When Did "Tips" (Gratuities) Become So High?

[Ian Keldon]

I'm against the sense of entitlement implied towards a job that amounts to carry stuff between point a and point b.

Shows what you know...waitstaffing is not just "carrying stuff from point a to b".

Waitstaffing requires the ability to remember accurately detailed lists and correctly associate that information with the customers involved. (a party of 4 can easily result in a tray with 12 items or more on it, each of which must be given to the correct customer), the ability to quickly process financial transactions (if/when required to run the register), and a fine attention to detail (for keeping the table clean between customers, condiment containers stocked, etc).

Physically the job requires good upper body strength, reflexes, and a high endurance (carrying heavy trays through crowded spaces without spilling/dropping anything repeatedly for hours). And when you're not serving tables, you're restocking the condiments, cleaning tables, loading the dishwasher, sometimes assisting in the kitchen with ingredient prep, etc.

And above all you are required to be polite and courteous to all customers all the time (and will get ripped a new one if you aren't), regardless of how swine-ish they behave.

Even if all that were not the case, I find it sickening that you feel that some workers are not deserving of a minimum standard of decent treatment based on your assessment of what their job entails.

 

[Gov Kodos]

Dynamite, you can write and remember a list coupled with carrying stuff. Rocket science, that is. You are right, I don't care about your sense of entitlement.

 

[Ian Keldon]

might wanna go easy on using the word bullshit when you reveal your lack of basic economic knowledge.

Translation: reality isn't what your libertarian-capitalist textbook taught you it is and you can't defend your position so you accuse me of not knowing whereof I speak.

"Cheap out on wages" is only possible is restaurants had some form of market power in the labour market

They don't just have "some form" of power, they have ALL the power. They have the jobs, and plenty of desperate people willing to be used and abused for a fraction of minimum wage because it beats no job at all for them.

(if a waiter has a productivity of $10 and his chef pay him merely $8 another restaurant has an incentive to pay him a bit more, thus driving up the wages to productivity).

Horsecrap! They all have the same incentive to cheap out on wages, and benefit from the same basic conditions that make it possible in the real world.

But if you still think that your employer exploits you you might wanna do what the working class has done back in the days, form a union, raise your fist and stands united against (perceived) injustice.

So not being paid enough to make a living is a "perceived" injustice?

Let me tell you what happens to people who try what you suggest. 1) they get fired in short order for some BS reason cooked up by the manager 2) word quickly gets around to all the other local employers that the person is a "troublemaker" and they can't get work elsewhere.

Same thing happens to retail sales employees (such as Wal-Mart's serfs).

Certainly beats whining.

Translation: any complaint by a working class person is automatically dismissed as illegitimate so that you don't have to address the reality of their situation.

If expecting high tips does not make you work hard it is not surprising that you often receive no tips.

Apparently, sunshine, you didn't bother to read the rest of the post. The entire staff, from kitchen to "floor" (the servers) worked their butts off for those cretins, giving them the best possible service under the circumstances, and we got NOTHING for that effort.

Seriously, why do you not fight for another system with higher wages and smaller tips if you do not like the "customer can cheat" problem of the tipping system? For example on this side of the big pond tips are far smaller.

People have tried. I explain what happens when they do above.

Dynamite, you can write and remember a list coupled with carrying stuff. Rocket science, that is. You are right, I don't care about your sense of entitlement.

1) Try doing it. I dare you.

2) Let me guess, if it were up to you there'd be no minimum wage to begin with, would there? Doesn't matter if the people who are doing work for you starve, just so you get ever cheaper goods and services, right?

The French knew how to deal with parasites like your kind.

 

[thestrangequark]

^Why invalidate your argument on the outset by blatantly admitting it's a strawman?

 

[beamMe]

Dynamite, you can write and remember a list coupled with carrying stuff. Rocket science, that is. You are right, I don't care about your sense of entitlement.

Is it fun for you to look down your nose on people whose job it is to serve you food?

 

[horatio83]

might wanna go easy on using the word bullshit when you reveal your lack of basic economic knowledge.

Translation: reality isn't what your libertarian-capitalist textbook taught you it is and you can't defend your position so you accuse me of not knowing whereof I speak.

I do not have to accuse you of anything, it is blatantly obvious that you do ignore econ 101. By the way, I am not a libertarian but a social democrat. You know, the kinda of stuff the do in Scandinavia like universal health care, free education, high unemployment insurance and so on ... but also free labour markets.

I understand that you are pissed off that your job is shitty but whining about it, ignoring basic economics and pretending that you are exploited is just stupid. Furthermore pretending your fellow progressives are wicked libertarians just because they dare to point out that restaurant owners are not our corporate overlords and suggest that stuff like negative income taxes or basic income to help the working poor is a better solution than tipping poor waiters is pathetic and intellectually lazy.

I'm against the sense of entitlement implied towards a job that amounts to carry stuff between point a and point b.

Shows what you know...waitstaffing is not just "carrying stuff from point a to b".

