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Prime Directive, poorly written?

Why? I could see the absolute necessity of terminating every intelligent culture we ever come across, in order to eliminate competition and possible deadly future threat. But everything else would be sort of optional, dependent on the whimsies of the politics and morals of the day.

For the Federation, the PD may serve the practical purpose of keeping the primitive cultures diverse by depriving them of the chance of interaction and sharing of ideas till the very last - so that when they finally are assimilated, they bring maximally innovative ideas to the mix and help fight intellectual stagnation within the UFP. The same goes for the Borg, of course. But that all happens in the Star Trek environment where all cultures are basically humanoid and near-identical to Earth's, and diversity needs to be fostered, fertilized, whatever. Most scenarios of galactic exploration and expansion would have different starting points, and "keeping one's distance" would be an academic exercise only: the cultures encountered would be on the pre-stone age level, or significantly more advanced than we are, or biologically too different to interact with ours in any meaningful way.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Why? I could see the absolute necessity of terminating every intelligent culture we ever come across, in order to eliminate competition and possible deadly future threat. But everything else would be sort of optional, dependent on the whimsies of the politics and morals of the day.

For the Federation, the PD may serve the practical purpose of keeping the primitive cultures diverse by depriving them of the chance of interaction and sharing of ideas till the very last - so that when they finally are assimilated, they bring maximally innovative ideas to the mix and help fight intellectual stagnation within the UFP. The same goes for the Borg, of course. But that all happens in the Star Trek environment where all cultures are basically humanoid and near-identical to Earth's, and diversity needs to be fostered, fertilized, whatever. Most scenarios of galactic exploration and expansion would have different starting points, and "keeping one's distance" would be an academic exercise only: the cultures encountered would be on the pre-stone age level, or significantly more advanced than we are, or biologically too different to interact with ours in any meaningful way.

Timo Saloniemi

Maybe they would be biologically very different, and maybe they would not. We simply don't KNOW.

As for the various technological levels, that's partly what I was saying and what the PD seems to address. Pre-warp, pre-knowledge-of-extraplanetary life = hands off. Knowledge of such life but still pre-warp is sort of a gray area as discussed above. Warp using, whether or not they know yet about other civilizations = free to interact.

"Warp" for this purpose just means FTL, whether they use the same basic technology or not.
 
I think the problem with the PD is as the franchise went on, there were fewer and fewer episodes that presented it in a positive light. Who Watches the watchers and Patterns of Force were good episodes for showcasing why the PD was important.

By the time we got to Voyager and Enterprise, Archer and Janeway were willing to let entire civilizations die and say that is the moral thing to do. An episode like Dear Doctor made the concept of the PD just seem callous and against natural human compassion.

Agreed.

Secondly, the arrival of the British decimated the indigenous cultures, across the planet- they will never be what they were. Some of the culture remains, yes, but there is no such thing as benign interference- the moment two cultures meet, both will be changed, forever.

While I completely agree with you that the arrival of the British led to the decimation of indigenous cultures, you take your argument too far in claiming that there is no such thing as "benign interference." NATO, for instance, interfered in what was then Yugoslavia to stop the Serbs from committing genocide against the ethnic Albanian Kosovars in the late 1990s; that was benign. Had anyone bothered to interfere in the genocide of the Hutus by the Tutsis, that would have been benign.

Indeed, Europe is a product of benign interference. Throughout the Middle Ages, Europe was a primitive backwater peninsula of Asia. Then they had contact with more advanced cultures from the Middle East and Asia, gaining access to things like gunpowder, advanced mathematics, etc. This led to beneficial technological advancements for Europe.

It's not that any and all contact between a more technologically advanced and a less technologically advanced culture will inherently be destructive. Such exchanges are only destructive if the more powerful culture deliberately chooses to attempt to dominate the less-powerful culture, or if it does not take steps necessary to make sure it is not inadvertently harming or dominating them.

Ultimately, that's why the Federation adopted the Prime Directive and bans all contact with pre-warp cultures: It doesn't yet trust itself not to even inadvertently dominate or harm less-powerful cultures. Which is really the best thing you can say about the Federation -- it is a culture that's far more aware and far more self-critical than most are today.

(Having said that, the more cynical part of me can't help but remark that the PD has the added benefit of helping to maintain the Federation's position of relative technological superiority over all those other cultures out there.)

