RLM's 'ending multiplication effect' and DS9

[TheLobes]

Im sure most people on this forum are familiar with red letter media's review of 'The Phantom Menace', if youre not, then I would highly recommend it.

One point he makes about Star Wars is how the endings started simply (attack on death star) and ended up with too many things going on (Gungun battle, Jedi duel, Anakin space battle, Amidala storms the palace). In his words 'the simplest endings to the first two movies, with the least locations and events, are vastly more interesting because the plot is built up to them and we can focus on the one thing'.

I wonder how people feel about this statement in relation to the end of Deep Space Nine. The last episode is stuffed with so much stuff that Ive always found it to be a bit of a disappoinment. Theres no 'focus on the one thing', in fact I think thats a complaint that can be made of the seventh season in general; theres too much to focus on, and the characters arent as connected as they were. Does anyone else think there should have been much less going on in that, with everything built up around one plot point?

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

I agree. I didn't even watch the last 10 episodes or so because I knew there was so much going on that it was leading up to an underwhelming finale.

 

[sonak]

Im sure most people on this forum are familiar with red letter media's review of 'The Phantom Menace', if youre not, then I would highly recommend it.

One point he makes about Star Wars is how the endings started simply (attack on death star) and ended up with too many things going on (Gungun battle, Jedi duel, Anakin space battle, Amidala storms the palace). In his words 'the simplest endings to the first two movies, with the least locations and events, are vastly more interesting because the plot is built up to them and we can focus on the one thing'.

I wonder how people feel about this statement in relation to the end of Deep Space Nine. The last episode is stuffed with so much stuff that Ive always found it to be a bit of a disappoinment. Theres no 'focus on the one thing', in fact I think thats a complaint that can be made of the seventh season in general; theres too much to focus on, and the characters arent as connected as they were. Does anyone else think there should have been much less going on in that, with everything built up around one plot point?

I don't think that applies to WYLB at all. It's basically just a typical A-B plot, with the epilogue to the Dominion War being A and the prophet/pah-wraith stuff being B.

 

[TheLobes]

I don't think that applies to WYLB at all. It's basically just a typical A-B plot, with the epilogue to the Dominion War being A and the prophet/pah-wraith stuff being B.

Can you really relegate the 'prophet/pah-wraith' stuff to the b-plot? This is something thats been building from the very first episode of ds9! The climax to that entire ds9 arc is so incredible poor it almost seems like a joke. Sisko just goes and does some pretty meaningless task and thats it. They should have tied those two together, the emissary plot and the dominion war plot. Even the end of the Dominion war seems pretty boring, because its not given enough spotlight in an episode thats packed with stuff happening.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I think that while all of the plot threads were very interesting, where the ball was dropped in WYLB was how the Fire Caves scenes were interspersed into the episode. Unless they explained that by time dilation effects in the Caves (which they did not), there was no reason for so little to happen in such a long time.

 

[BennyRussel]

I agree. I didn't even watch the last 10 episodes or so because I knew there was so much going on that it was leading up to an underwhelming finale.

How can you agree if you didn't watch the last 10 episodes or so?

 

[sonak]

I don't think that applies to WYLB at all. It's basically just a typical A-B plot, with the epilogue to the Dominion War being A and the prophet/pah-wraith stuff being B.

Can you really relegate the 'prophet/pah-wraith' stuff to the b-plot? This is something thats been building from the very first episode of ds9! The climax to that entire ds9 arc is so incredible poor it almost seems like a joke. Sisko just goes and does some pretty meaningless task and thats it. They should have tied those two together, the emissary plot and the dominion war plot. Even the end of the Dominion war seems pretty boring, because its not given enough spotlight in an episode thats packed with stuff happening.

I agree it was botched and resolved poorly. I was merely pointing out that there wasn't an excess of storylines.

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

I agree. I didn't even watch the last 10 episodes or so because I knew there was so much going on that it was leading up to an underwhelming finale.

How can you agree if you didn't watch the last 10 episodes or so?

Sorry, should have explained better. I already knew how the series as a whole ended (I spoiler myself constantly) and didn't feel like it was worth watching those ten episodes for the conclusion I knew was coming.

 

[TheLobes]

Sorry, should have explained better. I already knew how the series as a whole ended (I spoiler myself constantly) and didn't feel like it was worth watching those ten episodes for the conclusion I knew was coming.

Youve posted over 1300 times, but havent seen the last ten episodes?! Id recommend watching them, even if they arent that great. Theres still a fair amount of good moments, and one pretty good episode. The problem is more to do with the story arcs than with the general qaulity of writing (in terms of general dialogue I never thought ds9 was great anyway).

