Of God's and Men ??

[Captain Atkin]

Besides, it's not a competition.

Amen!

 

[MikeH92467]

Besides, it's not a competition.

Excellent point. Those who label themselves as "Fan Films" should especially not be seen in competition, since the goals of the producers are entirely different from those who would label themselves as "Professional Productions". I think by "professional" standards OGAM is a disaster, but they wanted to call themselves a professional production so I'll judge them that way. Can't have it both ways IMHO.

To me, there are no "disasters" in the fan category. Getting a film completed and released is a triumph in and of itself. TTI is, of course, a different situation.
Comparing OGAM to fan productions is really an apples to oranges situation.

 

[Amaris]

The universe of fan films isn't just he best ones. When somebody states it's better than a typical fan film, and another person says it's not, before you can even discuss the matter you have to define what in heck you mean.

It's a film, about a specific intellectual property, made by fans.

A Radio Flyer is not a car. Your choice of analogy is a demonstration of the deep flaws in your argument. Space Wreak IS a fan film. Incomplete fan films include Exeter's TTI, which some people think is the best fan film ever made. Star Trek: Beyond is also a professional production. I have found it unwatchable, and I have a lot of tolerance for bad fan films. I encourage people to define their universe of Star Trek Fan Films when they are making comparisons. All? Pro? Adult? Complete? What?

In a discussion of quality, if one person is comparing a used car with a 10 year old Chevy, and another person is comparing it with a 1 year old Mercedes, and the one says, "It's a pretty good used car" and the other says, "No, it's not" the discussion is useless until you clarify your terms. Notice, however, that both of my examples are, indeed, used cars.

My comment referred to the lack of clarity in terms in the argument above.

No, it's not a flaw, that would be the point you're seeing there. If someone's looking for a car, you don't point them to a toy wagon in comparison, just because they're both wheeled vehicles. As such, you don't compare a professional grade, fully funded, money making movie project with an amateur effort based on devotion to an intellectual property, and say they're both fan films. They each have to be weighed based on the criteria surrounding their purpose.

 

[Tallguy]

Wow. Just ran across this thread. I'm not sure OGAM got this much attention when it got made. Certainly the opinions here are a little more balanced than I recall them being at the time it came out.

Anyone of you know WHY this was made?
Maybe these people involved had too much time and had the crazy idea of making "a fan movie"? nothing to win, only to loose, why?

You're still asking that question too, huh?

I went and rewatched OGAM today. If they ever went back to re-edit this film, these are the changes I would recommend for the first chapter:

2. After the Renegade Studios logo appears on screen, it should immediately open with the Ethan Phillips space station scene. At the end of the scene (when the station disappears) is when the main credits should start (similar to Star Trek V).

3. After main credits role, cut to the Enterprise museum ship shots. Cut out Uhura's depressing narration, and replace with either music, or a new captain's log by "Cmdr Kirk" about a "special guest" coming aboard (would make Uhura's appearance on the bridge more exciting if it wasn't telegraphed at the beginning in the narration).

Other than the naration, I could swear this is what we did. Station, Charlie, Main Credits, Enterprise-B / Enterprise M over additional credits and Uhura's narration. But it's been a while since I've seen it. Maybe we realeased an earlier edit?

I have to agree. The script was a mess. Another "Kitchen Sink" episode ala "In Harm's Way" from New Voyages. Just an awful story. Good acting, Koenig was amazing. And the special effects were so sub-par.

Mr. K. was pretty good, wasn't he? And like it or not, the Kitchen Sink-ness was very intentional. It might be too much, but it's not like the team didn't know this. I mean, c'mon the bad guy flies in a ship that's over a mile long and has spikes like Disney's Nautilus. (If you show even a tiny amount of interest I have lots of boring stories about that ship.)

I found most of the FX to be good. Only a few stood out in my mind as needing improvement.

a. The "Omega" weapon, which seemed to take forever to hit Vulcan, could probably be made better with today's FX.

b. The shuttle chase, when alternate-Chekov is fleeing from Harriman's ship and gets caught in a tractor beam, was really wonky looking.

I do think that there were too many starships in the space battle scenes. Might be good to get rid of some of those ships and scale it back a bit. I think it would actually serve to increase the tension in those scenes.