Yeah, that's why you need years of training to become a waiter.
I am all for proletarian pride but pretending that simple jobs cannot be performed by everybody is pretty embarrassing.
You will probably go ape-shit again and accuse me of being a right-winger but it is not my job to sustain your illusions.

Let me tell you what happens to people who try what you suggest. 1) they get fired in short order for some BS reason cooked up by the manager 2) word quickly gets around to all the other local employers that the person is a "troublemaker" and they can't get work elsewhere.

Back in the days guys like the Wobblies got killed. I used the word fight for a reason but alas, the contemporary pussy-left has forgotten that you gotta pay a price if you wanna grab power. Yet I am optimistic that movements like Occupy are the first step to get away from identity politics, political correctness and other abominations of the New Left and back towards Old Lefti-ish economic struggle.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

If a server is entitled to a minimum amount of money for the work they do, regardless of its quality, then they should be getting paid a flat rate at or above the (standard) minimum wage.

If tipping is meant to be a reflection of the quality of service provided, then always giving a set minimum is absurd. Either a tip is an incentive or it's not, but it can't be both an incentive and an entitlement.

My standard tip is 15% for "standard" service, meaning the server was reasonably attentive and I found nothing to fault in their service. Obviously, if a cook screws up, I'm not punishing my server for that. If service is bad, I will pay less, and am not above leaving loose change as a tip just so they know I didn't forget. (Incidentally, whenever I do that I also make a point to tell the manager about the poor service and I don't go back to that place.) If service is superior there is really no upper limit on my tip. There was one place I liked to eat in Indiana because it always had superb service--the wait staff were universally friendly, helpful, knowledgeable, and attentive. It was a casual dining burger joint but it had truly exceptional service, and more than once I left 50% or higher tips, and always gaving glowing reviews to the manager when he came by.

Bottom line: you get 15% if you do the bare minimum, less if you don't even manage that, and potentially much more if you provide great service.

I think that's pretty fair. I should also note that I include the tax as part of my tip calculation, which is apparently not how it's normally done, so I guess I am leaving a slightly higher tip already (since tax is usually 7%.)

When I was in Europe--where people are paid a decent wage to begin with--I only ever received great service, and I still tipped quite well even though I didn't have to.

I don't think it's "being an asshole" to adjust my tip based on whether my server was poor, adequate, or excellent. I sure as shit am not going to pay 20% to someone who gives me lousy service.

 

[iguana_tonante]

I suppose I'll look like a silly foreigner (when in fact, I am a silly foreigner), but I need to ask: what is the point about "refilling my glass"? For context, here in Italy when you order a beverage, you either get a glass full of it (beer, soda, coffee), or you get a full bottle and a empty glass (wine, water). If you want more, you need to order (and then pay) anther one.

So in my mind, "refilling my glass" means that you are too lazy to lift your bottle to fill your glass and need a waiter to do it for you.

Another interpretation is that waiters go around the tables with a ton of bottles, filling random customers' glasses with their beverages of choice.

Either way, it sounds quite silly.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

I suppose I'll look like a silly foreigner (when in fact, I am a silly foreigner), but I need to ask: what is the point about "refilling my glass"? For context, here in Italy when you order a beverage, you either get a glass full of it (beer, soda, coffee), or you get a full bottle and a empty glass (wine, water). If you want more, you need to order (and then pay) anther one.

So in my mind, "refilling my glass" means that you are too lazy to lift your bottle to fill your glass and need a waiter to do it for you.

Another interpretation is that waiters go around the tables with a ton of bottles, filling random customers' glasses with their beverages of choice.

Either way, it sounds quite silly.

I had to explain this to Emilia the other day, too.

Here, most people drink soda (soft drinks) with their meals, so if you drink what's in your glass your server has to take it back and fill it up again (some places just bring you another glass, or refill you from a pitcher.) But generally speaking, you can't get your own refill at a casual dining restaurant.

It is customary for refills of soda, tea, or coffee to be free.

 

[iguana_tonante]

I had to explain this to Emilia the other day, too.

I am not surprised. It looks really alien for us.

Here, most people drink soda (soft drinks) with their meals, so if you drink what's in your glass your server has to take it back and fill it up again (some places just bring you another glass, or refill you from a pitcher.) But generally speaking, you can't get your own refill at a casual dining restaurant.

It is customary for refills of soda, tea, or coffee to be free.

It seems like a vastly inefficient method, purposefully designed to make it difficult for waiters and unsatisfactory for customers.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The only time I didn't leave a tip was when the service was incredibly bad. My girlfriend and I stopped intp a Denny's one night, the place wasn't all that busy. In fact,I'd say the staff out numbered the customers. Still it took forever to get our order and when we got it the order was wrong. The waitress pretty much ignored us the entire time we were there. Later Denny's was hit with a discrimination lawsuit. My girlfriend and I were a mixed race couple, so that made me wonder if that was a factor in the poor service we received.

