The Fall of Ben Sisko

Discussion in 'Trek Literature' started by Min Zife, Mar 27, 2012.

  1. Mage

    Mage Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Lot's of people suffering from depression are very good at hiding it from others, either by acting as if nothing is wrong, or having people believe that their behavior is just part of there character. Except towards some friends and family, Sisko has not given Starfleet any direct signs that could lead them to believe he is suffering from depression. And the divorce is not a sign of that. People get divorced, it happens. Never was there a divorce where others thought 'Oh, this must mean that he/she is depressed'.

    And sure, people can say that there are signs. Yes, there are. But would you know? How often don't we hear of people who commited suicide, leaving a note telling how depressed they were, and everyone says 'I can't believe it, he/she was always in such a good mood'. And yes, Sisko was acting surly, but his behavior towards the crew of the Robinson can be explained by so many reasons other then a depression.

    I think for a lot of Sisko-fans it's very hard to deal with the fact their hero is not perfect. That's always difficult. I don't have that problem, because he was never a hero to me. I don't have hero's. Only people I admire. I admire the character of Sisko, but can also see that he is not perfect, that he has flaws. So, know that he has gone a path that a lot of people don't approve, they 'drop their hero'. I hope these people will still give the next two novels by DRGIII a change, to see if and how Sisko deals with this.
     
  2. Sci

    Sci Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    If one were to go by the complaints one finds on the TrekBBS, apparently Pocket Book has it out for Janeway (her arc in Before Dishonor), Sisko (his arc in Rough Beasts of Empire), and Picard (his arc in Destiny).

    From this, I can only presume that Pocket Books in fact hates all Star Trek and is secretly attempting to sabotage the entire line and thereby go bankrupt. Or something.
     
  3. Mage

    Mage Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Sounds about right. Not the part about Pocket trying to do something like that, but fans actually thinking such things.

    I mean, I can actually see DRGIII sitting in his office or study of where ever he likes to write, thinking: what can I do to deliberatly piss of the fans?? I mean, are there really fans out there who think that?
     
  4. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Which is exactly my point. RBoE is the first novel about Sisko in the post-Destiny era. It's the beginning of a new phase of storytelling. So it's the start of the journey -- again. So by your own words, you should expect this to be something he will get over in future books. So why the hell don't you?


    If he had been convinced that staying with Jake would've endangered him, then of course he would've left Jake. It's dishonest to compare the situations and ignore the obvious differences between them.


    But as you just pointed out, it's not the same plot. First your objection is that his behavior is different in the two situations, then in the very next sentence your objection is that it's the same? Make up your mind!


    We already covered this, so if you're actually bothering to participate in this conversation with an open mind and listen to what the rest of us are saying, then you should already know this is a spurious and nonsensical objection.


    I have no idea what you even think you're referring to here.


    And you clearly aren't familiar with the subject, so you're not qualified to make that determination.
     
  5. Mage

    Mage Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Christopher, thank you!!!!
     
  6. Sjaddix

    Sjaddix Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    And I presume u have a medical degree or a degree in psychology christopher? That would make u an expert.
     
  7. Sci

    Sci Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    He may not have a medical or psychology degree, but I'm sure he knows how to spell the word "you."

    Of course, one doesn't need to have a degree to recognize that clinical depression is a genuine medical condition and that one who suffers from clinical depression should not be discriminated against when it does not negatively impact job performance. Which Sisko's does not.
     
  8. rfmcdpei

    rfmcdpei Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Sisko based his actions on his experiences in the nine months of objective time he spent inside the Celestial Temple. These experiences suggested to him that if he stayed in contact with the people he loved, they would suffer tragic premature deaths. The predictive powers of the Prophets are real, and Sisko has more reason than most to believe in them.

    I suspect that the decisive event occurred in the book, when Sisko tried to consult with the Prophets through an Orb one last time and experienced nothing. That experience seems to have confirmed Sisko's interpretation.
     
  9. Rush Limborg

    Rush Limborg Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Wait. If Sisko's 9-month experience in the Temple geve him insight into their minds and lines of thinking, then why did he leave the Temple in the first place?
     
  10. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    I have personal experience with clinical depression, both in myself and in my family. So yes, I'm a damn sight more knowledgeable about it than you are. Hell, anyone who's taken an elementary psych class, or just had enough compassion and decency to try to understand mental illness before dismissing it out of hand, would be more knowledgeable.
     
  11. rfmcdpei

    rfmcdpei Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Did he leave of his own choice? Was he sent by the Prophets? (Do we even know?)
     
  12. Sci

    Sci Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    This question is a non sequitor. It's the equivalent of asking, "Wait. If you learned so much in college, why'd you graduate?"

    He left the Wormhole because he and/or the Prophets decided it was time for him to leave, because he and/or they decided he had things he needed to do back in our realm. Such as, for instance, defeating the Parasites, which you may recall his return helped with.
     
  13. Rush Limborg

    Rush Limborg Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Not a non sequiter at all. See, here's my point: wouldn't he, in his state in the Temple, have seen that kind of grief he'd experience coming?

