Can we all agree that 31 had a huge roll in winning the war

[Rush Limborg]

S31 did help end the War, but they very nearly lost it too.

By slowly killing the founders they made a cornered, wounded animal of them. They made them more dangerous and desperate. The Breen came into the War, and who knows how many more would have come in if The Klingons hadn't been able to hold after the Dominion retook Chin'taka? Not to mentioned that if S31's plan had worked, the Jem'Hadar would have gone on a rampage lasting for what was it? A couple of weeks? Before they all died.

Oh, not necessarily.... I recall "The Ship", in which the Jem'Hadar force commited suicide en masse for failing to save the Founder.

Therefore...knowing that, I'd imagine 31 wagered the same thing would happen en masse were the Founders to die out thusly.

But those Jem'Hadar were still under the influence of the White.

Once the Founders are dead, there would be none left who know how to make the white. Those Augments Bashir helped came to the same conclusion. No white, Jem'Hadar go on rampage until they die out.

Except the white was being manufactured in the Alpha Quadrant, via factories referred to in that episode with the Jack Pack.

The Jem'Hadar would still have been Under The Influence when the founders died out--which would've been soon after WYLB.

 

[Vanyel]

Oh, not necessarily.... I recall "The Ship", in which the Jem'Hadar force commited suicide en masse for failing to save the Founder.

Therefore...knowing that, I'd imagine 31 wagered the same thing would happen en masse were the Founders to die out thusly.

But those Jem'Hadar were still under the influence of the White.

Once the Founders are dead, there would be none left who know how to make the white. Those Augments Bashir helped came to the same conclusion. No white, Jem'Hadar go on rampage until they die out.

Except the white was being manufactured in the Alpha Quadrant, via factories referred to in that episode with the Jack Pack.

The Jem'Hadar would still have been Under The Influence when the founders died out--which would've been soon after WYLB.

The factories were there, yes, but all the ingredients were not known. Bashir couldn't isolate all the compounds in the White, so with out a Founder to make sure the right ingredients were used, the factories couldn't make anything. The White would have run out after a time, leaving the entire AQ subject to random, vicious Jen'Hadar attacks.

There were more changelings in the AQ than just the Female Changeling. Once the war ended anyone of them could have continued the production of the white.

I also would be very surprised if the surrender didn't include demanding the discontinuing of breeding Jem'Hadar and possibly the formula for the White.

 

[blackzoid]

Why didn't they collapse the wormhole?

The same reason Starfleet didn't. Exploration...relations with the Bajorans...all that stuff.

Had the wormhole been collapsed...Starfleet (by demands from the Bajoran government) would have had to investigate why.

Someone would have gotten suspicious--more suspicious than a disease.

So what if they do? Is the secret of S31 more important than the millions of lives that bloodless method would have saved?

 

[Rush Limborg]

Again--Starfleet had a vested interest in keeping the wormhole.

Also...I doubt collapsing it would've worked. The Prophets had made it a point to keep it open in "Emissary", thanks to Sisko. I'd wager they'd have kept it open despite any attempts by mere mortals.

 

[Rush Limborg]

But those Jem'Hadar were still under the influence of the White.

Once the Founders are dead, there would be none left who know how to make the white. Those Augments Bashir helped came to the same conclusion. No white, Jem'Hadar go on rampage until they die out.

Except the white was being manufactured in the Alpha Quadrant, via factories referred to in that episode with the Jack Pack.

The Jem'Hadar would still have been Under The Influence when the founders died out--which would've been soon after WYLB.

The factories were there, yes, but all the ingredients were not known. Bashir couldn't isolate all the compounds in the White, so with out a Founder to make sure the right ingredients were used, the factories couldn't make anything. The White would have run out after a time, leaving the entire AQ subject to random, vicious Jen'Hadar attacks.

But you can't assume that the White would be depleted just as all the Founders die. They'd probably still be addicted during that time.

However, there is another theory....

There were more changelings in the AQ than just the Female Changeling. Once the war ended anyone of them could have continued the production of the white.

I also would be very surprised if the surrender didn't include demanding the discontinuing of breeding Jem'Hadar and possibly the formula for the White.

Your point here brings up something else--the cure gives the Allies a great advantage. The Founders have to get the cure--and to get it, they must surrender, and do such-and-such.

The fact that 31 had made a cure in the first place implies that it's quite possible that their plan was a bit more Machiavellian than simple "kill 'em all".

Kinda makes one wonder if "Extreme Measures" was all part of the plan....

 

[Hartzilla2007]

I remember a line in Ashes of Eden where Kirk said something along the lines of "If the federation can only survive by threats, bribery, treachery, deceit and murder, then it does not deserve to survive."

