Maybe a 24 century Excelsior still packs a lot of firepower?

[Knight Templar]

It's an over-engineered hull

Is it? How do you know this?

of generious size (from a 2280's point of view)

In other words. It's a big ship. Well, the Bismark was a big ship. The Vasa was a big ship. The Titanic was a big ship. The Exxon Valdez was a big ship. The mere fact that it's big doesn't prove much.

?

Actually it does. In American Navy building practice, it has been common to build ships larger and larger because larger ships are easier to modify and keep in service longer.

Which is why we now build "destroyers" (Burke class) which are larger and more massive than "cruisers" of a few decades ago.

Larger ships also offer more damage redundancy and resistance to damage without the use of heavy armor.

 

[anh165]

Going back to the Excelsior class' firepower in the 24th century, It's far from cutting edge, even in the 23rd century, tactically the Excelsior wasn't much of a threat , not in the way the TOS connie was regarded in the 2250-2270 era.

 

[Knight Templar]

Going back to the Excelsior class' firepower in the 24th century, It's far from cutting edge, even in the 23rd century, tactically the Excelsior wasn't much of a threat , not in the way the TOS connie was regarded in the 2250-2270 era.

Where do you get that idea?

 

[anh165]

Going back to the Excelsior class' firepower in the 24th century, It's far from cutting edge, even in the 23rd century, tactically the Excelsior wasn't much of a threat , not in the way the TOS connie was regarded in the 2250-2270 era.

Where do you get that idea?

Forgive me, this is just my humble opinion.

The Klingon's in the voyager episode approached Sulu and The Excelsior just like any Starfleet vessel, no sense of caution and respect. Ditto with General Chang, he sees the Excelsior come to range and just fires at it with no 2nd thought. The shot seemed to have shook the Excelsior everybit as bad as it shook the smaller Enterprise-A.

Not much to go on, but if the ST producers really wanted to bill the Excelsior as some mighty warship the we would have seen evidence of it in the storyline. There no reason to suggest the Excelsior is anything more than a faster and more durable ship to replace the aging connie class.

 

[Knight Templar]

Going back to the Excelsior class' firepower in the 24th century, It's far from cutting edge, even in the 23rd century, tactically the Excelsior wasn't much of a threat , not in the way the TOS connie was regarded in the 2250-2270 era.

Where do you get that idea?

Forgive me, this is just my humble opinion.

The Klingon's in the voyager episode approached Sulu and The Excelsior just like any Starfleet vessel, no sense of caution and respect. Ditto with General Chang, he sees the Excelsior come to range and just fires at it with no 2nd thought. The shot seemed to have shook the Excelsior everybit as bad as it shook the smaller Enterprise-A.

Not much to go on, but if the ST producers really wanted to bill the Excelsior as some mighty warship the we would have seen evidence of it in the storyline. There no reason to suggest the Excelsior is anything more than a faster and more durable ship to replace the aging connie class.

You're basing your opinion on "how much the ship shook"??

Ever watch the Voyager episode where the U.S.S. Voyager was fired on by the 80 year old D-7 Klingon cruiser?

Voyager shook just as much as when it was hit by Borg weapons.

Please.

 

[YARN]

Actually it does.

Actually it doesn't. It really doesn't.

In American Navy building practice, it has been common to build ships larger and larger because larger ships are easier to modify and keep in service longer.

We don't know if the Excelsior is a relatively large design for its time our not. As of Star Trek III, we'd seen the Constitution class, the Miranda, the Excelsior, and the Olberth. That's it as far as Federation starships go.

In the near future it may be common for the US Navy to build smaller ships.

I'd like to see some evidence for your off-hand claims about build-sizes, service, and modifiability.

As for the last point (modifiability), it has already been established (in-universe) that Starships are highly modifiable. Throughout the life of the original Enterprise, we saw it go through many modifications. Moreover, it seems to be very common that starships have a modular design (allowing one to swap out nacelles, for example), which is conducive to modification.

The pressures that determine the sizes of ships are often contingent. At different times, different sizes of ship will be more competitive. If US Navy ships used to tend to be smaller, there was probably a pretty good reason for it. If it was a simply a universal truism that the biggest ships are the best, we would see navies always building big ships. But they don't. Different navies have different needs. Different times have different technologies and strategies.

Also, seeing how modernization so often entails miniaturization, it hardly seems to be a truism that bigger ships have a competitive advantage.