    Or was that somehow wiped out of his memory? Or...did the Prophets simply not let him have that ability to experience non-linear time..and somehow neglected to give him any warning of what was to come?

    Frankly, if that's the case, it's as if they somehow decided to be come significantly less courteous to him, especially considering how before the Temple, they did give him a warning!


    Frankly, with that, Sisko seems less and less like a character given in to depression and more and more like a man reaching his breaking point due to being stuck in a cruel universe which merely has it in for him, and Fate (and/or the Prophets) is obsessed with making him suffer!

    (Interestingly enough...this universe seems to see fit to, again, blind all his firends and colleagues to the fact that he's going through chronic depression. As I said last page: if Sisko's decisions really can be attributed to a pshycological issue or emotional problem...then how did everyone around him--especially his Starfleet colleagues and friends--somehow miss it, and allow him to get his own command, again?)
     
  14. Sci

    Sci Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    More likely that he saw what they saw whilst living in the Wormhole, but couldn't retain details of the information when he returned to linear time. He attempted (as we all do) to defy what he knew to be fate by staying with his family, and then watched as horrible things kept happening to his loved ones over the course of the next few years before finally deciding that he needed to leave them to protect them.

    The Prophets have always vacillated between being concerned for his welfare and being aloof and unempathetic.

    I don't think anyone's blinded to the fact that he's experiencing clinical depression. I think his first officer aboard the Robinson, amongst others, knows. But the fact of the matter is, it is not negatively impacting his job performance. And until it does, they can't remove him from command -- that would be deeply discriminatory and unjust.

    (And that's to say nothing of the fact that the man is a hugely decorated war hero who practically won the Dominion War for the Federation, and of the fact that Starfleet just lost 40% of its ships and officer corps, and is therefore suffering from a dearth of qualified command officers.)
     
  15. Rush Limborg

    Rush Limborg Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^Clinical Depression, by its very nature, is emotional compromise. The claim that it doesn't inherently affect his performance is very problematic, to say the least. If it causes him to behave irrationally in his personal life, it should be held to be gounds to legitimately fear it affecting him in his professional life. And if this depression is clinical, it isn't just the crew of the Robinson who should be held accountable.

    Again--as I said a couple pages ago:
    Thus, my question is: when did this clinical depression start? Why didn't Julian Bashir, at the very least, take notice of it?

    Thus, my second question: How did he get the Robinson in the first place? This assumes he wasn't medically/psycologically "checked out" before getting back into active duty--which is absurd, dearth or not.
     
  16. F. King Daniel

    F. King Daniel Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    ^And, as I said a few pages ago:
    And then, there are the TOS-era captains we've seen (Garth, Tracey, Decker), and Barclay's ignored-for-years-and-years severe social anxiety. Not to mention some of the captains in Trek lit, like Captain Kenyon. Looked at from a real-life standpoint, Starfleet's mental health department is in need of a serious overhaul, to say the least. But, a perfect Starfleet makes for dull stories.

    As does a perfect Sisko.
     
  17. rfmcdpei

    rfmcdpei Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    My impression is that while the founding elements of the depression had been in place for years, it was the events of 2381, including the Borg invasion and Vaughn's near-mortal wounding, that pushed him over the edge. The depression would have developed in the course of a year when other people had other issues, frankly.

    Why would Julian Bashir take note of it? Genetically engineered though Bashir may be, Sisko hadn't been a serving officer in Starfleet for years before RBOE's events.

    I'd think that the depression developed after he committed to his decision, first after meeting with Akaar then on Bajor.
     
  18. Sci

    Sci Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Rush, do you understand that there are degrees of clinical depression, that sometimes it can affect someone's personal life but not impact their professional life? 'Cos you seem to be operating under the impression that it's always this uniform phenomenon that is inherently crippling in all aspects of one's functionality.
     
  19. Rush Limborg

    Rush Limborg Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^I am simply working under the assumptions of the argument I was quoting--namely, that of Mage.

    However--even without that, if his depression is such that it would lead him to make irrational decisions in his personal life, surely it is not that big of a stretch to be concerned that it would affect his professional life?

    Now...

    I understand imperfection. But what you are describing is a plot contrivance.

    Gene Roddenberry and John D. F. Black emphasized in their guide for TOS writers--with the hugging-a-random-yeoman thing--that if you won't believe it on the bridge of an aircraft carrier, you wouldn't believe it on the bridge of the Enterprise.

    Military or not...a moments reflection would not allow us to accept that Starfleet's mental health department is so incompetent--or at least, wouldn't address those imperfections whenever a slip through the cracks (i.e., Barclay) is exposed.

    Furthermore...Barclay was not a captain. Surely the mental/psychological check-ups for command officers would be more strict than for junior lieutenants....

    Finally--Garth, Tracy, and Decker weren't insane until they "snapped"--and in the case of Garth, he was committed. Tracy went rogue when he went insane...and Decker was only driven nuts the same episode in which he died.
     
  20. Sci

    Sci Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    So, in other words, no, you don't know much about clinical depression and haven't done any research yourself.

    Prove it.