Well, I'd say to Kirk...well, two things:

1) "You're one to talk, Jimmy Boy."

2) "What's the alternative? I mean...by your line of reasoning..."

Um, you do realize that Kirk said that to an Admiral who was planning to slaughter a neutral population so he could harvest tissue from them to bribe federation officials to declare war on the Klingon Empire all to satisfy a personal vendetta against them right?

S31 did help end the War, but they very nearly lost it too.

By slowly killing the founders they made a cornered, wounded animal of them. They made them more dangerous and desperate. The Breen came into the War, and who knows how many more would have come in if The Klingons hadn't been able to hold after the Dominion retook Chin'taka? Not to mentioned that if S31's plan had worked, the Jem'Hadar would have gone on a rampage lasting for what was it? A couple of weeks? Before they all died.

Oh, not necessarily.... I recall "The Ship", in which the Jem'Hadar force commited suicide en masse for failing to save the Founder.

Therefore...knowing that, I'd imagine 31 wagered the same thing would happen en masse were the Founders to die out thusly.

But those Jem'Hadar were still under the influence of the White.

Once the Founders are dead, there would be none left who know how to make the white. Those Augments Bashir helped came to the same conclusion. No white, Jem'Hadar go on rampage until they die out.

Not to mention that seeing as Damar was able to convince Weyoun to kill Odo, whats to stop another ambitious Cardassian from convincing a Vorta to keep the Founders' deaths secret. I mean one of the things DS9 pointed out was that many in the Dominion had never even seen a Founder so its not like it would be hard to keep their deaths secret and as a result the war would still continue with the Cardassians possibly controling the whole thing.

 

[Rush Limborg]

I remember a line in Ashes of Eden where Kirk said something along the lines of "If the federation can only survive by threats, bribery, treachery, deceit and murder, then it does not deserve to survive."

Well, I'd say to Kirk...well, two things:

1) "You're one to talk, Jimmy Boy."

2) "What's the alternative? I mean...by your line of reasoning..."

Um, you do realize that Kirk said that to an Admiral who was planning to slaughter a neutral population so he could harvest tissue from them to bribe federation officials to declare war on the Klingon Empire all to satisfy a personal vendetta against them right?

I do. I also say--of all the arguments Kirk could've made...the one he picked was one of the worst.

Not to mention that seeing as Damar was able to convince Weyoun to kill Odo, whats to stop another ambitious Cardassian from convincing a Vorta to keep the Founders' deaths secret. I mean one of the things DS9 pointed out was that many in the Dominion had never even seen a Founder so its not like it would be hard to keep their deaths secret and as a result the war would still continue with the Cardassians possibly controling the whole thing.

Except that, as per the war, the Founders resolved to take a more active role. With that, the disease would be more difficult to hide.

 

[The Castellan]

S31 does give plausible deniability and set up fall guys for the elected officials. Elected officials who would come out as horrified at what S31 did. There would be a few hearings, possibly send some people to prison who "die" in prison.

Or some poor schmuck, like some new guy, they make into a fall guy.

And the problem with any of these type of organizations are not elected officials, they are merely there to look pretty to the public, it's the organizations with appointed leaders that are the big problem, since no one elected them, and can not be so easily kicked out of their position, we got that happening today with the CIA, FBI, FDA, FCC, etc.

And as one poster said, "fighting fire with fire" only shows how one is no better than the other side, if one side wants to be better than the other, one has to stick to one's morals and ethics and not become like the other guy, simply because it's the quick and easy way.

And I'm with Kirk, if something has to rely upon murder, threats of murder, deceit, bribery, and other things that would be considered despicable, it has no right to survive, and deserves anything that happens to them.

 

[Vanyel]

S31 does give plausible deniability and set up fall guys for the elected officials. Elected officials who would come out as horrified at what S31 did. There would be a few hearings, possibly send some people to prison who "die" in prison.

Or some poor schmuck, like some new guy, they make into a fall guy.

And the problem with any of these type of organizations are not elected officials, they are merely there to look pretty to the public, it's the organizations with appointed leaders that are the big problem, since no one elected them, and can not be so easily kicked out of their position, we got that happening today with the CIA, FBI, FDA, FCC, etc.

And as one poster said, "fighting fire with fire" only shows how one is no better than the other side, if one side wants to be better than the other, one has to stick to one's morals and ethics and not become like the other guy, simply because it's the quick and easy way.

And I'm with Kirk, if something has to rely upon murder, threats of murder, deceit, bribery, and other things that would be considered despicable, it has no right to survive, and deserves anything that happens to them.

I was the one who brought up "fighting fire with fire." The Federation knew that the Dominion had no qualms about using genocidal biological weapons.