So, instead of allowing humans to invent the warp drive, the Vulcans should have just come down and GIVEN it to us? Is that benign interference? Should they then have said: "Y'know, this emotions thing you got going on, you know what's better than that? Logic!"

Well, let's not sit here and try to pretend that Vulcan circa 2063-2154 was some kind of model for how a powerful culture should interact with a less-powerful culture. It is true that certain concepts that later formed the core of the Prime Directive (and its Federation civilian government counterpart, the Federation Charter's prohibition on interference with the internal affairs of foreign cultures) came from the Vulcans, such as the refusal to hand over advanced technology.

But by the same token, Vulcan pre-2154 was a prime example of a neo-imperialist state. We know that the Vulcan Ambassador was constantly attempting to use his strong informal influence on the United Earth government to interfere with Earth's space exploration programs, attempting to stifle Earth's technological and foreign relations development. We know that Vulcan had a habit of propping up governments they could control on worlds who had resources they needed, like Coridan, even when those worlds faced domestic insurgencies. We know that Vulcans weren't above acts of aggression against the Andorians, such as seizing their settlements on Weytahn, or launching invasions based on false evidence of WMDs, nor were they above illegally spying on the Andorians.

In short: The Vulcan of most of the late 21st and early-to-mid 22nd Centuries was very clearly a neo-imperialist state. It used its wealth and power to dominate more technologically primitive worlds like Earth, keeping their governments under Vulcan's thumb; it propped up illegitimate governments like Coridan's in the same way the United States does the Saudis, the Bahrainis, or that it did the Hosni Mubarak regime; it engage in acts of aggression against its neighbors.

22nd Century Vulcan is a great example of another system of imperialism the Prime Directive is meant to protect against.

Would the PD apply to the Cardassians and Klingons? They are the technological equals of the Federation.

"Redemption" made it clear that the Prime Directive contains provisions prohibiting Starfleet from interfering in the internal affairs of foreign cultures with comparable levels of technological sophistication. "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges" also established that a similar provision exists in the Federation Charter, meaning that it's both constitutional law and a Starfleet general order.

Archer is not subject to the PD, which hasn't been written yet, though he expresses the desire for such a principle. While it may seem callous to deny the cure for the disease to the Valakians, what about the Menk, the other species that is evolving to be the dominant in that culture and has natural immunity to it?

"Dear Doctor" was just nonsense, not the least because the writers completely do not understand how evolution works. The idea that the Menk were somehow "destined" to evolve to become the dominant race is just ridiculous--there's no such thing as being "destined" to evolve a certain way. Evolution is not pre-programmed; it's the result of random mutations that either prove beneficial or harmful to the organism that develops it, and which are then either passed on or weeded out of the gene pool respectively.

Meanwhile, the Valakians have every right to live. The idea that United Earth should withhold medical assistance out of some ridiculous notion that the Valakians are "supposed" to die and the Menk "supposed" to reign supreme is just nonsense. United Earth has every moral obligation to provide humanitarian assistance to the Valakians; it is not responsible for whatever conflicts exist or come to exist between the Valakians and the Menk later on. To make a comparison, the West has every moral obligation to provide humanitarian assistance to, say, starving Somalis; this does not make the West responsible for conflicts that occur between the Somalis and other nations. (Other Western policies might make the West partially responsible, but not providing humanitarian assistance.)

Either choice seems bad in some ways - let an entire species die out from a disease of genetic decay, or deny another species their chance to become the dominant (and eventually only sentient) species on their planet.

Why is the latter a good thing? Why is it bad to deny a culture (the Menk) a chance to dominate another culture? Shouldn't United Earth's goal be to foster equality and peaceful coexistence between the Menk and the Valakians?

Fortunately, the reference book Star Trek: Star Charts -- which so far as I know is the only Star Trek product to in any way follow up on the Menk and Valakians -- establishes that the Valakians survived, and that the Menk achieved social equality with them. Both founded a new state known as the Commonwealth of Menk and Valkis, which itself became a Federation Member later on. So happy endings for this one, if we want to accept a bit of non-canonical work.
 
I've wanted to see a follow-up story where the Valakians discover what Archer and Phlox did and attempt to have them extradited for their crimes. As Sci put it, "dear doctor" only presents a "dilemma" if you have no conception of ethics or how evolution works.
 
