Tuvok: the only adult on Voyager

[IntrepidMan]

Returning to the OP...

As far as Tuvok. I found he could be very immature in his own way. The fact he was a senior officer being groomed to one day be a captain, he showed great selfishness when it came to many of the emotional issues when dealing with the crew. Many times Janeway had to order him to attend ships functions because its expected of senior officers. It reflects badly on the captain if her chief of security is unwilling to associate with his staff for moral support.
He also showed poor diplomatic skills when it came to dealing with Neelix. Nobody really liked Neelix when he first joined the crew but Janeway, yet they all were polite to him except Tuvok. Not very mature.

I wouldn't call Tuvok selfish for behaving this way. He is just not very gregarious and does not like spending his free time with the rest of the crew. And I can't say I blame him--I wouldn't want to socialize with Paris, Kim, or Neelix myself. In fact I would probably avoid them, just like Tuvok does. Just like Worf, come to think of it. Do you think Work is selfish, or that his behavior reflects poorly on Picard or Sisko? No--he just likes to be left alone.

And I would argue that Tuvok is there for moral support when someone needs it. I can't name the episodes off the top of my head, but I'm pretty sure there are moments when Tuvok bonds with Neelix and helps out others, like B'Lanna, with meditation, etc.

He also offers council to Chakotay and generally treats him with respect. In fact, I would argue that he treats Chakotay better than Chakotay treats him. What does that say about his level of maturity?

Paris & Kim aren't any different than more than half us here.

I know--that's my problem with the characters. I guess I just don't like it when grown men act like teenage boys.

 

[exodus]

Returning to the OP...

As far as Tuvok. I found he could be very immature in his own way. The fact he was a senior officer being groomed to one day be a captain, he showed great selfishness when it came to many of the emotional issues when dealing with the crew. Many times Janeway had to order him to attend ships functions because its expected of senior officers. It reflects badly on the captain if her chief of security is unwilling to associate with his staff for moral support.
He also showed poor diplomatic skills when it came to dealing with Neelix. Nobody really liked Neelix when he first joined the crew but Janeway, yet they all were polite to him except Tuvok. Not very mature.

I wouldn't call Tuvok selfish for behaving this way. He is just not very gregarious and does not like spending his free time with the rest of the crew. And I can't say I blame him--I wouldn't want to socialize with Paris, Kim, or Neelix myself. In fact I would probably avoid them, just like Tuvok does. Just like Worf, come to think of it. Do you think Work is selfish, or that his behavior reflects poorly on Picard or Sisko? No--he just likes to be left alone.

Yes, Worf is being selfish and Sisko called Worf on it in "Rules of Engagement". The crew was having a celebration and Worf didn't want to attend. Sisko told Worf that wearing the rank of command, that you were expected to put on a good face and show up to social events to give your crew moral support because that's what expected of a officer in a command position, even if it's the last thing you want to do.. Janeway called Tuvok out during "Alter Ego" for the same reason. Being that Tuvok is nearly 100 and a professor at the Academy, Janeway never should of had to remind him of this fact.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I bet they don't have to do that kind of stuff on Vulcan ships. As usual the Federation expects human values to be the ones everyone puts themselves out for.

 

[exodus]

I bet they don't have to do that kind of stuff on Vulcan ships. As usual the Federation expects human values to be the ones everyone puts themselves out for.

Excellent point.

 

[The Overlord]

Starfleet is only a military organization when the mission requires it. And from what I know of my military friends, yes, acting like a juvenile idiot is sometimes exactly what happens. It's not like they do it while they're in the middle of a crisis. Voyager isn't just their place of work; it's their home.

Just because Star Fleet isn't a military organization doesn't mean its not an organization that doesn't demand professionalism.

If some alien diplomat was visiting and some star Fleet officer thought it would funny to throw a drink in his face, I would think that person would be punished for such behavior. Also if some ensign decided to wear an "I'm with stupid t-shirt" I think he would he sent back to quarters to change.