Also, the final shot of the film at Vulcan, with dozens of Federation ships buzzing around in the background, was a bit distracting. I think it might have been more effective if it had just been the Enterprise in orbit of Vulcan (like in the opening credits of TOS).

Thanks.

The Omega shot was long per the script. If you're going to blow up Vulcan you should make a big deal out of it. I was a lot happier with it once it got mixed in with reaction shots and sound FX and music. Although the temp music I cut it too (Brain Bug from Starship Troopers) was pretty bad ass.

The space battles are an area that I would have pushed to do very differently (and would have been shot down like a clay pigeon.) I know they (and let's face it, "they" includes the audience) want battles that look like Wrath of Khan, Star Wars, and Babylon 5. I'd have liked to show what it looks like to shoot at and be shot at by a ship a few hundred meters long that is hundreds of kilometers away. That means you really only see one ship at a time. You know, like TOS.

The shuttle chase was (I think) the very first shot we ever did. Sorry. But look at that first shot of the 1701-M and the 1701-B. Isn't that gorgeous?

No one has mentioned this shot, but my favorite OGAM FX story is when I was at the Phoenix Comicon screening David (TOS Battlestar Galactica, DS9, etc) Stipes congratulated me on the miniature set work we used for the Omega torpedo room. He was amazed when I told him it was CG, not a physical miniature and not only that but done with open source software. That was when I decided that anyone else who wants to complain about that shot can stuff it. It was also one of the only shots that I managed to get made that was really intentionally 1960's looking. The inside of the torpedo had lights and motors that looked like the bomb from Goldfinger. They made me cut that. (Partly because of the style, but probably more so because it didn't look as real as it should have.)

I liked the effects work.

Bless you, sir.

I enjoyed it. Though, it would have been better if Gary Lockwood and Robert Walker, Jr had reprised their roles.

I was SO bummed when I arrived on set in CA and found out Lockwood had bowed out. That was 75% of the reason I flew out there. I think if he had participated it would have been a whole different ballgame.

I thought Wellman did a fantastic job as Charlie. I don't know if he did his homework or if he just had a Robert Walker Jr-ness about him already. (Sadly I couldn't say the same for Mr. Kraal.)

I thought Alan Ruck was the best thing about this film.

Damn skippy.

When he went home after his last day of shooting (his only day in CA) the crew went out for dinner. We practically exploded with all of the Ferris Bueller quotes we'd been prudently bottling up for the whole day. Nice guy.

I've heard that the original concept would have had Sulu in the Harriman role, but that George either wasn't interested or wasn't available so they rejiggered the plot to have Harriman as Captain of the Conqueror.

Yes. I think he was unavailable because we was making New Voyages. One fan film too far, I guess. As wonderful as it was to have Harriman in the film it would have been a lot more powerful to have Sulu vs. Chekov.

And another tibit was since the Enterprise-M was museum ship there would have been a scene where you would have seen a holograpic Scotty and McCoy but it was removed early on.

No, no, you should have kept that in. Why didn't you keep it in? I bet lots of fans would have thought nothing but the best if they had seen Scotty and Bones in holgraphic form. It could only have added to the film. So any chance for a sequel?

It was a nice idea but seriously, how do you do that without using Paramount footage? I'm guessing that would have crossed a line. And we probably danced to close to enough lines as it was.

It was originally conceived by "Sky" Conway as a money maker that would be sold to fans. Here's how Tim Russ described the project:

This is not a fan film. This is an independent Trek feature, and we have every intention of selling it to the public as either a download or on DVD. Fan films are usually allowed to be viewed for free. Not to take away from the hard work and dedication of the people who make fan films, the quality of "Gods and Men" is superior the the typical fan film. I was approached by the producer, Sky Douglas Conway , about co-creating the concept for it and directing it. To me at the time, it was more or less another directing job. But it turned out to be something very special.

Mr. Russ keeps saying stuff like that. My reply is: Pay me. Then you can make that claim.

and...

This is the salient point, given that

• The producers insisted that it was not a "fan film" but a professional product, and
• The producers tried repeatedly to raise money with it.

• 
  
  I got in to this because I love Star Trek, it was flattering to be asked, and I got to work with some GREAT people and I learned a lot. I knew I was doing it for free and had no expectations otherwise. But it irks me to hear that this was somehow a professional production.
  
  And if it was so professional the pixel aspect ratio wouldn't change between acts. Or scenes.
  
