Can we all agree that 31 had a huge roll in winning the war
- Thread starter Photon
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That is one of the facets that makes it all so interesting. As the play progresses you find yourself asking so many questions and looking at every nuance of answer to see which road the story is going to go. The journey is great as long as the result isn't cheapened.
What I found interesting about the original series was (as I recall) they never identified who "The Secretary" was who would disavow their activities.
I assumed as a child that it was the secretary of state. But you never really knew. Having them be under the secretary of agrowculture would be a effective means of concealing their existence. Just need somewhere to funnel their funding through.
The Secretary? Dang...must have been too long since I've seen it. I'd always learned it as "the CIA"....
Well, I'd think it'd be Defense--nowadays, Homeland Security--but like you said...for all we know, it's HHS!
But I'm reasonably sure the "idea" was that the IMF was the "secret" black-ops devision for the CIA--much like 31 is supposed to be the secret, black-ops division of Starfleet Intelligence.
Well, I'd think it'd be Defense--nowadays, Homeland Security--but like you said...for all we know, it's HHS!
But I'm reasonably sure the "idea" was that the IMF was the "secret" black-ops devision for the CIA--much like 31 is supposed to be the secret, black-ops division of Starfleet Intelligence.
S31, in essence, won the war for the Feds. Which does not at all seem to be the lesson the writers wanted us to take away from the story, but if so, they should have written a different story. 
Well except for the fact that they aren't. there a bunch of terrorists who claim to act in the federations' best interest but are unaccountable to anyone.
Their more like Mass Effect's Cerberus except Cerberus has better resources, a cooler leader, and don't wast time screwing with a non-important Starfleet officer because their most visible member is an idiot.
If the idea was to have S31 be the bad guys, well too late because the Dominion and the Cardassians already occupied that position. S31 wasn't the one killing Starfleet personnel by the hundreds of thousands, these are the heroes that have been held up to the audience for years, and they're being butchered. S31 didn't invade Laxanna's home world, where we once watched Will and Deanna having a picnic.
The fact that apparently the Federation needed a organization like S31 to carry out the activities that S31 did, speaks ill of both Starfleet and Starfleet intelligence.
If the Federation's governace didn't have a S31, why didn't they?
And the fact S31 seemed to have started working toward victory, prior to the beginning of the actual shooting war, speaks to their organizations forethought. S31 for better or worst saved countless live within Starfleet, the Federation's membership, and the allies fighting the Dominion. If you wait until the enemies slave soldiers are casually sunning themselves on the lawn in front of your capital...
... it might be a little too late to begin working on "The Plan."
Yevetha
Commodore
S31, in essence, won the war for the Feds. Which does not at all seem to be the lesson the writers wanted us to take away from the story, but if so, they should have written a different story.
not really Sisko won the war, section provided an assist. without wormhole traffic being blocked by the prophets it would have been an easy win for changelings.
I don't think anyone is saying S31 did it all by themselves, but per the OP they did have a huge role.
(unless he really meant "roll")
Actually you seem to be saying that the Prophets won the war.
Dunno, but I always have a deep hatred for black ops, shadow organizations, or ones that follow their own rules and disregard all the others. It's like a cause justifying the means, but I never believed in that. Plus I was never supportive of such secret entities that are above and beyond the laws and ideals people hold dear, and barely no one knowing of it. Anything with that much power is too dangerous.....if I was in the middle of the Dominion War in Starfleet, I'd be more worried about Section 31 than the Dominion or the Cardasians.
I remember a line in Ashes of Eden where Kirk said something along the lines of "If the federation can only survive by threats, bribery, treachery, deceit and murder, then it does not deserve to survive."
I remember a line in Ashes of Eden where Kirk said something along the lines of "If the federation can only survive by threats, bribery, treachery, deceit and murder, then it does not deserve to survive."
I don't think anyone is saying S31 did it all by themselves, but per the OP they did have a huge role.