There times where Tuvok comes across as only the sane person on the ship. Harry Kim is the worse offender, he really comes off as a simpering man child. He never really developed into a good seasoned officer, he managed to stay a green ensign for 7 years. Frankly there should been episode where he proves himself, saves the ship and gets a promotion, that would have shown more character growth then him remaining a green ensign for 7 years.

 

[DeepSpaceWine]

Tuvok is chronologically the oldest person on that ship though in relative age, he's only the 2nd oldest. The oldest is the old gray-haired black dude in the blue uniform who was always seen in the mess hall (semi-retired?) between something like "Parturition" and right before "The Killing Game". Once you notice him, it's quite hard to not notice him in subsequent episodes.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I always notice him too. There should be more visibly older humans on starships. There were, iirc, several in ST:XI on the Kelvin.

 

[Thorius]

Apparently adolescence is getting longer with people not taking on an adult life to they get past 25 sometimes. Umpteen years in college, bad economy keeps you living with parents etc..

On the other hand, Star Trek regularly portrays 8 and 9 year old children studying calculus, programming, engineering, at levels which would be good for most 2nd or 3rd year undergrad students (approx age 20) for contemporary humans. In the Star Trek universe, human mental development would seem to be about twice as rapid.

I mean, you see occasional exceptional students even right now in the real world, but they are truly the exception, not the rule, whereas in Trek, they seem to be pretty much the "normal" kids.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Apparently adolescence is getting longer with people not taking on an adult life to they get past 25 sometimes. Umpteen years in college, bad economy keeps you living with parents etc..

On the other hand, Star Trek regularly portrays 8 and 9 year old children studying calculus, programming, engineering, at levels which would be good for most 2nd or 3rd year undergrad students (approx age 20) for contemporary humans. In the Star Trek universe, human mental development would seem to be about twice as rapid.

I mean, you see occasional exceptional students even right now in the real world, but they are truly the exception, not the rule, whereas in Trek, they seem to be pretty much the "normal" kids.

Ever see very early paintings of Mary and baby Jesus where baby Jesus looks like a gnarly adult? Apparently people actually had a hard time painting infants faces accurately so just made them little adults. I think Trek has the same problem, can't write kids so just make them all mini-adults and be done with it.

 

[exodus]

Just because Star Fleet isn't a military organization doesn't mean its not an organization that doesn't demand professionalism.

From what I'm aware the military was formed to keep the peace in hostile situations, not to advocate war. If that still holds true, then Starfleet is a military type institution. Starfleet officers may be scientist and explorers but you can't graduate from Starfleet Academy without combat training. Even the medical staff id trained to use weapons and hand to hand combat. Plus from what we've scene, officers like Riker, Worf, Sisko & Tuvok have little to no scientific knowledge but have tactical experience.

If some alien diplomat was visiting and some star Fleet officer thought it would funny to throw a drink in his face, I would think that person would be punished for such behavior. Also if some ensign decided to wear an "I'm with stupid t-shirt" I think he would he sent back to quarters to change.

Nobody ever look it that far.
Tom & Harry were goofs but they only pulled pranks on their fellow crewmen, during their off hours and never when any alien ambassador on board.
They were goofs, not stupid.
You can't punish someone for what they do on their off time unless It breaks some rule. Colleges and the military approve of hazing and pranks as long as it doesn't violate someones race, religion or sexual orientation.

 

[IntrepidMan]

I bet they don't have to do that kind of stuff on Vulcan ships. As usual the Federation expects human values to be the ones everyone puts themselves out for.

I never bought the idea that Vulcans are so anti-social and so full of themselves. DS9, for example, portrayed Vulcans who were so unbelievably contemptuous that they were obviously only meant to serve as foils for the crew--like Solok in "Take Me Out to the Holosuite." I can't believe that any Vulcan who joined Starfleet would act in that way.

The Vulcan captain of the Saratoga during Wolf 359 is much more believable. He's only on screen for a fraction of a minute and has maybe one line of dialogue, but he doesn't strike me as nearly so cold and distant as Vulcans are so often portrayed. And as the captain of a diverse crew, he obviously knew how to relate well to other species, humans included.