I've wanted to see a follow-up story where the Valakians discover what Archer and Phlox did and attempt to have them extradited for their crimes. As Sci put it, "dear doctor" only presents a "dilemma" if you have no conception of ethics or how evolution works.
Not sure it had so much to do with future Evolution, as it did to a lack of repression. The Menk were already as smart as they needed to be, but, were they repressed and held down by the Valakians. The Valakians dying out, would end the repression of the Menk, so they could live up to their potential
 
I've wanted to see a follow-up story where the Valakians discover what Archer and Phlox did and attempt to have them extradited for their crimes. As Sci put it, "dear doctor" only presents a "dilemma" if you have no conception of ethics or how evolution works.
Not sure it had so much to do with future Evolution, as it did to a lack of repression. The Menk were already as smart as they needed to be, but, were they repressed and held down by the Valakians. The Valakians dying out, would end the repression of the Menk, so they could live up to their potential


The United States. The Civil Rights Movement. The 1960s.
 
I've wanted to see a follow-up story where the Valakians discover what Archer and Phlox did and attempt to have them extradited for their crimes. As Sci put it, "dear doctor" only presents a "dilemma" if you have no conception of ethics or how evolution works.
Not sure it had so much to do with future Evolution, as it did to a lack of repression. The Menk were already as smart as they needed to be, but, were they repressed and held down by the Valakians. The Valakians dying out, would end the repression of the Menk, so they could live up to their potential

Which is an excellent argument for a building an episode over the dilemma of whether United Earth should attempt to influence the Valakians into accepting the Menk as their equals, or should simply accept that this is an internal conflict that United Earth should stay out of.

But the idea that United Earth should refuse medical assistance to a vast population dying of plague? That's genocidal manslaughter. It's the equivalent of arguing that if white Americans in the 1830s were dying of some disease only they could get, no one should help them because they were oppressing and enslaving blacks.
 
I've wanted to see a follow-up story where the Valakians discover what Archer and Phlox did and attempt to have them extradited for their crimes. As Sci put it, "dear doctor" only presents a "dilemma" if you have no conception of ethics or how evolution works.
Not sure it had so much to do with future Evolution, as it did to a lack of repression. The Menk were already as smart as they needed to be, but, were they repressed and held down by the Valakians. The Valakians dying out, would end the repression of the Menk, so they could live up to their potential

Which is an excellent argument for a building an episode over the dilemma of whether United Earth should attempt to influence the Valakians into accepting the Menk as their equals, or should simply accept that this is an internal conflict that United Earth should stay out of.

But the idea that United Earth should refuse medical assistance to a vast population dying of plague? That's genocidal manslaughter. It's the equivalent of arguing that if white Americans in the 1830s were dying of some disease only they could get, no one should help them because they were oppressing and enslaving blacks.
Why should you interfere with their Evolution and become complicit in their exploitation? For all we know, there may be a reason that Evolution decided to protect the Menk, maybe an environmental change is coming that the Valakians wouldn't survive, but, the Menk would, and by saving the Valakians, and thereby keeping the Menk repressed, so both species end up dying out, because the Menk were prevented from rising up to adapt to that environmental change
 
Not sure it had so much to do with future Evolution, as it did to a lack of repression. The Menk were already as smart as they needed to be, but, were they repressed and held down by the Valakians. The Valakians dying out, would end the repression of the Menk, so they could live up to their potential

Which is an excellent argument for a building an episode over the dilemma of whether United Earth should attempt to influence the Valakians into accepting the Menk as their equals, or should simply accept that this is an internal conflict that United Earth should stay out of.

But the idea that United Earth should refuse medical assistance to a vast population dying of plague? That's genocidal manslaughter. It's the equivalent of arguing that if white Americans in the 1830s were dying of some disease only they could get, no one should help them because they were oppressing and enslaving blacks.

Why should you interfere with their Evolution

That's a meaningless phrase. There's no such thing as "interfering in evolution," because evolution doesn't have some kind of "pure route" that it's "supposed" to follow. Evolution just happens; there's no "supposed to be."

and become complicit in their exploitation?
Saving hundreds of millions of people from death does not make you complicit in their subsequent choices. It means you saved hundreds of millions of people.

Why should you save them? Because if you don't, when you have the capacity, that means you're guilty of genocidal manslaughter. You have an obligation to help races survive.

