I seem to recall phasers often being fired by runabouts, but did we ever see one firing torpedoes or even being mentioned as firing torpedoes?
Did we ever see a runabout firing torpedoes?
- Thread starter toughlittleship
- Start date
In "The Search II", Sisko's runabout spat out something like four torpedoes that destroyed the wormhole. That was a dream sequence, of course - and we didn't see an outside view, just an out-of-the-cockpit-windows view that showed the torps coming from somewhere beneath the craft.
In the preceding "Jem'Hadar", we heard O'Brien being ordered by Captain Keogh to equip the two stationside runabouts with "extra banks of photon torpedoes", but we didn't see these actually being used in the fight. And Nog in panic tried to get the computer of the third runabout to "fire phasers, launch torpedoes and escape pods!!!!", but wisely the computer did none of that, and we didn't learn if there actually were any torps (or escape pods) aboard.
Apparently, though, a standard-looking runabout can have torps aboard, since only one of the two craft specially prepared by O'Brien carried the dorsal pod while both were supposed to be carrying torps. Probably that pod is a targeting aid rather than a weapons platform, then.
As for where the torps come from, it's hard to tell when we don't see actual launches. But in "Past Prologue" we saw an explosive device being deployed via a chute or launcher at the floor of the cockpit section; this might be a launcher for torpedoes, too. The DS9 Technical Manual says the amidship modules or containers can hold full-sized starship torpedoes, though, these being drop-launched through bottom hatches (which have never been part of the actual miniatures, though).
Timo Saloniemi
In the preceding "Jem'Hadar", we heard O'Brien being ordered by Captain Keogh to equip the two stationside runabouts with "extra banks of photon torpedoes", but we didn't see these actually being used in the fight. And Nog in panic tried to get the computer of the third runabout to "fire phasers, launch torpedoes and escape pods!!!!", but wisely the computer did none of that, and we didn't learn if there actually were any torps (or escape pods) aboard.
Apparently, though, a standard-looking runabout can have torps aboard, since only one of the two craft specially prepared by O'Brien carried the dorsal pod while both were supposed to be carrying torps. Probably that pod is a targeting aid rather than a weapons platform, then.
As for where the torps come from, it's hard to tell when we don't see actual launches. But in "Past Prologue" we saw an explosive device being deployed via a chute or launcher at the floor of the cockpit section; this might be a launcher for torpedoes, too. The DS9 Technical Manual says the amidship modules or containers can hold full-sized starship torpedoes, though, these being drop-launched through bottom hatches (which have never been part of the actual miniatures, though).
Timo Saloniemi
Yup - again it seems they come from beneath the craft, but a certain size-related issue makes it difficult to see whether we're dealing with an underbelly or under-cockpit launcher...
http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/6x14/onelittleship_730.jpg
Timo Saloniemi
http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/6x14/onelittleship_730.jpg
Timo Saloniemi
In all of the cases, if we want to. I find it rather unlikely in the first place that these microtorps would really be fired from the stub wings flanking the cockpit like the Manual describes; an underfloor system, from the heftier and more plausible greeblies down there, would explain 100% of the firings.
Although I like the idea of drop-launched, containerized, full-sized torpedoes, I'm not sure we have evidence that a torpedo really can be drop-launched. I mean, if that is possible, why do the big starships bother with their clumsy launching devices?
Timo Saloniemi
Although I like the idea of drop-launched, containerized, full-sized torpedoes, I'm not sure we have evidence that a torpedo really can be drop-launched. I mean, if that is possible, why do the big starships bother with their clumsy launching devices?
Timo Saloniemi
I suppose it would continue the analogy of starship with 20th Century warships: the main weapons are the missiles which are propelled by guns on the ship, but there are torpedoes which can be dropped into the water and then powered up. Maybe these are harder to steer to take longer to reach impact velocity or something when compared to the "missile" photon torpedoes (a complete misnomer in this scenario) we're used to seeing ?
dJE
The tech manual describes the micro torpedo launcher as being under the cockpit module, not to the side. The accompanying illustration does appear to be side mounted though. Perhaps the illustration is wrong and should have been orientated vertically?
As to the need for proper launching devices on star ships, they do accelerate the torpedoes to high speed towards the target. The internal fuel supply could then be mainly used for course corrections.
For a drop-launch torpedo, unless the runabout is heading full pelt directly at the target when it fires (dive bombing?), the torpedo will have to accelerate to full speed itself, increasing the time to impact and using up manoeuvre fuel.
IIRC the torpedo also pinces off a subspace bubble of the launching ship is travelling at warp. Perhaps it then uses that to accelerate, maybe by reducing it in size like a figure skater spinning faster as they draw their arms in tighter to their body. The onboard fuel could then be used to simply sustain the warpfield instead of having to create one itself.
Ah, my mistake, thanks for the correction! Since the launcher is described as "extensible", perhaps the illustration describes the resting position of the launcher, and the firing position involves the 90 degree turn?