The oldest is the old gray-haired black dude in the blue uniform who was always seen in the mess hall (semi-retired?) between something like "Parturition" and right before "The Killing Game". Once you notice him, it's quite hard to not notice him in subsequent episodes.

Isn't it interesting how many regular background characters there are that we never notice but appear in multiple episodes and seasons? Some of them, like Ayala, have a name and may even utter a line of dialogue, but most of them have no dialogue and the actors are not credited. And yet if you look closely, you see them again and again. Memory Alpha keeps track of them and even has background stories for some!

Nobody ever look it that far.
Tom & Harry were goofs but they only pulled pranks on their fellow crewmen, during their off hours and never when any alien ambassador on board.
They were goofs, not stupid.

Yeah, but they do act immaturely around diplomats, ambassadors, etc. For example, in "30 Days" Paris is out of line when he accuses the water world aliens of destroying the ecosystem during a meeting on Voyager. We may sympathize with his beliefs, but as a junior officer he should keep his mouth shut and express his reservations to Janeway privately. Acting as he does, he embarrasses Janeway and only makes the aliens mad.

There times where Tuvok comes across as only the sane person on the ship. Harry Kim is the worse offender, he really comes off as a simpering man child. He never really developed into a good seasoned officer, he managed to stay a green ensign for 7 years. Frankly there should been episode where he proves himself, saves the ship and gets a promotion, that would have shown more character growth then him remaining a green ensign for 7 years.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I bet they don't have to do that kind of stuff on Vulcan ships. As usual the Federation expects human values to be the ones everyone puts themselves out for.

I never bought the idea that Vulcans are so anti-social and so full of themselves. DS9, for example, portrayed Vulcans who were so unbelievably contemptuous that they were obviously only meant to serve as foils for the crew--like Solok in "Take Me Out to the Holosuite." I can't believe that any Vulcan who joined Starfleet would act in that way.

I can. All you need is a race where all the social grease we take for granted as humans does not exist and where it is seen as evidence of being shallow, dumb or weak. Just like Klingon mess halls have no need for human standards of cleanliness perhaps Vulcans have no need for human standards of friendliness.

 

[exodus]

Yeah, but they do act immaturely around diplomats, ambassadors, etc. For example, in "30 Days" Paris is out of line when he accuses the water world aliens of destroying the ecosystem during a meeting on Voyager. We may sympathize with his beliefs, but as a junior officer he should keep his mouth shut and express his reservations to Janeway privately. Acting as he does, he embarrasses Janeway and only makes the aliens mad.

The whole point of the ep. was about how Tom took his privileges too far. The result was him being reprimanded and demoted.
So they showed us first hand what happens when an officers immaturity crosses the proper boundries.

How mature was Data upon meeting the ambassibor/captain in "Starship Mine"?? He was basically making fun of the man to his face................and Riker, Troi & LaForge were all laughing at it. These vacation on Riza for crying out loud.
Even the stuffiest of shirts got immature and let their freak flag fly during their personal time.

Before "Distant Voices", how mature was Bashir?
Remember how stupidly insulting he used to be on and off duty?

 

[IntrepidMan]

^Not to be harsh, but you're missing the issue, aren't you. Regardless of what the "whole point of the ep." was, Paris acts immaturely. This is only one of many, many examples where he acts in an immature and childish manner, thus leaving me to conclude that he, like Kim, is an immature and childish character.

I guess I don't understand your argument. Are you saying Paris isn't childish and immature? Or no more childish and immature than other characters? If that's your opinion, fine. Personally, I think he is, and for that reason I just don't like the character. Maybe you do. Well, okay.

 

[exodus]

^Not to be harsh, but you're missing the issue, aren't you. Regardless of what the "whole point of the ep." was, Paris acts immaturely. This is only one of many, many examples where he acts in an immature and childish manner, thus leaving me to conclude that he, like Kim, is an immature and childish character.

