I thought the same thing.
Mad Men, Season 5. General Discussion Thread (spoilers welcome)
- Thread starter the G-man
- Start date
Yeah, there is real friendship between them. I think part of that is that they do not see each other as competitors. Don and Peggy have had a few close personal conversations. But they will always be a professional challenge to the other. Don and Roger have sometimes been drinking buddies but there is business conflict there too. Roger hired Don and Don ended up surpassing him.
Peggy and Joan can be friendly but they have had differences from day one. They have totally different goals.
Peggy and Joan can be friendly but they have had differences from day one. They have totally different goals.
Don and Roger have never been in competition. They have always had very different roles. It's Roger and Pete who have been in competition.
Not literally competition, but there's definitely been some tension between Don and Roger in regards to recognition of who gets the credit for the firm's success and competition about attention in general. At least there's some jealousy from Roger in regards to Don, and even resentment, or there was before his trip.
Yes, that was I what I trying to convey about Don and Roger. I guess competitor was not the best choice of word for some of these examples. Just that there are specific reasons why Don is not usually close and friendly with his coworkers.
That is one of the things that attracted me to the show early on. Its rare to see such realistic portrayal of work place relationships. Usually everyone is a big happy family or its an over the top melodrama of people always stabbing each other in the back.
That is one of the things that attracted me to the show early on. Its rare to see such realistic portrayal of work place relationships. Usually everyone is a big happy family or its an over the top melodrama of people always stabbing each other in the back.
What do you think has been the most misleading bit of the teasers this season?
I nominate Henry's, "He's got bigger secrets than this."
I nominate Henry's, "He's got bigger secrets than this."
"You are one of the good ones, aren't you?"
The recent conversation about Don and Joan's friendship is really leading where.... Where I have no frickening clue!
The recent conversation about Don and Joan's friendship is really leading where.... Where I have no frickening clue!
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Don could find himself questioning his confidence because now he knows it wasn't simply their pitch that got Jaguar. It came at a cost, but Joan can now have some influence.
I thought it before, but now I know without question that Pete is simply a pig. He always has been and likely always will be a snivelling little shit.
And Don looks genuinely shaken that Peggy is leaving. So am I.
I thought it before, but now I know without question that Pete is simply a pig. He always has been and likely always will be a snivelling little shit.
And Don looks genuinely shaken that Peggy is leaving. So am I.
There was a lot in this episode that took me by surprise!
Sometimes Don can do stupid stuff but this week shows why he is my all time favorite television character. John Hamm never fails to amaze me with his performance.
Pete is trash! While Don has his bad moments there is a lot of good under the surface. Pete will do anything to get his way.
Sometimes Don can do stupid stuff but this week shows why he is my all time favorite television character. John Hamm never fails to amaze me with his performance.
Pete is trash! While Don has his bad moments there is a lot of good under the surface. Pete will do anything to get his way.
And if Ted Chaough is still as fixated with one-upping Don Draper as he used to be, he'll begin to rub Peggy the wrong way pretty quickly, I'd bet.
That was very moving when Don kissed her hand goodbye. I knew Peggy would be leaving a few minutes in when she was looking at the lobsters through the window. The look on her face said it all. But there have been many clues to her leaving all season and last season. She didn't even let Don counteroffer.
I do see that they will be in direct competition next year. Peggy and Don will be competing for the same clients. I expect that they will draw on their knowledge of each others styles to one-up each other.
I wonder if five-percent-partner Joan is going to start acting like Roger...
Interesting facts: we now know how much Joan makes a year ($50,000 is more than four times she makes) and Peggy (hired for $19,000).
The theme of possession in this story was incredibly well executed and acted. This show is a masterpiece.
I do see that they will be in direct competition next year. Peggy and Don will be competing for the same clients. I expect that they will draw on their knowledge of each others styles to one-up each other.
I wonder if five-percent-partner Joan is going to start acting like Roger...
Interesting facts: we now know how much Joan makes a year ($50,000 is more than four times she makes) and Peggy (hired for $19,000).
The theme of possession in this story was incredibly well executed and acted. This show is a masterpiece.
And so will Roger, Bert, and high and mighty Lane. At least Pete doesn't make any bones about it. He's slimy, but he's not the one who professed to love Joan (Roger) or have "feelings" and the "utmost respect" for her like little puppy dog Lane who kissed her. Weakling. I imagine the Lane/Joan shippers went down like the Titanic. Good for her for demanding a piece of the partnership. Those fucking assholes. Pete's an honest asshole, and the rest of them pretend they're not assholes. That's even worse.