For all we know, there may be a reason that Evolution decided to protect the Menk,
.... dude, "evolution" doesn't "decide" anything. There's no "reason" for it. Evolution is just random mutations that are either helpful or not helpful, and thus are either passed on or not passed on. That's all.

maybe an environmental change is coming that the Valakians wouldn't survive, but, the Menk would,
Random mutations would have no way of knowing this. "Evolution" isn't some grand destiny controlling fate. It's not a god. It's a random process of mutation, that's all.

and by saving the Valakians, and thereby keeping the Menk repressed,
You do not keep the Menk repressed if you refuse to allow an entire species to die. The Valakians keep the Menk repressed if they chose to perpetuate their systems of oppression.

ETA: And they're more likely to stop oppressing the Menk if they see the positive example United Earth has set for them by helping them, and understand that that same humanitarian impulse which saved their people is inextricably linked to the egalitarian and libertarian impulses that demand they accept the Menk as their equals. End edit.

so both species end up dying out, because the Menk were prevented from rising up to adapt to that environmental change
Yes, and what if it is the will of the Invisible Pink Elephant that the Valakians be saved so that they and the Menk can build a shrine to her which can double as an asteroid repeller, thereby saving everyone?

Seriously, you're talking about a hypothetical so convoluted that it's absurd. Yes, bad things could maybe possibly hypothetically happen in the future. That's true of every decision you make; it's not a valid reason to stand by and allow an entire species to die. That's nothing more than genocide by inaction.
 
Evolution does follow a course, it follows the environment. Species adapt (or die off) based upon environmental changes. If you live in the water and soemthing poisons that water, you either adapt to live in that poisoned water, you die, or you adapt to living outside that water. If you live in 30 degree temperatures, and something happens to the environment that raises the temperature to 50 degrees, you either adapt to that new temperature or you die (or you find a way to artificially create that 30 degree temperature), etc.
 
Evolution does follow a course, it follows the environment.

Not a pre-determined one. The "course" that develops develops out of random mutations. If a mutation allows an organism to survive and reproduce, then it gets passed on; if it does not, then it is not passed on. The only sense in which evolution follows a "course" is in retrospect, as a metaphor.
 
Evolution does follow a course, it follows the environment. Species adapt (or die off) based upon environmental changes. If you live in the water and soemthing poisons that water, you either adapt to live in that poisoned water, you die, or you adapt to living outside that water. If you live in 30 degree temperatures, and something happens to the environment that raises the temperature to 50 degrees, you either adapt to that new temperature or you die (or you find a way to artificially create that 30 degree temperature), etc.


you're just stating scientific facts and concluding that there's a "course" behind them. It's like saying that gravity has a "course" to follow because if I jump off a building gravity will "pull" me down.

you're anthropomorphizing nature and evolution to a ridiculous extent. Evolution is not intelligent or alive and doesn't care whether it is "interfered" with or not.
 
"Redemption" made it clear that the Prime Directive contains provisions prohibiting Starfleet from interfering in the internal affairs of foreign cultures with comparable levels of technological sophistication. "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges" also established that a similar provision exists in the Federation Charter, meaning that it's both constitutional law and a Starfleet general order.

Actually if a warp capable civilization poses enough of a direct threat to the Federation, the Federation seems to have no problem interfering with that civilization.

When the Cardassians were spreading false rumors that they were building biological weapons, the Federation sent Crusher, Worf and Picard to destroy that weapons program. The Federation also had no problem interfering with the internal affairs of the Borg and the Dominion.
 
"Redemption" made it clear that the Prime Directive contains provisions prohibiting Starfleet from interfering in the internal affairs of foreign cultures with comparable levels of technological sophistication. "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges" also established that a similar provision exists in the Federation Charter, meaning that it's both constitutional law and a Starfleet general order.

Actually if a warp capable civilization poses enough of a direct threat to the Federation, the Federation seems to have no problem interfering with that civilization.

When the Cardassians were spreading false rumors that they were building biological weapons, the Federation sent Crusher, Worf and Picard to destroy that weapons program. The Federation also had no problem interfering with the internal affairs of the Borg and the Dominion.

but those were all spacefaring civilizations that had contact with other worlds and warp drive capability. Again, if the PD is supposed to apply to THEM then the Federation has no business being involved in galactic affairs at all. "Interference" would mean doing anything that involves contacting other civilizations. It'd be rigid xenophobia and isolationism, turning the PD from potentially "anti-imperialist" to just plain absurd.

which is why when they started applying it to groups like the Kazon and Hirogen it lost all coherence. Those are both spacefaring cultures that are already involved in the affairs of other worlds. The PD pre-Voyager wasn't meant to apply there, but they needed contrived dilemmas and dramas so...
 