  I've seen a few of the gang's new models from the "special edition" they're working on. It's going to be a treat. We've all grown up a lot and most of us (well, them) are professionals now. I'm looking forward to it. Just don't mess with my galactic barrier shot too much, huh guys?

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

But it irks me to hear that this was somehow a professional production.

Understandable. It might have helped if the director, Tim Russ, hadn't said things like this:

This is not a fan film. This is an independent Trek feature, and we have every intention of selling it to the public as either a download or on DVD. Fan films are usually allowed to be viewed for free. Not to take away from the hard work and dedication of the people who make fan films, the quality of "Gods and Men" is superior to the typical fan film.

 

[Tallguy]

But it irks me to hear that this was somehow a professional production.

Understandable. It might have helped if the director, Tim Russ, hadn't said things like this:

This is not a fan film. This is an independent Trek feature, and we have every intention of selling it to the public as either a download or on DVD. Fan films are usually allowed to be viewed for free. Not to take away from the hard work and dedication of the people who make fan films, the quality of "Gods and Men" is superior to the typical fan film.

I know. That's why I quoted that above as well. My response was "Pay me." But it was a really long post so I can understand missing it.

BTW, I'm not really asking to be payed, I'm just asking Russ and company to stop saying it was professional.

 

[Amaris]

But it irks me to hear that this was somehow a professional production.

Understandable. It might have helped if the director, Tim Russ, hadn't said things like this:

This is not a fan film. This is an independent Trek feature, and we have every intention of selling it to the public as either a download or on DVD. Fan films are usually allowed to be viewed for free. Not to take away from the hard work and dedication of the people who make fan films, the quality of "Gods and Men" is superior to the typical fan film.

I know. That's why I quoted that above as well. My response was "Pay me." But it was a really long post so I can understand missing it.

BTW, I'm not really asking to be payed, I'm just asking Russ and company to stop saying it was professional.

Agreed. His comment is what moved it up to a higher standard in my own book. There are certain concessions that I feel can be made with a fan film, but when the Director starts setting down statements that it's not only professional, but actually superior to a fan film, then he's got a lot to prove, and if he doesn't, his work will get judged accordingly. It's why I feel OGAM fell far short of the goal. As a fan film, it's okay, but as a professional, "superior" endeavor, not even close, and it's not the actors or crew I look at for that, it's the one making the statement, the one running the show, and that's Tim.

 

[Tom]

Tim was not really running the whole show though, he was the director but beyond directing the live action, he was not involved with to much else in the production. Tim made statements that maybe he should not have said. The film was a mixure of professionals and fans. If the film had a decent budget then more professionals would have been involved.

Still, the fans that did work on it put in a hell of a lot of effort and time and for that they should be applauded.

 

[Amaris]

Tim was not running the show, he was the director but beyond directing the live action he was not invoved with to much else in the production. Tim made statements that maybe he should not have said. The film was a mixure of professionals and fans. If the film had a decent budget then more profesionals would have been involved.

As a director he still has a great deal of responsibility, as well as being able to guide the direction of the material, making the quality better or worse based on that guidance. Now, I like Tim Russ, I do, but he bit off more than he could chew, and he made it worse by claiming superiority over fan films, for something which it just is not. It's not terrible, and I have nothing against the cast and crew, but it just wasn't what it claimed to be.

 

[Tom]

Tim was not running the show, he was the director but beyond directing the live action he was not invoved with to much else in the production. Tim made statements that maybe he should not have said. The film was a mixure of professionals and fans. If the film had a decent budget then more profesionals would have been involved.

As a director he still has a great deal of responsibility, as well as being able to guide the direction of the material, making the quality better or worse based on that guidance. Now, I like Tim Russ, I do, but he bit off more than he could chew, and he made it worse by claiming superiority over fan films, for something which it just is not. It's not terrible, and I have nothing against the cast and crew, but it just wasn't what it claimed to be.

I agree for the most part, but any director or producer is going to say his/her film is the best thing since sliced bread. Sometimes pride can do that. I know i do it myself, as part of the production I tend to be defensive about the film as was Bill (Tallguy) above. It's been 6 years and the film is what it is, like it or dislike it. Maybe people will like the Special Edition when its done, maybe they won't, its a matter of opinion. You can only hope to improve on what was done and make the next one better. Certainly you can see that with PhaseII, that there episodes are better than the last episode in production values and so on...