As far as Don being upset that Peggy is leaving, he has only himself to blame. I'll give him brownie points for not wanting Joan to do it, but he's still clueless about everything else in his personal and professional life. He'll drive Megan away as soon as she gets an acting part that takes her out of the city and it's his fault Peggy's leaving the company. Only when she said she's out the door does he get "emotional" and kiss her hand. Sorry, Don. Too late.
I hope Joan doesn't take up with Don. She deserves better. Damn I hate the men on this show some nights. Roger. Meh, what an entitled daddy's boy. Pete? You disappoint me. You show hints of a soul, then you backslide. Lane's a holier than thou tax dodger weakling. Joan needs to take the company in hand. Now that she's partner, she'll find out about the check Lane forged and she's PISSED. OFF. that they asked her to do this. I wonder what she'll do about it.
Did anybody else wonder if the elevator was going to be empty when Peggy stepped in?
It occurred to me, but then I didn't think it likely. She did pause while looking forward so she would have noticed if the car hadn't been there.
We have to remember that this isn't set today so some characters behaviour won't be like today. If a client even dared suggest a company to pimp one of its employees he'd be taking a real risk. And I think it unlikely (but perhaps not impossible) that a company representative today would even contemplate such a suggestion in order to close such a deal and not reject it on the spot. It also suggests the SCDP is still struggling financially and to establish themselves.
There are no real saints here, but rather degrees of moral ambiguity. Peggy represents the first generation of women working their way up into the upper echelons. Goes without saying she's going to have a bumpy ride even from those who admire and respect her because they're still accustomed to seeing things in a different perspective.
Lane's desperate. His whole life is on the brink of disaster. He would've probably been willing to whore himself out if it had done anything good.
No, Lane doesn't get a pass anymore than Pete, Roger, or Bert do. Your character is determined by what you do when you're desperate. Bottom line, he's willing to whore out Joan. So is Roger, Bert, and Pete. It's not like they were going to be out on the street if the account didn't come in. Lane created his own financial mess, so no. The situation wasn't thrust upon him.
Yeah, Lane was disgusting as well, but, let's be fair - don't let Joan off the hook either, she did not have to do it.
Anyway, I'm glad Peggy is getting out of this hellish company, she deserves better.
Anyway, I'm glad Peggy is getting out of this hellish company, she deserves better.
No, but she sure as hell would have borne the brunt of the looks and the frustration and the blame of the male execs--gosh, this company's financial future could have been secure if you'd only "taken one for the team," Joan. How much staff do we let go because we didn't get the boat loads of money from Jaguar? What's the matter with you, Joanie?
She's not as young as she used to be. She doesn't have Peggy's creative talent to move forward that way and she wouldn't have been taken as seriously because she is, in fact, so pretty and in her later 30s. That was older in 1966 than it is now. She's not sitting comfortably here with us in 2012 with all the protections for women in the workplace--protections that Republicans want to do away with because they "encumber" corporations. She's a single mother. Who's going to hire her for any well paying job with long term security to allow her to provide for little Kevin? To hire a nanny so that she doesn't have to put up with her mother's demeaning comments? The deck was stacked against her to "triumph" and she has no realistic expectations that things will change. No, she didn't have to say "yes" but I understand from her perspective growing up when she did and experiencing what she has, why she finally said yes. Joan thought that all the male partners (and it was all of them except Don) voted that she should do it. She was defeated already.
No, Lane doesn't get a pass even though he suggested she ask for the partnership. At least she can throw it in their faces now and she never has to put up with that again. I hope she finds out about the money and throws Lane out on his ass. At least she finally has some power. Ill begotten power, but power nonetheless.
And Don sure did a hell of a good job sidelining Peggy. As one astute reviewer noted, he showed professional growth but none personal. He told Megan she couldn't leave the city for her job if she got the part even though he, as she pointed out, leaves town regularly for his job. He threw the money in Peggy's face in front of her colleagues just because he wanted to give Ginsberg the credit for her idea and she objected. She had to sit outside while the male execs ate lobster provided by Jaguar, the account she's not allowed to sit on because the male execs don't want a woman on the account. Peggy is always going to be on the outside at SCDP, but she's young enough and creatively talented enough to do something. Bravo to her.
She's not as young as she used to be. She doesn't have Peggy's creative talent to move forward that way and she wouldn't have been taken as seriously because she is, in fact, so pretty and in her later 30s. That was older in 1966 than it is now. She's not sitting comfortably here with us in 2012 with all the protections for women in the workplace--protections that Republicans want to do away with because they "encumber" corporations. She's a single mother. Who's going to hire her for any well paying job with long term security to allow her to provide for little Kevin? To hire a nanny so that she doesn't have to put up with her mother's demeaning comments? The deck was stacked against her to "triumph" and she has no realistic expectations that things will change. No, she didn't have to say "yes" but I understand from her perspective growing up when she did and experiencing what she has, why she finally said yes. Joan thought that all the male partners (and it was all of them except Don) voted that she should do it. She was defeated already.
