought, something that a first trimester fetus isn't.

Moses said God told him, which isn't believable at all if one is an atheist.

 

[Knight Templar]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

God can do what he wants MS.

Like when he murdered the Egyptian first born sons as punishment for the actions of the Pharaoh that God forced the Pharaoh to take with mind control?

So. Once again, God can do what he wants.

God didn't do it. Moses did.

And there is no proof of God's existence, there is proof that women are sentient or fetuses are not.

Depends on how you define "sentient".

And God told Moses to do it so it is effectively the same.

As far a sentience go, for humans I will go as low as capable of rudimentary thought, something that a first trimester fetus isn't.

Moses said God told him, which isn't believable at all if one is an atheist.

If you are an atheist, then no argument or evidence will ever convince you anyway so why bother?

 

[cooleddie74]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

Ladies and gentlemen: what absolutely blind, uncritical faith can do to a person.

A proud moment for us all, I imagine.

 

[Davros]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

God can do what he wants MS.

Like when he murdered the Egyptian first born sons as punishment for the actions of the Pharaoh that God forced the Pharaoh to take with mind control?

So. Once again, God can do what he wants.

Like most sociopaths

If you are an atheist, then no argument or evidence will ever convince you anyway so why bother?

So far you have presented no evidence.

 

[auntiehill]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

I thought the thread was about a man's responsibility in the situation, not whether abortion should be legal or not.

The fact is, it IS legal. If, Knight Templar, you want to talk about abortion, why not start another thread all your own and leave this one alone?

 

[Miss Chicken]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

I think abortion is semi-relevant to the discussion because some people seem to think if a woman does not have an abortion she should be willing to raise the child without support from the father.

This overlooks the fact that child support is a child rights issue that doesn't exist until the child is born and shouldn't be influenced by the woman's rights over her own body that exists before birth (generally in most cases those woman's rights issues are resolved several months before the birth of a child) .

 

[Knight Templar]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

I think abortion is semi-relevant to the discussion because some people seem to think if a woman does not have an abortion she should be willing to raise the child without support from the father.

This overlooks the fact that child support is a child rights issue that doesn't exist until the child is born and shouldn't be influenced by the woman's rights over her own body that exists before birth (generally in most cases those woman's rights issues are resolved several months before the birth of a child) .

The reasoning (which makes sense from an equal rights perspective though I disagree with it) is that if a man has no input whatsoever into whether a woman has an abortion or not, then he should have no legal obligation to help care for a child that he might not want.

In short, by making a "woman's right to choose" the absolute, overriding "right" in this argument and following that right with one to force the father to support his child, then you are making the "womans right to choose" completely override EVERY right a man has.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

I think abortion is semi-relevant to the discussion because some people seem to think if a woman does not have an abortion she should be willing to raise the child without support from the father.

This overlooks the fact that child support is a child rights issue that doesn't exist until the child is born and shouldn't be influenced by the woman's rights over her own body that exists before birth (generally in most cases those woman's rights issues are resolved several months before the birth of a child) .

The reasoning (which makes sense from an equal rights perspective though I disagree with it) is that if a man has no input whatsoever into whether a woman has an abortion or not, then he should have no legal obligation to help care for a child that he might not want.

In short, by making a "woman's right to choose" the absolute, overriding "right" in this argument and following that right with one to force the father to support his child, then you are making the "womans right to choose" completely override EVERY right a man has.

The man does have "input." It's called "his sperm."

 

[Knight Templar]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

I think abortion is semi-relevant to the discussion because some people seem to think if a woman does not have an abortion she should be willing to raise the child without support from the father.

This overlooks the fact that child support is a child rights issue that doesn't exist until the child is born and shouldn't be influenced by the woman's rights over her own body that exists before birth (generally in most cases those woman's rights issues are resolved several months before the birth of a child) .

The reasoning (which makes sense from an equal rights perspective though I disagree with it) is that if a man has no input whatsoever into whether a woman has an abortion or not, then he should have no legal obligation to help care for a child that he might not want.