 

[bigdaddy]

I think the problem was they wanted to end the show with seven seasons when the show really could have used an 8th.

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

Sorry, should have explained better. I already knew how the series as a whole ended (I spoiler myself constantly) and didn't feel like it was worth watching those ten episodes for the conclusion I knew was coming.

Youve posted over 1300 times, but havent seen the last ten episodes?! Id recommend watching them, even if they arent that great. Theres still a fair amount of good moments, and one pretty good episode. The problem is more to do with the story arcs than with the general qaulity of writing (in terms of general dialogue I never thought ds9 was great anyway).

Have I really posted that much? Wow.

I might watch them eventually...I've been having an itch to watch some Trek I haven't seen lately...maybe that's what I'll watch.

 

[Brikar99]

I think that while all of the plot threads were very interesting, where the ball was dropped in WYLB was how the Fire Caves scenes were interspersed into the episode. Unless they explained that by time dilation effects in the Caves (which they did not), there was no reason for so little to happen in such a long time.

This. The way the episode is structured makes it seem like the Federation went all the way to Cardassia, ended the war, back to DS9, drafted and signed a treaty all in the time it took for Dukat and Winn to take a day hike... Or that Dukat and Winn meandered about those caves for the better part of a week in the same clothes with no food or water.

I also found the heavy use of stock footage in the final battle highly underwhelming. Boo to budget constraints.

 

[MacLeod]

I got the impression that it was an unconditional surrrender, so signing a treaty stating as such wouln't be that hard.

 

[Tiberius]

I think that while all of the plot threads were very interesting, where the ball was dropped in WYLB was how the Fire Caves scenes were interspersed into the episode. Unless they explained that by time dilation effects in the Caves (which they did not), there was no reason for so little to happen in such a long time.

They're very big caves, and the terrain inside them makes it hard to move quickly.

 

[Search4]

I agree. I didn't even watch the last 10 episodes or so because I knew there was so much going on that it was leading up to an underwhelming finale.

How can you agree if you didn't watch the last 10 episodes or so?

Sorry, should have explained better. I already knew how the series as a whole ended (I spoiler myself constantly) and didn't feel like it was worth watching those ten episodes for the conclusion I knew was coming.

So this gives you the basis for an opinion?

 

[Jarvisimo]

I think the problem was they wanted to end the show with seven seasons when the show really could have used an 8th.

But then we wouldn't have had the wonderful DS9R, beginning with Avatar, which really did pick up the ball on Bajor and many other plots.

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

How can you agree if you didn't watch the last 10 episodes or so?

Sorry, should have explained better. I already knew how the series as a whole ended (I spoiler myself constantly) and didn't feel like it was worth watching those ten episodes for the conclusion I knew was coming.

So this gives you the basis for an opinion?

The OP basically said "Don't you think there was a lot going on at the end of DS9?" I said, yes, there was so much going on that I didn't think the ending I knew was coming would do the complicated plot line justice. So yes, knowing what was coming does give me the basis for an opinion - that opinion being, "Sorry, not interested in the disappointment."

 

[BennyRussel]

TiberiusMaximus you might want to check them out on a rainy weekend or when you have some time. For years, I refused to watch Voyagerbecause I didn't like the few episodes I had seen and had heard nothing but bad things about it. Now that I am watching it on Netflix - I think it's pretty good. I hate to see a Trek fan miss out on (what I believe) was a very entertaining and well done farewell arc to a great series.

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

TiberiusMaximus you might want to check them out on a rainy weekend or when you have some time. For years, I refused to watch Voyagerbecause I didn't like the few episodes I had seen and had heard nothing but bad things about it. Now that I am watching it on Netflix - I think it's pretty good. I hate to see a Trek fan miss out on (what I believe) was a very entertaining and well done farewell arc to a great series.

Like I told TheLobes, I just might do that some day soon. Thanks for the suggestion. Hey, it's all Trek. I'll probably enjoy parts of it, anyhow.

 

[Navaros]

DS9's S7 does have a problem with multiple plots, but that problem arises not because of the number of plots. The problem arises because the content of many of the plots is nonsensical.

They should have removed the "Dukat as a one dimensional caricature demon" plot, the "Pah-Wraith's are one dimensional evil demons" plot, and the "Dukat as a Bajoran farmer," plot and the "Ferengis turn into copies of humans" plot.

However, if they were able to develop multiple plots with worthwhile content (which the ones I have mentioned do not have), then they should have done so. Otherwise, sticking to the Dominion plot only would have been best.