There is no actual greeblie of that shape at the bottom of the runabout model, of course. But there is a prominent ribbed drum (like a horizontally placed classic rubbish bin) right in the middle. The feature just yells for some rotating action! It's impressive-looking enough to be plausible as a major piece of fighting hardware; OTOH, it can't fire projectiles unless it extends in some fashion to clear the big bulge under the cockpit and forward of the drum. You know, the one with some sensor greeblies and apparently also landing pads, but without anything that could be our torpedo launcher.
The only problem I have with these explanations is that the torpedoes leaving the runabout in those couple of episodes do not do so appreciably less quickly than the torpedoes leaving various large starships...
Timo Saloniemi
A valid point. I'd speculate, then, that every time we've seen a seen a torpedo fired from a runabout, it's been a micro torpedo. These do come from a dedicated launcher, after all, which would presumably accelerate them to an effective speed.
Full sized torpedoes, simply 'dropped' from the runabout, may well be slower. Unless anyone knows of a cannon incident where we have seen a standard photon or quantum being fired from a runabout, we really can't say for sure. But, IMO, it makes sense.
In "Jem'Hadar", Keogh did order O'Brien to stock the runabouts with what he called "extra" torpedoes, which may tell us not just that the standard ones (arguably from the underfloor microtorp launcher) were good enough in most cases, but also that the extra ones weren't particularly useful in runabout-style fighting and for that reason never got fired, in that episode or others.
In "The Search II", the collapsing the wormhole sounds like a big feat that would call for the full-sized torps. But if those were "extra" and had to be separately installed by swapping the amidship module, it's a bit unlikely that Sisko and his fugitive pals could perform the time-consuming swap - even in a dream!
Personally, I think the runabout should "feel" like a utility helicopter. A fixed chin turret with low-caliber weaponry is fine, but doesn't turn the helicopter into an actual fighting machine when her main purpose is transport. A package of anti-ship missiles or FAE canisters makes a world of a difference, but (despite being a manufacturer-intended modular option) is a silly compromise and any military commander would rather leave the chopper behind and use a "proper" fighting aircraft for the task. Similarly, a Danube can do the same sort of fighting work as the standard Federation fighter, but only barely, and there's little or no point in giving her the torpedo package unless one is out of options.
Keogh probably had no real tactical use for the runabouts, but wanted to make our heroes feel good and thus asked them to tag along. For all we know, he asked for the torpedo modules because he knew this would turn the runabouts into clumsy standoff launch platforms and keep them out of the real fight, thus protecting the heroes.
Timo Saloniemi
In "The Search II", the collapsing the wormhole sounds like a big feat that would call for the full-sized torps. But if those were "extra" and had to be separately installed by swapping the amidship module, it's a bit unlikely that Sisko and his fugitive pals could perform the time-consuming swap - even in a dream!
Personally, I think the runabout should "feel" like a utility helicopter. A fixed chin turret with low-caliber weaponry is fine, but doesn't turn the helicopter into an actual fighting machine when her main purpose is transport. A package of anti-ship missiles or FAE canisters makes a world of a difference, but (despite being a manufacturer-intended modular option) is a silly compromise and any military commander would rather leave the chopper behind and use a "proper" fighting aircraft for the task. Similarly, a Danube can do the same sort of fighting work as the standard Federation fighter, but only barely, and there's little or no point in giving her the torpedo package unless one is out of options.
Keogh probably had no real tactical use for the runabouts, but wanted to make our heroes feel good and thus asked them to tag along. For all we know, he asked for the torpedo modules because he knew this would turn the runabouts into clumsy standoff launch platforms and keep them out of the real fight, thus protecting the heroes.
Timo Saloniemi
Well, 'extra' might just mean 'more of the same', as opposed to different kinds.
In the DS9 TM, it states that the fire and forget method of launching full sized torpedoes from a runabout, without the benefit of a dedicated torpedo tube, can cause difficulty following it's programmed trajectory for the first 3.7 seconds of flight. After that it settles down and is able to track it's target normally.
I'd speculate then that in the close range, high manoeuvre dog fight between runabout and Jem'Hadar attack ship, full sized torpedoes would have been ineffective. By the time it has settled down in it's course it has already moved past the target, missing it completely. Torpedoes fired from a ship with a dedicated launcher do not have that problem.
At that time they had very little information about the Dominion. They may have been expecting to encounter larger ships, in which case full sized torpedoes, if they were carried, would potentially have been useful.
Except either they did, or then proximity blast effects were the problem - because the prominent "ship with a dedicated launcher" did not appear to fire any torpedoes, either.
In contrast, this was one of the rare occasions where the Jem'Hadar attack ships fired compact bolts of light rather than sizzling beams - possibly just a different mode for their phased polaron weapons, but perhaps another example of the use of torpedoes such as those seen in "Starship Down"?
Excellent point.
Timo Saloniemi
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