Moreover, many larger ships have proven to be design failures (see upthread), precisely because they are so large.

In short, no we cannot simply default to the idea that "bigger is better" is some sort of universal truism that proves much about why the Excelsior succeeded.

Larger ships also offer more damage redundancy and resistance to damage without the use of heavy armor.

Starfleet ships have shields, energy shields. They do not defend themselves from attack in the same fashion the ocean going warships of yesteryear do.

We have learned, for example, that the Defiant is a "tough little ship."

 

[Knight Templar]

Actually it does.

Actually it doesn't. It really doesn't.

In American Navy building practice, it has been common to build ships larger and larger because larger ships are easier to modify and keep in service longer.

We don't know if the Excelsior is a relatively large design for its time our not. As of Star Trek III, we'd seen the Constitution class, the Miranda, the Excelsior, and the Olberth. That's it as far as Federation starships go.

In the near future it may be common for the US Navy to build smaller ships.

I'd like to see some evidence for your off-hand claims about build-sizes, service, and modifiability.

As for the last point (modifiability), it has already been established (in-universe) that Starships are highly modifiable. Throughout the life of the original Enterprise, we saw it go through many modifications. Moreover, it seems to be very common that starships have a modular design (allowing one to swap out nacelles, for example), which is conducive to modification.

The pressures that determine the sizes of ships are often contingent. At different times, different sizes of ship will be more competitive. If US Navy ships used to tend to be smaller, there was probably a pretty good reason for it. If it was a simply a universal truism that the biggest ships are the best, we would see navies always building big ships. But they don't. Different navies have different needs. Different times have different technologies and strategies.

Also, seeing how modernization so often entails miniaturization, it hardly seems to be a truism that bigger ships have a competitive advantage.

Moreover, many larger ships have proven to be design failures (see upthread), precisely because they are so large.

In short, no we cannot simply default to the idea that "bigger is better" is some sort of universal truism that proves much about why the Excelsior succeeded.

Larger ships also offer more damage redundancy and resistance to damage without the use of heavy armor.

Starfleet ships have shields, energy shields. They do not defend themselves from attack in the same fashion the ocean going warships of yesteryear do.

We have learned, for example, that the Defiant is a "tough little ship."

The Defiant is has very heavy physical armor. Established by onscreen dialogue.

And shields very frequently collapse. Also seen onscreen.

Lots of nations don't build large navy ships simply because they are more expensive than smaller ones.

As far as we've seen onscreen, the Excelsior was by far the largest Starfleet vessel of that era. So that is what we go with.

 

[anh165]

Where do you get that idea?

Forgive me, this is just my humble opinion.

The Klingon's in the voyager episode approached Sulu and The Excelsior just like any Starfleet vessel, no sense of caution and respect. Ditto with General Chang, he sees the Excelsior come to range and just fires at it with no 2nd thought. The shot seemed to have shook the Excelsior everybit as bad as it shook the smaller Enterprise-A.

Not much to go on, but if the ST producers really wanted to bill the Excelsior as some mighty warship the we would have seen evidence of it in the storyline. There no reason to suggest the Excelsior is anything more than a faster and more durable ship to replace the aging connie class.

You're basing your opinion on "how much the ship shook"??

Ever watch the Voyager episode where the U.S.S. Voyager was fired on by the 80 year old D-7 Klingon cruiser?

Voyager shook just as much as when it was hit by Borg weapons.

Please.

I dont see why you need to behave like this just because I dont rate the Excelsior much as a tactical vessel. I believe the Excelsior class is a success in her potential for high warp speeds and long range mission capacity, good enough to see her through well into the needs of Starfleet in the 24th century.

In the grand scheme of things, phaser power and defensive systems are less important in exploratory missions which is what the Excelsior is really about.

 

[Knight Templar]

Forgive me, this is just my humble opinion.

The Klingon's in the voyager episode approached Sulu and The Excelsior just like any Starfleet vessel, no sense of caution and respect. Ditto with General Chang, he sees the Excelsior come to range and just fires at it with no 2nd thought. The shot seemed to have shook the Excelsior everybit as bad as it shook the smaller Enterprise-A.

Not much to go on, but if the ST producers really wanted to bill the Excelsior as some mighty warship the we would have seen evidence of it in the storyline. There no reason to suggest the Excelsior is anything more than a faster and more durable ship to replace the aging connie class.