"Redemption" made it clear that the Prime Directive contains provisions prohibiting Starfleet from interfering in the internal affairs of foreign cultures with comparable levels of technological sophistication. "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges" also established that a similar provision exists in the Federation Charter, meaning that it's both constitutional law and a Starfleet general order.

Actually if a warp capable civilization poses enough of a direct threat to the Federation, the Federation seems to have no problem interfering with that civilization.

If a foreign state poses a direct threat to the Federation, then they're not interfering with an internal affair, are they?
 
"Redemption" made it clear that the Prime Directive contains provisions prohibiting Starfleet from interfering in the internal affairs of foreign cultures with comparable levels of technological sophistication. "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges" also established that a similar provision exists in the Federation Charter, meaning that it's both constitutional law and a Starfleet general order.

Actually if a warp capable civilization poses enough of a direct threat to the Federation, the Federation seems to have no problem interfering with that civilization.

If a foreign state poses a direct threat to the Federation, then they're not interfering with an internal affair, are they?

One could argue that's no one's business but their own if the Cardassian government decides to make biological weapons, they could have come up with all sorts of justifications for these weapons and since the weapons didn't exist in the first place, the Cardassians can claim the Federation interfered with their society without just cause. That's the problem with international or intergalactic politics, the line between self defensive and aggression can be very thin, depending on the intentions of the various players involved.
 
Actually if a warp capable civilization poses enough of a direct threat to the Federation, the Federation seems to have no problem interfering with that civilization.

If a foreign state poses a direct threat to the Federation, then they're not interfering with an internal affair, are they?

One could argue that's no one's business but their own if the Cardassian government decides to make biological weapons,

Sure, one could argue that. The problem with that argument is that it's full of shit.
 
If the Cardassian's were making biological weapons that would only work on Cardassian's that would definantly be an internal affair. If they were making it to target say humans, then the line between internal affair and threat becomes a little less defined. One of the first duties of any government is to protect it's citizens.

In terms of interactions with other space faring races in Star Trek, the Federation generally has a rule of peacful coexistance. In so far as keeping it's citizens as safe as they can. In terms of the Cardassian's and the bioweapons (in "Chain of Command") the Federation wouldn't have taken any action if they hadn't believed the threat that the Cardassians were developing such weapons. Wasn't it the Cardassian's who leaked the false information they were developing weapons?
 
You can see why the Klingon Ambassador was so ticked off at the beginning of TSFS. The Federation has developed a technology that would enable them to wipe out entire planets while leaving a perfectly livable planet in it's place. And yet they are portrayed as the bad guys for trying to find out what exactly it is and the Federation are the good guys for stealing technology, the cloaking device, from the Romulans. And why is that? Because the Federation claim that they're the good guys.

The Romulans crossed the Neutral Zone once in Balance of Terror. The Federation crossed it a minimum of four times (Balance of Terror, The Enterprise Incident, The Way to Eden, The Deadly Years) and that's just the Enterprise. That's three times that the Federation technically declared war, with BoT being self defense.

At least three times the Federation, again in the form of the Enterprise, ignored warnings to stay out of another races space *The Corbomite Maneuver, A Taste of Armageddon, Spectre of the Gun". In CM they elected to continue into the First Federation because they were exploring. In the other two cases they were sent to open diplomatic relations and wouldn't take no for an answer. They even totally changed the culture of Eminiar VII and Vendikar in the process despite receiving a code 7-10 telling them to stay away at all costs. The Federation seems liess like a good neighbour and more like a cosmic Mary Worth, sticking their noses into everyone else business wether they want it or not.
 
If a foreign state poses a direct threat to the Federation, then they're not interfering with an internal affair, are they?

One could argue that's no one's business but their own if the Cardassian government decides to make biological weapons,

Sure, one could argue that. The problem with that argument is that it's full of shit.

Indeed it is, but it is an example of how rather ruthless civilizations can try to twist the PD to their own advantage. These type of excuses, loopholes and political BS happen all the time in international politics, so it only makes sense they happen in intergalactic politics as well.

Plus one could argue that the Romulans influencing the Klingon civil war poses a threat to the Federation as well and the PD it made very hard for the federation to stop Roumlan influence in the civil war.
 
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