I guess I don't understand your argument. Are you saying Paris isn't childish and immature? Or no more childish and immature than other characters? If that's your opinion, fine. Personally, I think he is, and for that reason I just don't like the character. Maybe you do. Well, okay.

How could I be missing the point if you're also admitting to not understand my side of the argument?

 

[IntrepidMan]

How could I be missing the point if you're also admitting to not understand my side of the argument?

You could actually say what your argument is instead of making confusing statements like this one.

The example in "Thirty Days" is just that--an example. It doesn't really matter what the point of the episode is; it's just another example of Paris acting out of line.

The point I am trying to make, if it isn't clear already, is that Paris and Kim are pretty immature overall, more so than other Trek characters, like Tuvok. I don't think that's a very controversial thing to say--I think most people would agree with that. Other characters act childish from time to time, but Paris and Kim just don't ever seem to grow up. It's the way they are, the way they're written. The writers could have developed them more, made them mature more as the series progressed. It would have been interesting, for example, to see what Paris would have been like as a father, or maybe see Kim take on more responsibility and get a promotion. But we don't get to see that.

 

[Captain_Nick]

Starfleet is only a military organization when the mission requires it. And from what I know of my military friends, yes, acting like a juvenile idiot is sometimes exactly what happens. It's not like they do it while they're in the middle of a crisis. Voyager isn't just their place of work; it's their home.

I run a pizza shop (its fun being the Janeway of something) and it's exaclty the same here. We goof off and have fun from time to time (we call it fucking around, but no sex is involved) but they still stand and salute when I walk through the door.

Now Paris, he is my kind of guy. And he scored the hot Klingon bird. +1 so to speak

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I don't see how joking around and playing silly holo programs in your off time from any job equates to immaturity.

 

[NightOwl]

Perhaps it depends on what kind of programs are being used on the holodeck? A lot of people have ideas about what's appropriate and not appropriate to do with one's spare time and the ideas change with the job being performed. And apparently that's all it is: preconceived notions.

 

[tafkats]

Lately I have spent a lot of time watching old Voyager episodes online. I watched the show religiously when it first aired in the 90s, but that was more than 10 years ago and I was just a kid. Now I am watching it in a new light, more aware of its flaws than I was before. Voyager doesn't hold a candle to the best TV shows out there (shows like The Wire or Breaking Bad, which I am also watching a lot of), but for what it is--simple, harmless sci-fi fun--it's not bad. I feel like it could have been so much more, that, like other Trek shows, the premise had great potential and the writers, producers, and actors lacked the talent to really follow through. But it's not bad.

One of my favorite characters on the show is Tuvok. Yes, he was underdeveloped and one-dimensional at times, and I have always been partial to Vulcans; whereas others consider them rigid and arrogant, I see them as equable and competent. But, aside from Janeway, Tuvok often seems to be the only adult on Voyager, one of the few members of the crew who is consistently acts in a mature and professional manner.

Consider the others: Kim is a child, Paris grows up somewhat after hooking up with Torres but is still pretty childish. The Doctor and Seven are professionally competent but socially immature; Torres also lacks maturity, although she, like Paris, grows up a bit as the show progresses. Chakotay is wise but lacks balls and is not someone I would look up to. Kes is a child, Neelix is an idiot.

That leaves Janeway and Tuvok. Say what you will about the Captain--she can be fickle, moody, irresponsible--but she's got guts and isn't afraid to take a risk. She gets the job done--she got Voyager home, didn't she? She is someone you can trust and take orders from, without question, just like Picard and Sisko. Chakotay, on the other hand, is not a take-charge kind of guy. He whines. He equivocates. He's risk-averse. Were he my first officer, I might be okay letting him command the ship while I was away, but I would feel a whole lot better if Tuvok was there beside him.

Yep, Tuvok is a grown-up. I would probably kill myself if I had to spend 7 years of my life stuck on the same ship as Kim or Paris. Tuvok, on the other hand--he's someone I could get along with.

Many of the characters were deliberately written as flawed.

I don't know about you, but I've met plenty of flawed adults.