You're basing your opinion on "how much the ship shook"??

Ever watch the Voyager episode where the U.S.S. Voyager was fired on by the 80 year old D-7 Klingon cruiser?

Voyager shook just as much as when it was hit by Borg weapons.

Please.

I dont see why you need to behave like this just because I dont rate the Excelsior much as a tactical vessel. I believe the Excelsior class is a success in her potential for high warp speeds and long range mission capacity, good enough to see her through well into the needs of Starfleet in the 24th century.

In the grand scheme of things, phaser power and defensive systems are less important in exploratory missions which is what the Excelsior is really about.

What onscreen sources can you point to as providing the basis for your conclusions that "high warp speeds" are important for exploratory missions?

For that matter, aside from the mention of "cataloguing gaseous anomalies" mentioned in the opening of Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, what evidence do you have of the Excelsior being primarily an exploration vessel?

Which by the way never made sense anyway. Something mundane as "cataloguing gaseous anomalies" could probably be done more efficiently by unmanned probes.

We do have many references to unmanned probes in Star Trek (Tin Man being one example).

 

[YARN]

The Defiant is has very heavy physical armor. Established by onscreen dialogue.

And yet the example still works. Defiant is a small ship. She didn't need to be BIG to be built tough.

Again, you are simply reasoning that "bigger is better" without any grounding context. How much shielding is adequate? How much space is needed?

And we don't know that the Excelsior is even meant to be heavily shielded. We know that she was a test bed for a new propulsion system, but that's it. She doesn't seem to have super shielding in the Battle of Khitomer.

Your reasoning is that

1. the ship is large,

2. making space for extra shielding,

3. therefore, she must have extra shielding, which is

4. a significant reason why this ship lasted so long.

The problem with premise 1., is that we have only seen 4 federation starships at the point of her launch and trial runs! What you offer is simply a hasty generalization.

Also, Trek is notorious for ship scaling. In Star Trek 3 & 6 she looks to be about the same size as the Enterprise. In TNG she looks to be about the same size as the Enterprise D. We don't know how big she is. We just know she's bulky-looking because of her short fat neck (her nacelles look as suitably whispy as other federation ships).

Premise 2. is of dubious import without knowing actual structural requirements for a ship to be considered adequately shielded.

We cannot derive #3, from #1 and #2 and we don't have other sources of evidence/reasoning to settle the matter either. She was built to be fast, but that's all we really know.

And shields very frequently collapse. Also seen onscreen.

And we've seen Mirandas and Excelsiors get smacked down in big battles. Also seen on screen.

Lots of nations don't build large navy ships simply because they are more expensive than smaller ones.

This is one contingency that influences build size. There are others. The purpose of the ship, for example, is related to it's size. A carrier is larger than a destroyer.

 

[anh165]

What onscreen sources can you point to as providing the basis for your conclusions that "high warp speeds" are important for exploratory missions?

On screen: It was built to have transwarp drive.

I'm pretty certain they needed a faster and larger type of ship that can sustain a crew over greater distances without resupply and restock if they want to explore further than what the Connies and Miranda classes have covered in the 2260's

For that matter, aside from the mention of "cataloguing gaseous anomalies" mentioned in the opening of Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, what evidence do you have of the Excelsior being primarily an exploration vessel?

Which by the way never made sense anyway. Something mundane as "cataloguing gaseous anomalies" could probably be done more efficiently by unmanned probes.

We do have many references to unmanned probes in Star Trek (Tin Man being one example).

You only need to look at the storyline on all the movies and TV episodes that feature the Excelsior, she was either just doing mundane scientific missions, breaking down outside space dock, stuck inside space dock without power, and being slapped around by Klingon BOPs and Ktinga cruisers, there is nothing on screen that shows the producers wanted the Excelsior to be some mighty all conquering space weapon, but just another Starfleet vessel facing danger and peril like any hero ship would be subjected to.

How about the Enterprise B? Would Starfleet atleast made more of an effort to ensure she was fully equipped with torpedoes on her maiden voyage if she really was supposed to be a battleship rather than a sophisticaed vessel of exploration and diplomacy?

 

[anh165]

And yet the example still works. Defiant is a small ship. She didn't need to be BIG to be built tough.

Again, you are simply reasoning that "bigger is better" without any grounding context. How much shielding is adequate? How much space is needed?