Using, againg, WWII, as an example, the Americans learned on - I believe it was Okinawa - that the people of Japan would rather die than surrender. The believed the Allies were there to rape their women and have other evil thoughts against their people. Faced with that fact, Truman made the toughest decision any President, any World Leader, could make - to use atomic weapons against civilian targets. He and his staff believed it the only was after Okinawa (I believe the same thing happened at other islands but I can't be sure.)

The Dominion was genocidal against solids. In a fight where one side wants or may want you or parts of your population wiped out. You have to fight back with equal ruthlessness.

 

[Sjaddix]

The Founders were only genocidal after they caught that disease. They did not wipe out all life in their Quadrant despite having pretty much complete control. They just made themselves in Empire. So clearly they were not totally genocidal against solids.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

While I don't think we ever heard of such, I do make the assumption that the Federation has a civilian intelligent directorate separation from Starfleet Intelligence.

In ST III, the official who takes McCoy into custody in the bar identifies himself as being from "Federation Security". So that may be just what you mean.

 

[Vanyel]

The Founders were only genocidal after they caught that disease. They did not wipe out all life in their Quadrant despite having pretty much complete control. They just made themselves in Empire. So clearly they were not totally genocidal against solids.

DS9's The Quickening would disagree with you. Genocidal, IMO, has no degrees. If you can be genocidal to one race or State or planet, then you are a genocidal State. No one is safe from you, because you have no qualms against using genocide.

And yes, that would make the Federation a genocidal State as well. Just like the USA has to live with the black mark of being the only country - to date and hopefully forever - to use atomic weapons, the Federation has to live with the black mark of using a bio weapon for genocide.

 

[Timo]

DS9's The Quickening would disagree with you. Genocidal, IMO, has no degrees.

Curiously enough, "The Quickening" does the seemingly impossible and graduates genocide.

Remember how the bioweapon in the episode was engineered not to kill, but to torture? The victims were free to breed and perpetuate their species, and would only die after guaranteeing the suffering of the next generation. Clearly, with a little bit of engineering ingenuity, you can have "aggravated genocide" or "mitigated genocide" or "extended genocide" or "partial genocide". Or then you can get really innovative.

In the Star Trek playground, with hundreds or thousands of genuses, genocide is almost mundane anyway. Starfleet has always been willing to practice it, starting slow with a one-individual genus in "Man Trap" and then expanding to the slaughter of hundreds of millions in "A Taste of Armageddon". It doesn't sound plausible that any Trek civilization could fault the Federation for this practice, or that any civilization could refrain from practicing without going all Halkan and isolating itself from the universe.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[blackzoid]

So we are all agreed than? The Federation in practice is no better than the Dominion?

 

[Timo]

It's not qualitatively different. It's quantity that matters. Everybody sins, but if you sin less than thy neighbor, you are a saint.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[blackzoid]

No. You are still a sinner. You are just not as bad as your neighbours. Genocide is genocide. (especially pointless genocide when there are viable blood-less alternatives)

There are saints out there. Bajorans probably would be in that catagory.

 

[Timo]

All saints sin. If they didn't, they'd be challenging Christ, which is a sin.

"Morals" is a concept based on the relativity of sinning. There always is somebody ready to throw the first stone, somebody better than you. And every court believes that crimes come in degrees, too: for some murders, you get more jail time than for others.

Genocide is genocide. (especially pointless genocide when there are viable blood-less alternatives)

See? You yourself already divide genocide into categories!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[blackzoid]

Its strange though. You have not once responded to my assertion that S31 would have prevented the war by simply collapsing the wormhole.
They had two choices in season 4: infect Odo with the genocidal virus or collapse the womrhole.

Do you think they (and by extension the Federation) made the right choice? As far as relativity of sinning goes anyway.

 

[Timo]

You have not once responded to my assertion that S31 would have prevented the war by simply collapsing the wormhole.

Who is "you"?

I for one am not interested in that aspect of things. Anything and everything could be prevented or instigated with the right amount of clairvoyance and omnipotence, neither of which mankind possesses. For us, things happen, and then we cope. If S31 tries to play the classic Secret Society of the Wise game where clairvoyance and omnipotence are the unfortunate lot of the anointed, let them have their deluded fun. Secret societies like that never achieved anything much.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[blackzoid]

Not to put words in your mouth but are you saying that you are not interested in the non-genocidal option?

My assertion is simple: Ds9 showed in episodes Past Prologue and Visionary that the wormhole is vulnerable. Theres nothing omnipetant about the collapsing of it. I imagine it was harder for S31 to engineer the virus than simply go to Ds9 and use something like what was used in those episodes to close the womhole. By season 4 S31 could see that the Dominion was a major threat. Closing the womhole is the cleanest way to solve the problem. No need to sink the Federation to the Dominion's level by killing an entire race.