Star Trek and Homosexuality

[The Castellan]

Nightdiamond, I am not surprised with a lot of closed minded folks watching Trek. Hell, I got chewed up rather thoroughly with my thread regarding UFOs, alien life, and other items of the paranormal. To me, those people are fine if things happen in an artificial, fictitious universe, bot not in a real one. It's akin here, where it's "Fine, but don't let it be on MY television!" Or they try to make some counter argument like with the Dax kiss.

Take Cassy, and her wife, Luna, here.

This one will mess with the closed minded folks since it can be both hetro and homosexual.....in that Cassy biologically a male, (aka she's a girl, but has male genitals), and homo, since while she is a 'male' she's still a girl, and sex and gender are two different things, plus Cassy has been with one or two males who think of themselves as hetro, so I'd like to see the closed minded, Archie Bunker types try and explain this one.

Trek needs to cross more lines, I think. They did it with Kirk and Uhura kissing, pissed off most of the Southern United States, so let's find some more groups to piss off, says myself.

Personally, I would not mind having the bed with MU Kira....since she's game for many things.

 

[Destructor]

Yeah as someone mentioned above, you couldn't really create a character that was 'like Riker/Kirk, only gay', because that plays directly into the stereotype of the gay man as sexually voracious. It'd be like having a black character who loves fried chicken and is awesome at basketball- those have become such cliches about black characters that it'd SEEM offensive, even if you were in fact just treating the gay character equally.

 

[Amaris]

But to be fair to Trek, it can be argue that the " Dax kiss" was the scene some fans have been waiting for. A kiss between two same sex people without making an issue of it within the episode.

It always puzzles me how people argue that the "Dax kiss" is not a "lesbian kiss" and how it were actually the heterosexual symbionts doing the kissing.

Technically speaking, the correct label would be "bisexual kiss" I guess. But who cares? We got to see two sane women care for each other and kiss in a very passionate way, and nobody in that episode made a fuss about it. It was exactly what I had been waiting for.

Fair point. But I think this is more what some people are looking for:

It's so engrained into the national psyche to find this repulsive that no producer would take it on. Having a kid brother who is gay and having many friends in theater, this doesn't shock me. Trek led the charge in so many ways on the progressive front, that I think it's fair to say they were weak on the issue of homosexuality.

That doesn't change the fact that I freaking love all Trek, from ToS to Enterprise.

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*right click* *save*

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[The Castellan]

Yeah as someone mentioned above, you couldn't really create a character that was 'like Riker/Kirk, only gay', because that plays directly into the stereotype of the gay man as sexually voracious. It'd be like having a black character who loves fried chicken and is awesome at basketball- those have become such cliches about black characters that it'd SEEM offensive, even if you were in fact just treating the gay character equally.

Some guy folks don't fit any cliche's. John Barrowman tried to go for a role of the gay fellow in "Will and Grace" but was rejected because he "felt too straight". He's the sorta who likes cars and watches football.

Making any character, regardless of sexuality, just need to be made as the writer sees fit. If it's about a Klingon who likes to eat roast beef, plays shuffleboard and trying to breed pet rocks, go for it.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Nightdiamond, I am not surprised with a lot of closed minded folks watching Trek. Hell, I got chewed up rather thoroughly with my thread regarding UFOs, alien life, and other items of the paranormal.

So therefore it's ok to fantasize about aliens and supernatural beings in a tv show, but to speculate about in real life, no way!
So strange.... Trek pretty much has said religion is akin to superstition and that hasn't p*ssed anyone off after all this time?

This one will mess with the closed minded folks since it can be both hetro and homosexual.....in that Cassy biologically a male, (aka she's a girl, but has male genitals), and homo, since while she is a 'male' she's still a girl

This is interesting...remember that speech that Quark gave Odo in Chimera?.

Trek needs to cross more lines, I think. They did it with Kirk and Uhura kissing, pissed off most of the Southern United States, so let's find some more groups to piss off, says myself.