(unless he really meant "roll")
Actually you seem to be saying that the Prophets won the war.
Not Really. They don't help because they give a crap about Bajorans or who wins the war. They help simply because they need Sisko alive. No Sisko, No Prophets helping.
Well, I'd say to Kirk...well, two things:
1) "You're one to talk, Jimmy Boy."
2) "What's the alternative? I mean...by your line of reasoning..."
I never associate Kirk with those black uniformed knuckle draggers who respond to others in the form of rifle butts who are mindlessly obedient to their shadow organization....they're probably the type who'll have no problem killing innocents or using excessive force, and have a kick doing it.
And for the other, I say solve the problem through conventional, legal means. I am sure there's a whole set of rules in warfare for Starfleet and the Federation, and I am sure Section 31 simply used that rulebook for toilet paper or something. To use entities like Section 31, makes the Federation no better than the ones trying to destroy it.
S31 does give plausible deniability and set up fall guys for the elected officials. Elected officials who would come out as horrified at what S31 did. There would be a few hearings, possibly send some people to prison who "die" in prison.
All the while the higher ups of S31, go about their business. S31 is like a starfish, it'll lose one arm after the War, but it'll grow back.
S31 did help end the War, but they very nearly lost it too.
By slowly killing the founders they made a cornered, wounded animal of them. They made them more dangerous and desperate. The Breen came into the War, and who knows how many more would have come in if The Klingons hadn't been able to hold after the Dominion retook Chin'taka? Not to mentioned that if S31's plan had worked, the Jem'Hadar would have gone on a rampage lasting for what was it? A couple of weeks? Before they all died.
Sometimes, you have to fight fire with fire. The Dominion was proven to be genocidal. Weyoun talked of killing the population of Earth like it was an everyday thing.
S31 played a dangerous game and luckily won.
Oh, not necessarily.... I recall "The Ship", in which the Jem'Hadar force commited suicide en masse for failing to save the Founder.
Therefore...knowing that, I'd imagine 31 wagered the same thing would happen en masse were the Founders to die out thusly.
But those Jem'Hadar were still under the influence of the White.
Once the Founders are dead, there would be none left who know how to make the white. Those Augments Bashir helped came to the same conclusion. No white, Jem'Hadar go on rampage until they die out.
S31 started the process of genocide before any of that happened. S31 could have collapsed the wormhole. Why did they not do that?
And the fact S31 seemed to have started working toward victory, prior to the beginning of the actual shooting war, speaks to their organizations forethought. S31 for better or worst saved countless live within Starfleet, the Federation's membership, and the allies fighting the Dominion. If you wait until the enemies slave soldiers are casually sunning themselves on the lawn in front of your capital...
... it might be a little too late to begin working on "The Plan."
S31 could have saved every life in the Dominion war by collpasing the wormhole instead of unilaterally attempting genocide. Why did they not do that?
S31 are certainly not saints. If the concept that they are heroes is based on the number of Federation lives they saved, well than they are incompetant heroes because they did not do the obvious (and much more moral)thing to save as many lives as possible.
Whereas if they wanted to eliminate the Dominion in order to Conquer/Control the Gamma Quadrant for the Federation, well that has a bit more evidence going for it.
"And the fact S31 seemed to have started working toward victory, prior to the beginning of the actual shooting war, speaks to their organizations forethought"
Indeed, one must wonder exactly what kind of "victory" were S31 working towards?
Why didn't they collapse the wormhole?
The same reason Starfleet didn't. Exploration...relations with the Bajorans...all that stuff.
Had the wormhole been collapsed...Starfleet (by demands from the Bajoran government) would have had to investigate why.
Someone would have gotten suspicious--more suspicious than a disease.
The same reason Starfleet didn't. Exploration...relations with the Bajorans...all that stuff.
Had the wormhole been collapsed...Starfleet (by demands from the Bajoran government) would have had to investigate why.
Someone would have gotten suspicious--more suspicious than a disease.
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