And we don't know that the Excelsior is even meant to be heavily shielded. We know that she was a test bed for a new propulsion system, but that's it. She doesn't seem to have super shielding in the Battle of Khitomer.

I would say the Excelsior's size is more to do with crew capacity - and system redundancy - which is pretty important when you're very far from home. The ship is supposed to be capable of travelling much faster and further than any other starfleet ship before her. Enough for even 24th century Starfleet requirements which would explain partly why this class is still used in that time period.

The hull itself - regardless of the size would be a step up from the Connie class, it had to be if you were going to house warp engines that take you to these theoretical 'transwarps speeds'

I don't believe the Excelsior is much cop when it comes to shielding and firepower. The Klingons approached the Excelsior with almost gay abandon - in other words they did not see her as a real threat

 

[USS Excelsior]

And the Prometheus was supposed to be a long range tactical vessel, so it must have had the best of both worlds between Excelsiors and Defiants.

 

[YARN]

I would say the Excelsior's size is more to do with crew capacity - and system redundancy - which is pretty important when you're very far from home. The ship is supposed to be capable of travelling much faster and further than any other starfleet ship before her. Enough for even 24th century Starfleet requirements which would explain partly why this class is still used in that time period.

This seems plausible to me. If she is traveling faster, she is going a greater distance, and so needs to be able to handle herself.

We should remember, however, that redundancy is important for any FTL ship.

EX: Captain's log, Star date 1312.9. Ship's condition, heading back on impulse power only. Main engines burned out. The ship's space warp ability gone. Earth bases which were only days away are now years in the distance.

Also, I am not sure that redundancy would necessarily imply significantly greater size. She might just be built that much better. In either case, however, this means that for her time she would have been a highly engineered ship. This adds weight to the explanation of QUALITY as the reason for her success. And this (finally) offers us some explanation as to why there were so many of these ships beyond the truisms of quality and quantity - now we're finally getting to some plausibility arguments establishing that she probably was high quality. You don't need a Jane's manual. You just need better arguments. Yours is a better argument.

On the other hand, you have not yet established that the Excelsior was an especially large ship. She has a thick neck, but she has been seen to comparably scale with the 1701, 1701-A, and 1701-D. We don't know how big the ship is.

The hull itself - regardless of the size would be a step up from the Connie class, it had to be if you were going to house warp engines that take you to these theoretical 'transwarps speeds'

Why? We don't know anything about transwarp speeds. If they're anything like warp speed it would seem that it is a rather boring and smooth ride. You're in space, so it's not like you have to worry about air-friction or breaking the sound barrier.

I don't believe the Excelsior is much cop when it comes to shielding and firepower. The Klingons approached the Excelsior with almost gay abandon - in other words they did not see her as a real threat

I agree. I think we have to conclude that the ship was probably a very solid design for its time, and that they made enough of them that they'd still be in circulation in the TNG-era. You've offered a plausible enough argument for believing that it was well-built, which doesn't tell us much, but it does give us reason to think that QUALITY was a test that she passed. How she passed it. How big she is. How well armed she is. How great her shields are. None of these are questions we can really answer let alone use to explain the success of the Excelsior.

 

[anh165]

Why? We don't know anything about transwarp speeds. If they're anything like warp speed it would seem that it is a rather boring and smooth ride. You're in space, so it's not like you have to worry about air-friction or breaking the sound barrier.

We know nothing about her transwarp, all we know is it was supposed to be faster than anything the Enterprise had acheived, hence Cpt Styles bragging about looking forward to breaking the Enterprise's speed records.

Notice in ST6 the Excelsior nearly 'flying herself apart' on maximum speed through conventional warp drive. Seems that in trek universe speed does put a load on the ship's hull.

I agree. I think we have to conclude that the ship was probably a very solid design for its time, and that they made enough of them that they'd still be in circulation in the TNG-era. You've offered a plausible enough argument for believing that it was well-built, which doesn't tell us much, but it does give us reason to think that QUALITY was a test that she passed. How she passed it. How big she is. How well armed she is. How great her shields are. None of these are questions we can really answer let alone use to explain the success of the Excelsior.

Yes she's a solid design that serves its purpose of carrying crew around over considerable distances, that seemingly Starfleet can afford to pump these ships out in high numbers. My guess is SF could have designed a ship that does everything it can do but better but can it be done in the same great volumes at the same level of outlay?