No, Lane doesn't get a pass even though he suggested she ask for the partnership. At least she can throw it in their faces now and she never has to put up with that again. I hope she finds out about the money and throws Lane out on his ass. At least she finally has some power. Ill begotten power, but power nonetheless.
And Don sure did a hell of a good job sidelining Peggy. As one astute reviewer noted, he showed professional growth but none personal. He told Megan she couldn't leave the city for her job if she got the part even though he, as she pointed out, leaves town regularly for his job. He threw the money in Peggy's face in front of her colleagues just because he wanted to give Ginsberg the credit for her idea and she objected. She had to sit outside while the male execs ate lobster provided by Jaguar, the account she's not allowed to sit on because the male execs don't want a woman on the account. Peggy is always going to be on the outside at SCDP, but she's young enough and creatively talented enough to do something. Bravo to her.
It’s easy for us to forget that Joan was taught her whole life to use her looks and body to get ahead. Look at some of the conversations she’s had with her mom this season, that demonstrate it was drilled into her long before she set foot in Sterling Cooper. In fact, in the first episode of the series, Joan told Peggy that sex was how to get ahead in the agency. And, sadly, when Joan has used her brains (such as the time she was doing Harry’s job better than Harry has) she didn’t get the credit. Conversely, including this time, exploiting her looks advances her career.
Dorian Thompson said:
[G-man starts to point out why this isn’t true and is just an Obama talking point, but then realizes no one here is going to change anyone’s mind on politics and instead suggests...]
Come on, now, why politicize a thread about a show we all enjoy and derail what tends to be one of the best discussions on the board? Nothing’s more boring that a person who thinks they need to lecture others about politics or religion. At best, you’ll score a few points with the people here who already agree with you but more likely, you’ll just discredit yourself with the people who don’t.
Let’s be fair to Don. Leaving for a few days here and there is vastly different than leaving for three months’ straight. That’s a scary proposition for anyone in a marriage, male or female. Furthermore, Megan’s expectation that Don would just come up and visit her every weekend was pretty unrealistic and immature on her part as well. He has three kids from a previous marriage and, from what we’ve seen, the weekends are when he gets to see those kids. For someone who claims to love Don’s kids, Megan seemed pretty darn eager to forget about them when it suited her acting dream.
As usual when Don and Megan fight neither looks very good. Both have understandable desires and fears and neither is necessarily wrong about what they want. Unfortunately, both tend to quickly marginalize the other’s position, back the other into a corner and say childish, inflammatory and/or accusatory things when they think they aren’t getting their way.
Peggy getting out of SCDP might not be much of an improvement. From what we’ve seen in the show, and from what I’ve read about actual ad agencies in the 1960s, most of them were pretty toxic, especially for women.
As Peggy said to Freddy about auto execs, “they’re all a bunch of creeps.”
Peggy’s leaving, and Don’s reaction, seems consistent with what I was saying about their relationship the other day. It’s more paternal than anything. Peggy’s leaving SCDP to advance her career and Don’s conflicted feelings about that was reminiscent of a grown child telling her father she’s “leaving the nest.”
Other thoughts:
· Pete’s slimy proposition to Joan was wonderfully acted. His stilted dialogue and stammering was exactly how someone-even a little pig-would act. Brilliant work on Vincent Kartheiser’s part. He just keeps getting better and better.
· Don’s revulsion at pimping out Joan, especially after what we saw between them in the bar previously, made a lot of sense. As touched on before, his relationship with Joan seems very brother-sisterish when they let their guard down. He has deep-seated issues with his mother having been a prostitute. There was no way that wasn’t going to bother him more than it did the rest of the partners.
· (Moreover, how ironic was it that Herb made the “Sultan of Araby” reference to Joan after she and Don had that conversation about all the flowers she used to get?)
· Don’s speech to the Jag people: Good lord, but Hamm must play Batman in the next film.
· “Five seconds is not long enough to sit down.” Funniest line of the night and not said by Roger!
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Point taken, but it isn't an "Obama talking point." The equal pay act in Wisconsin has been repealed. Last I heard, it wasn't a Democratic governor and state senate.
Don has left for "more than a few days" with Betty. He ran off for several weeks to California. He was completely in the wrong with Megan. Don has some compassion for Joan, but he can't fully embrace treating women with respect. The whole episode was about respect or lack thereof.
Don has left for "more than a few days" with Betty. He ran off for several weeks to California. He was completely in the wrong with Megan. Don has some compassion for Joan, but he can't fully embrace treating women with respect. The whole episode was about respect or lack thereof.