In short, by making a "woman's right to choose" the absolute, overriding "right" in this argument and following that right with one to force the father to support his child, then you are making the "womans right to choose" completely override EVERY right a man has.

The man does have "input." It's called "his sperm."

Why is the same argument not made about a womans choices being from when she spreads her legs?

You can't have it both ways. Either man and womans right to makes choices begins and ends at having sex or neither one have that right.

You can't say "a mans choice is when he has sex with a woman" and then say a "woman has a choice throughout her pregnancy".

You are putting the rights of the woman above that of the man.

 

[Kestra]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

The reasoning (which makes sense from an equal rights perspective though I disagree with it) is that if a man has no input whatsoever into whether a woman has an abortion or not, then he should have no legal obligation to help care for a child that he might not want.

In short, by making a "woman's right to choose" the absolute, overriding "right" in this argument and following that right with one to force the father to support his child, then you are making the "womans right to choose" completely override EVERY right a man has.

The man does have "input." It's called "his sperm."

Why is the same argument not made about a womans choices being from when she spreads her legs?

You can't have it both ways. Either man and womans right to makes choices begins and ends at having sex or neither one have that right.

You can't say "a mans choice is when he has sex with a woman" and then say a "woman has a choice throughout her pregnancy".

You are putting the rights of the woman above that of the man.

You can absolutely say that. Biology has made it so it's not going to always be fair. It's unfortunate, but acceptable.

 

[Miss Chicken]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

You are putting the rights of the woman above that of the man.

No, you not.

You are putting a child's rights for support above that of his/hers parents to do what they want with their money. This is not a man vs woman issue.

The parents' behaviour before or at the time of conception, during pregnancy or after birth should not affect the child's right to be supported by both parents.

 

[Knight Templar]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

The man does have "input." It's called "his sperm."

Why is the same argument not made about a womans choices being from when she spreads her legs?

You can't have it both ways. Either man and womans right to makes choices begins and ends at having sex or neither one have that right.

You can't say "a mans choice is when he has sex with a woman" and then say a "woman has a choice throughout her pregnancy".

You are putting the rights of the woman above that of the man.

You can absolutely say that. Biology has made it so it's not going to always be fair. It's unfortunate, but acceptable.

Fine.

The biology makes life "not fair". I never cared for fairness anyway.

But if it is always going to be "unfair" why tilt the scales in favor of the woman and not the man?

 

[cooleddie74]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

Seeing as the woman has to spend nine months carrying the child in utero and going through all the myriad medical issues and problems associated with three trimesters of pregnancy, I'd say the woman sort of deserves more of a say in the whole situation. A man will never understand what a woman goes through during pregnancy and childbirth. Our biological function in the act of reproduction ends with the depositing of sperm inside the woman, so I'm not entirely sure we even deserve to have more say than we do.

Give a man a fully functional uterus. Then I might change my mind.

 

[horatio83]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

Sweet, we moved from lynching to misogyny. I like this thread as it reveals the entire spectrum of right-wing nastiness.

 

[Knight Templar]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

Seeing as the woman has to spend nine months carrying the child in utero and going through all the myriad medical issues and problems associated with three trimesters of pregnancy, I'd say the woman sort of deserves more of a say in the whole situation. A man will never understand what a woman goes through during pregnancy and childbirth. Our biological function in the act of reproduction ends with the depositing of sperm inside the woman, so I'm not entirely sure we even deserve to have more say than we do.

Give a man a fully functional uterus. Then I might change my mind.

On the other hand, by ceding to the woman the "superior right" due to biological reasons, you are stripping a man of his control of his genetic heritage. Basically you are giving the woman the freedom to destroy a mans most basic right of passing his genes on to the next generation.

 

[Miss Chicken]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

He still has the right to do that. No one is sterilising him. he just has to find the right woman who wants him to be the father of her children.

 

[Knight Templar]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

He still has the right to do that. he just has to find the right woman who wants to be the father of his children.

So.

In order for a man to pass on his genetic heritage he must have the consent and basically a decades long committment from a woman.

In order for a woman to pass on her genetic heritage all she has to do is find a one time willing partner?

Once again, it is making the womans rights superior and above that of the man.