Despite personal woes, Sisko handled the situation with Donatra well. The proof is in the pudding and he proved himself in his performance.
The Fall of Ben Sisko
- Thread starter Min Zife
- Start date
So, you want someone to give examples to prove their point, but when they ask the same of you, you find that unnessecary? Is that it?
I proved my point, Mage (a few posts upward of the one you quote):
http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=6119590&postcount=112
I trust anyone here can use google or wikipedia.
Sci, on the other hand, refused or was unable to prove his; and I called him out on it.
Your proof is that people need to google stuff? I mean, you could ATLEAST come up with an actual book title that proofs what you're saying.
And since I've delt with depression.... yes, it impacted me. But I did my job, since it was expected of me. It wasn't always easy. But I did it. In the mean time, I had my medications, and had help. My collegues knew some of what I was going through, but they knew I also was capable of doing my job.
I think people here have a pretty messed up idea of what depression really is.
Here you go, Mage - books that say (among other things) what I have:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&....,cf.osb&fp=ce7868657b5cb0e2&biw=1113&bih=591
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_depressive_disorder
And it took ALL of 5 seconds on google.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&....,cf.osb&fp=ce7868657b5cb0e2&biw=1113&bih=591
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_depressive_disorder
And it took ALL of 5 seconds on google.
Thanks, I'll take a look, I'm sure I'll learn a lot of things I haven't learned from suffering through depression and having therapy for it.
I'm sorry, but Sci is right. Having gone through it myself, I can tell you that some people suffering through depressions can still do their jobs. It depends on the job, and how deep their depression is. It's not a black and white state of mind I'm afraid.
Compassion, I will save it for starving kids not Americans who for the most part don't know how good they got it. I am not saying all cases are not legit but there is a lot of over-prescribing in America. Oh and I have taken courses and done research in the area.
As for the use of "u" really have you never seen text messaging before. I will safe proper writing for papers and type however I like on forums.
As for Mage, Yes but what is your job? I'd give your argument more weight if u were a cop, or military, a doctor, or some other job with high stress. Starfleet Captain is a high stress job and dangerous especially after the Federation took a major beating. U can expect less resources, less support, etc. If u got a job as a librarian, its a lot easier to still do a good job but not the same as being in the army where u might be making life or death choices. I would note this is a time where Starfleet needs their top tier commanders to step up so that might have some impact as well. And even if he can do his job, he should still be evaluated first.
Now, I might be a bit to hot on this issue but lets face it when your a minority u can count the positive well developed minority characters in well known Sci Fi on one hand.
Me three.
As for compartmentalization, well, yes, some people do show an inhuman ability to compartmentalize problematic areas of their life from non-problematic ones (usually private life from public life). I'm reminded of people who were in the closet about their sexual orientations, many of whom combined highly public roles and even pretended (or real) heterosexual relationships with decidedly non-heterosexual inclinations and even activities.
On the face of it, I don't find anything necessarily implausible with Sisko's command of a starship while undergoing huge stress related to the Prophets' predictions, especially in the context of a post-2381 Starfleet that's short on manpower and rife with psychological issues. The upcoming duology will, I think, see things break in whatever direction.
There have been plenty of closeted high-ranking police and military officials, and politicians, and occupiers of other high-stress jobs. Despite significant stresses many of these people have done quite well at their jobs.
It's important for everyone to note, I think, that not everyone with serious depression is capable of compartmentalizing enough to succeed at a high-stress job while the depression is ongoing. It's enough, for the purposes of the plausibility of RBOE, for some people to be able to do so. The balance of evidence suggests that Sisko is one of those people, as evidenced by his success at Utopia Planitia and recommendation for command of DS9 while going through brutal post-Saratoga grief at the loss of Jennifer, especially in the context of a Starfleet that, frankly, can't spare the resources in the post-2381 context.
Do you command a submarine armed with nuclear weapons as your job?
If yes, you should not have been allowed to retain your position while under depression - the criteria for selection must be very strict for such a job; there is too much potential for catastrophe for any other policy; you play with the lives of millions - political correctness only goes so far.
If you're suffering from depression, there are many other candidates who are better qualified for such high-stress, high-responsibility jobs.
I know, you don't like at all what I just said; when reading it, at least consider, you are very subjective about the matter.
We're talking about clinical depression here, not sexuality. You generalise hugely, without proof.
As I told Sci - present proof that people exist who can compartimentalise to such a degree so as to keep clinical depression out of an aspect of their lives.
Well I agree in the Pos-2381 context. A Famous Leader like Sisko is probably going to get the benefit of the doubt because Starfleet needs everyone they can get especially their well known leaders. Still think there should be some review process though.
1. Millions of Americans today are food-insecure, meaning they're either undernourished or live in constant danger of becoming undernourished. Among them millions of children.
2. Telling someone with clinical depression, of whatever degree of severity, that they don't deserve compassion because their material suffering isn't as great as others is incredibly cruel. Clinical depression is real, whether you want it to be or not, and it is involuntary, and it causes a great deal of anguish and pain. It is not a function of privilege the way you're implying--it occurs across all classes, in all communities, in all nations.
But the stress of being closeted very frequently caused--and has caused--significant depression among the closeted, especially in high-stress positions like the one I mentioned. Having a burdensome secret, like the fact that you're gay, or the fact that the empirically verified gods you've built a relationship with seem to have told you that if you stay in contact with the people you love they'll die prematurely, wears at you.
We're not saying that compartmentalization is a common reaction. I'm willing to concede that it's relatively rare. There's no reason to think that Sisko's incapable of it, especially given his pretty high performance in the years after the death of his wife.
(Edit_XYZ, how do you interpret that period in his life? I'm curious, especially since he seems to have been seriously depressed in that timeframe.)
Agreed that there should be. I'll wait for the duology to come out to see how the issue will be dealt with, at least outside of the Starfleet framework.
And the proof that his depression is affecting his command performance is?
There WAS a review- in Admiral Akaar's office. The head of Starfleet deemed him fit for duty. Later the president of the UFP found Sisko worthy of a sensitive and high-stakes diplomatic mission. If the commanding officer of ALL of starfleet and the president find him fit, why is there need of a psychological evaluation? Could a doctor undermine the decison of Akaar and Bacco? Would a doctor want to be in a situation to question their decisions?
I for one trust Akaar to size up the man and make that decision.
As much as it pains me to speak on the side of RBoE...I do think Sisko's command fitness was adequately addressed. In addition to Adm. Akaar, Commander Rogeiro clearly thought Sisko was walking a fine line but could find no actionable/defensible reason for him to be relieved. He was clearly uninspiring as captain, but functional.
Issues about mental stability and command fitness are central to one of my favorite stories of all time, The Caine Mutiny by Herman Wouk. It is fantastic novel that received excellent stage and screen adaptions which I can't recommend enough.
Issues about mental stability and command fitness are central to one of my favorite stories of all time, The Caine Mutiny by Herman Wouk. It is fantastic novel that received excellent stage and screen adaptions which I can't recommend enough.
And, of course, one of the things to remember about Rough Beasts is that it closes with Sisko deciding to start bonding with his crew, the way he used to aboard DS9. The implication being, by finally committing to his decision to leave Kassidy and divorce her, he could finally move on to the next phase of his life, to start to emotionally recover from all that had happened to him.
It is a bitter truth of life that sometimes, only by accepting and committing to the decisions we've made, even ones that in retrospect are not good decisions, can we move on and recover.