 

[RoJoHen]

Seriously, why do you not fight for another system with higher wages and smaller tips if you do not like the "customer can cheat" problem of the tipping system? For example on this side of the big pond tips are far smaller.

Because, luckily, the douchebag tippers are the minority. I could go on and on about all the average-to-great tippers out there. I could tell you about the time I waited on a band and got a $500 tip from them for delivering 13 shots of Jameson to their hotel room. But isn't it so much more fun to bitch about the shitty customers?

The truth is, if server wages increased and tips diminished, servers would probably end up making significantly less money. The good servers would leave the industry because they're not making good money anymore, and we'd be stuck with a world full of mediocre service. We don't want the system to change.

 

[RoJoHen]

Shows what you know...waitstaffing is not just "carrying stuff from point a to b".

Yeah, that's why you need years of training to become a waiter.
I am all for proletarian pride but pretending that simple jobs cannot be performed by everybody is pretty embarrassing.
You will probably go ape-shit again and accuse me of being a right-winger but it is not my job to sustain your illusions.

Have you ever actually worked in a restaurant? Believe me, there are a lot of people that can't wait tables. It involves a ridiculous amount of multi-tasking that a lot of people simply can't handle. It's not that any particularly aspect of the job is difficult; it's that your server is probably responsible for a hell of a lot more than you're seeing them do, and it can be really easy for a bad server to get overwhelmed.

 

[Ian Keldon]

^Why invalidate your argument on the outset by blatantly admitting it's a strawman?

I was there when it happened. No strawman involved.

 

[Kestra]

I have always tipped well and always will, but reading these threads makes me not want to.

Same.

 

[RoJoHen]

I just love how worked up people get about the subject on both sides of the argument.

 

[Ian Keldon]

Dynamite, you can write and remember a list coupled with carrying stuff. Rocket science, that is. You are right, I don't care about your sense of entitlement.

Is it fun for you to look down your nose on people whose job it is to serve you food?

And then not pay them for their efforts.

might wanna go easy on using the word bullshit when you reveal your lack of basic economic knowledge.

Translation: reality isn't what your libertarian-capitalist textbook taught you it is and you can't defend your position so you accuse me of not knowing whereof I speak.

I do not have to accuse you of anything, it is blatantly obvious that you do ignore econ 101.

It's called "externalizing", horatio...you should know that term. Tip labor pushes most of the wage cost off of the business and onto to employee who is no longer guaranteed to be suitably paid for his labor, but rather left to the whims of the customer.

I understand that you are pissed off that your job is shitty

Was shitty. Haven't been at that job for many years, but know people who have and still do that kind of work. It hasn't changed.

but whining about it, ignoring basic economics and pretending that you are exploited is just stupid

Calling an explotative circumstance exactly that is not "whining"

And yes, if you are not being paid enough money for your labor to live on, or even the minimum required for all other laborers, you are being exploited. You go without to subsidize the profits of the resteraunt, and the meals of the patrons.

Furthermore pretending your fellow progressives are wicked libertarians just because they dare to point out that restaurant owners are not our corporate overlords and suggest that stuff like negative income taxes or basic income to help the working poor is a better solution than tipping poor waiters is pathetic and intellectually lazy.

No it isn't. Tip labor is not just labor, as it is dependent on the subjective evaluation of the consumer (who may be an abusive a** like some of the people who have been posting earlier) as to the value of the labor.

Minimum wage laws were passed for a reason, then resteraunteurs got themselves a nice, tidy little exception so they could continue to underpay the waitstaff.

I am all for proletarian pride but pretending that simple jobs cannot be performed by everybody is pretty embarrassing.
You will probably go ape-shit again and accuse me of being a right-winger but it is not my job to sustain your illusions.

Stop acting like one then.

 

[Ian Keldon]

If a server is entitled to a minimum amount of money for the work they do, regardless of its quality, then they should be getting paid a flat rate at or above the (standard) minimum wage.

That was my point earlier. Tips should be a "bonus" for exceptional service, not a way for the resteraunt to save money on payroll by otherwise underpaying the waitstaff.

 

[RoJoHen]

A lot of this will also depend on your area and the particular establishment where you work. I, for one, have always loved being a tipped employee.

 

[Kestra]

I just love how worked up people get about the subject on both sides of the argument.

It's something that has pretty much always pissed me off. I hate tips in general. I'd rather know what I'm required to pay and then be able to be generous on my own terms. Which is why I also get irritated when people make it about being cheap. I don't go out unless I can spend money. When I am with friends, I will often pay the entire bill including the tip. I have no problem leaving a 50% tip for people who are awesome.

I just hate this sense of obligation in making up for crummy wages in a job that someone else chose, the sense of entitlement I see or read when I'm generally getting not so great service, and then seeing people bitch about the low tippers. What, do I have to make up their amount? Screw that.

Man, people just piss me off sometimes.

Also iguana, I hate the drink refill thing. They often come and take away your drink and give you a new one before the first one is entirely done, and I like flat, watered down pop so they take away the most delicious part.