 

[YARN]

Notice in ST6 the Excelsior nearly 'flying herself apart' on maximum speed through conventional warp drive. Seems that in trek universe speed does put a load on the ship's hull.

Well, drive a YUGO or Geo Metro at above 80 MPH and see if the same thing doesn't happen.

Whenever they strained the ship's engines on Trek we'd hear the whole ship start to rattle.

On the other hand, when aliens have pumped up the power output of the engines of the Enterprise she's purred like a kitten at very high warp.

Yes she's a solid design that serves its purpose of carrying crew around over considerable distances,

It would seem that they would have discovered that transwarp drive was a failure pretty early on. We don't have evidence that she is especially long-ranged on conventional warp-power.

 

[Knight Templar]

Notice in ST6 the Excelsior nearly 'flying herself apart' on maximum speed through conventional warp drive. Seems that in trek universe speed does put a load on the ship's hull.

Well, drive a YUGO or Geo Metro at above 80 MPH and see if the same thing doesn't happen.

Whenever they strained the ship's engines on Trek we'd hear the whole ship start to rattle.

On the other hand, when aliens have pumped up the power output of the engines of the Enterprise she's purred like a kitten at very high warp.

Yes she's a solid design that serves its purpose of carrying crew around over considerable distances,

It would seem that they would have discovered that transwarp drive was a failure pretty early on. We don't have evidence that she is especially long-ranged on conventional warp-power.

Actually, it has never been said onscreen IIRC, that transwarp was a failure.

Former Star Trek consultant (and some say Roddenberry sycophant) Richard Arnold was the one who insisted that it was a "failure" and that the whole purpose of the Excelsior was to "show how great the Enterprise still was".

 

[YARN]

Actually, it has never been said onscreen IIRC, that transwarp was a failure.

Former Star Trek consultant (and some say Roddenberry sycophant) Richard Arnold was the one who insisted that it was a "failure" and that the whole purpose of the Excelsior was to "show how great the Enterprise still was".

Memory Alpha reports:

The USS Excelsior was employed by Starfleet to test the Federation's version of the transwarp drive in the 2280s. (Star Trek III: The Search for Spock) By the following decade, however, the ship used a standard warp drive. (Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country) Dilithium used in all Federation warp cores becomes unstable at the high warp frequency essential in the Federation transwarp design. Achieving warp 10 was never possible on the Excelsior. (VOY: "Threshold").

If the crew of Voyager was having a tough time cracking the transwarp barrier in the TNG era, it seems pretty obvious that the Excelsior test-bed didn't sold the problem in the TMP era.

 

[Knight Templar]

Actually, it has never been said onscreen IIRC, that transwarp was a failure.

Former Star Trek consultant (and some say Roddenberry sycophant) Richard Arnold was the one who insisted that it was a "failure" and that the whole purpose of the Excelsior was to "show how great the Enterprise still was".

Memory Alpha reports:

The USS Excelsior was employed by Starfleet to test the Federation's version of the transwarp drive in the 2280s. (Star Trek III: The Search for Spock) By the following decade, however, the ship used a standard warp drive. (Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country) Dilithium used in all Federation warp cores becomes unstable at the high warp frequency essential in the Federation transwarp design. Achieving warp 10 was never possible on the Excelsior. (VOY: "Threshold").

If the crew of Voyager was having a tough time cracking the transwarp barrier in the TNG era, it seems pretty obvious that the Excelsior test-bed didn't sold the problem in the TMP era.

Traveling faster than Warp 10 and Transwarp are two different things.

and I don't recall Memory Alpha being the last word about what is canon in Star Trek.

 

[YARN]

Traveling faster than Warp 10 and Transwarp are two different things.

Are they? Are you a transwarp theorist? I'm not.

The episode Threshold features Paris working to break "the maximum warp barrier." Later he accuses Janeway of being jealous that he "broke the transwarp barrier." This speed is identified as Warp 10. Kim discusses the safety of transwarp speed in connection with discussion of breaking this alleged barrier.

and I don't recall Memory Alpha being the last word about what is canon in Star Trek.

I never said Memory Alpha is the final word - but it does carry more weight than you're typical anonymous forum participant on the internet.

What matters, however, is that Voyager IS canon.

It's telling that we never hear another peep about transwarp drive until this Voyager episode - and even then the experiment was a failure.