Agreed. If Trek is to survive on tv they may have to adapt to a new formula that is less repressed or limited.
They don't have to force anything down the fans throat (no puns, no puns) and neither should the fans to them.

There is too much competition from other shows that have already pushed the envelope.

The shows that did this, like on cable, are enjoying huge ratings, not because they show explicit smut all the time, but the storylines are new and different and the fans have to watch each week.

The kiss in DS9 is NOTHING compared to the stuff they show in Japanese anime (which airs on regular television)

 

[The Castellan]

Nightdiamond, I am not surprised with a lot of closed minded folks watching Trek. Hell, I got chewed up rather thoroughly with my thread regarding UFOs, alien life, and other items of the paranormal.

So therefore it's ok to fantasize about aliens and supernatural beings in a tv show, but to speculate about in real life, no way!
So strange.... Trek pretty much has said religion is akin to superstition and that hasn't p*ssed anyone off after all this time?

This one will mess with the closed minded folks since it can be both hetro and homosexual.....in that Cassy biologically a male, (aka she's a girl, but has male genitals), and homo, since while she is a 'male' she's still a girl

This is interesting...remember that speech that Quark gave Odo in Chimera?.

Trek needs to cross more lines, I think. They did it with Kirk and Uhura kissing, pissed off most of the Southern United States, so let's find some more groups to piss off, says myself.

Agreed. If Trek is to survive on tv they may have to adapt to a new formula that is less repressed or limited.
They don't have to force anything down the fans throat (no puns, no puns) and neither should the fans to them.

There is too much competition from other shows that have already pushed the envelope.

The shows that did this, like on cable, are enjoying huge ratings, not because they show explicit smut all the time, but the storylines are new and different and the fans have to watch each week.

The kiss in DS9 is NOTHING compared to the stuff they show in Japanese anime (which airs on regular television)

Yesh. Cross more lines. And in my own Trek crossovers I do put in stuff like magic, mysticism and religious related stuff, since I feel that as a species, man has to have a scientific, yet spiritual balance, since one without the other is nothing.

And yes, you won't believe the amount of tinfoil hat jokes or names like conspiracy quack when even hinting at alien life, or that we've been visited, and maybe influenced by their visitations in the distant past, rather than say the typical, "There is nothing out there!" or "If they are out there, we'll never see them because they are so far away and because we can't go faster than light, they can't either" or the much tired "if they were out there, they'd land on the white house lawn". Even Roddenberry hinted to this in "Who Mourns for Adonis" with Apollo and the other gods influencing ancient Greece or the guy who was Davinchi and other influential people in human history, and also acknowledged cover ups regarding UFO's in Tomorrow is Yesterday. Personally, I think many directors, producers, and writers know what's going on and are trying to tell us something.

I have not seen much DS9 (never got the chance to watch it much), so I don't know what Quark told Odo. I also made Cassy a 'male' or 'chick with a dick' to also really test the readers/watchers, and see if they can accept such a concept or still find her attractive/desirable despite having a pole between her legs instead of a hole.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v176/Primacron/Hover7.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v176/Primacron/Travel5.jpg
I am pondering Cassy also having a fling with Vanda, the Andorian girl of the crew (both Cassy and Luna have a poly relationship, since both don't get to see each other for a long time, so they both get to see someone on the side...plus I've gotten requests for naughty images of Vanda )

And as a person who loves anime, if I can get my own Trek comic going, it's going to be an anime take on Trek, sweat drops, fall overs, colorful hair and glomping and all.

~Gives Night Diamond a cookie~

 

[Sci]

And yes, you won't believe the amount of tinfoil hat jokes or names like conspiracy quack when even hinting at alien life, or that we've been visited, and maybe influenced by their visitations in the distant past,

Castellan, demanding that there be reliable empirical evidence that something has happened or that something exists is not the same thing as being closed-minded about the possibility. Science is a process, not a belief system.

 

[The Castellan]

And yes, you won't believe the amount of tinfoil hat jokes or names like conspiracy quack when even hinting at alien life, or that we've been visited, and maybe influenced by their visitations in the distant past,

Castellan, demanding that there be reliable empirical evidence that something has happened or that something exists is not the same thing as being closed-minded about the possibility. Science is a process, not a belief system.

Well, name calling or posting cheesy pictures or captions are not a process, either, but it does not stop them now, does it?
Also, in my own experiences, a majority of the so-called scientific community is as, if not more, dogmatic than the religious community, with more concerns of their egotism and staying 'correct' than anything else. Especially since many of them will still deny things, and will only listen to those in positions of some type of authority, rather then their own eyes, and the evidence in front of them. Galileo and Copernicus were looked upon the same way, to the point where they got arrested, and no one would listen to them, despite the evidence right in front of everyone's eyes. So, I hold to the idea that the scientific community is just as egotistic as the organized religious community. Hell, in the infamous Brookings Report, which I hate with extreme passion, on page 215, if I remember right, it even said that, should we make contact, engineers and scientists would be the most devastated due to no longer being the top masters over nature and matter. And believe me, many scientists I know are more arrogant than rock stars.

 

[Sci]

And yes, you won't believe the amount of tinfoil hat jokes or names like conspiracy quack when even hinting at alien life, or that we've been visited, and maybe influenced by their visitations in the distant past,

Castellan, demanding that there be reliable empirical evidence that something has happened or that something exists is not the same thing as being closed-minded about the possibility. Science is a process, not a belief system.

Well, name calling or posting cheesy pictures or captions are not a process, either, but it does not stop them now, does it?
Also, in my own experiences, a majority of the so-called scientific community is as, if not more, dogmatic than the religious community, with more concerns of their egotism and staying 'correct' than anything else. Especially since many of them will still deny things, and will only listen to those in positions of some type of authority, rather then their own eyes, and the evidence in front of them. Galileo and Copernicus were looked upon the same way, to the point where they got arrested, and no one would listen to them, despite the evidence right in front of everyone's eyes. So, I hold to the idea that the scientific community is just as egotistic as the organized religious community. Hell, in the infamous Brookings Report, which I hate with extreme passion, on page 215, if I remember right, it even said that, should we make contact, engineers and scientists would be the most devastated due to no longer being the top masters over nature and matter. And believe me, many scientists I know are more arrogant than rock stars.

If you have reliable empirical evidence for the things you're supposing happened, I'd be happy to see it. Otherwise, long ad hominem attacks do not support your position.

 

[YARN]

Take Cassy, and her wife, Luna, here.

This one will mess with the closed minded folks since it can be both hetro and homosexual.....in that Cassy biologically a male, (aka she's a girl, but has male genitals), and homo, since while she is a 'male' she's still a girl, and sex and gender are two different things, plus Cassy has been with one or two males who think of themselves as hetro, so I'd like to see the closed minded, Archie Bunker types try and explain this one.

No, what you have there is a creepy cat-eared cgi image feeding another lifeless computer image a strawberry. What's even creepier is that you are referring to this image as if it depicts a real couple.

You might as well post a picture of a furry and describe it's sexual organs and preferences to "mess" with people.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I think The Castellen is just saying people are people. Full of diversity whether it's beliefs in science, religion, aliens or whether it's shifting biologies, sexual preference, social constructs. In tv land TPTB see only the pieces, not the people underneath so what should be a story about two people becomes a story about two girls pashing.

 

[USS KG5]

The TV shows really dropped the ball. TPTB were far more interested in "playing it safe" and making as much money as possible than to"risk" adding a gay character that might upset some backward hicks and bible thumpers.

They do have rather a lot of those in America though. They are also a very powerful lobby. Not surprising Berman ran scared when it was his job to guide trek to $$$ not controversy.

When Trek did do gay storylines, like in Rejoined in DS9, it did cause an enormous fuss.

 

[The Castellan]

Lobbys need to go.

 

[Sector 7]

To those who have said that it is difficult to write scenes for gay characters, I say look to those scenes which depict "At Home with the O'Briens". My scene would have a male gay couple discussing the Red Alert situation over dinner or in the living room. One is a non-bridge science or engineering officer expressing his worry/fear for his husband who is a bridge/landing party officer. This is a topic which is universal for all military families, shows the gay couple in a "normal" family relationship and is relevant to the storyline of a dangerous anomaly/alien/situation.

It really isn't difficult to write for gay characters. We share many of the same concerns as hetero characters. IMHO, this is the way to introduce gay characters in Star Trek. No big deal, no pride parades, no reason for right wing phone calls... just a loving couple sharing the same stress as any other couple.

While Modern Family goes over the top for laughs, they DO depict a gay family sharing the same stress as any other family. Star Trek should do no less in dealing with gay characters.

I am gay. I have never walked in a parade (except in military uniform). I like NASCAR [Go #24!], Carolina Panthers football, ACC basketball [If God is a not Tarheel, why is the sky Carolina Blue?], raised a family, paid my bills and taxes... all the things regular folks do every day. I support marriage equality, decry discrimination in all its forms, vote in all elections and have a personal relationship with GOD. It would give me deep, heartfelt satisfaction to know that my Star Trek franchise includes me in its universe.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Quark: We humanoids are the product of millions of years of evolution. Our ancestors learned the hard way that what you don't know might kill you.

They wouldn't have survived if they hadn't jumped back when they encountered a snake coiled in the muck. And now millions of years later, that instinct is still there.

It's genetic. Our tolerance for other lifeforms doesn't extend
beyond the two arm, two leg variety. I hate to break it to
you, but when you're in your natural state, you're more than our poor old genes can handle.

Watch your step, Odo. We're at war with your people. This is no time for a changeling pride demonstration on the Promenade.

Quark can say some insight stuff sometimes

 

[Deks]

Except that I kinda like Odo in his 'natural' state.
Quark was full of it if you ask me and was mostly making a generalization.
Humans in Trek were supposed to be beyond such silly prejudice exactly because they have to expect a possibility of life that doesn't resemble the humanoid form and whatnot.

Janeway for example showed open-mindedness about that dark-matter entity that tried to communicate with them, only to be shot by a paranoid crewman who had no field experience (and for a scientist, he surely handled that situation poorly).
I can understand caution (and perhaps initial level of fear even) when dealing with new life-forms... but that was a very poor display.

 

[The Castellan]

Except that I kinda like Odo in his 'natural' state.
Quark was full of it if you ask me and was mostly making a generalization.
Humans in Trek were supposed to be beyond such silly prejudice exactly because they have to expect a possibility of life that doesn't resemble the humanoid form and whatnot.

Janeway for example showed open-mindedness about that dark-matter entity that tried to communicate with them, only to be shot by a paranoid crewman who had no field experience (and for a scientist, he surely handled that situation poorly).
I can understand caution (and perhaps initial level of fear even) when dealing with new life-forms... but that was a very poor display.

I digged he was a scientist, since it shows they are not the perfect folks some people think of them as.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

When Trek did do gay storylines, like in Rejoined in DS9, it did cause an enormous fuss.

Did it? What was the fuss/response?

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

When Trek did do gay storylines, like in Rejoined in DS9, it did cause an enormous fuss.

Did it? What was the fuss/response?

On the boxset I have, Terry Farrell said that Avery Brooks (who directed the episode) focused on the fact that they couldn't be together because of the Symbionts previous relationship, not because they were both women.

I remember at the time before the episode aired ('came out' as it were ) that there was a lot of hype about the same sex kiss. Its things like that that annoy me, the media didn't whip everything up when Riker got his leg over.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

It really isn't difficult to write for gay characters. We share many of the same concerns as hetero characters. IMHO, this is the way to introduce gay characters in Star Trek. No big deal, no pride parades, no reason for right wing phone calls... just a loving couple sharing the same stress as any other couple.

Exactly as it should be done. When (and I'm not saying 'if') a gay character is included, before the series is released the creators, writers, actor, etc should say nothing about the character being gay, so that it isn't made a big thing.

Instead have a scene where they are shown to have a normal life with someone they love, whilst also following their career and doing their duty.