Doctor Who S7 Wishlist

[DS9Continuing]

crippled bloke in a wheelchair in VOTD --> Davros in SE/JE

Frak - I never noticed that before. And I'm usually pretty good at spotting that kind of thing.

and i'm pretty sure someone pointed out something which foreshadowed The Master's return as well...

Well, there was Lazarus "regenerating" himself into a younger version in "The Lazarus Experiment," even using the same line - "I am reborn."

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[DWF]

there's also the bit where they bring back an old villain in the series finale, after telegraphing their return in an earlier story.

Dalek --> Dalek army in POTW
Age of the Cybermen --> Army of Ghosts
crippled bloke in a wheelchair in VOTD --> Davros in SE/JE

and i'm pretty sure someone pointed out something which foreshadowed The Master's return as well...

The Master's return was the only one planned for the others are just a coindience.

 

[DS9Continuing]

there's also the bit where they bring back an old villain in the series finale, after telegraphing their return in an earlier story.

Dalek --> Dalek army in POTW
Age of the Cybermen --> Army of Ghosts
crippled bloke in a wheelchair in VOTD --> Davros in SE/JE

and i'm pretty sure someone pointed out something which foreshadowed The Master's return as well...

The Master's return was the only one planned for the others are just a coindience.

Possibly for the Daleks, since we know there was a danger of not getting to use the Daleks at all.

And I'll grant the Max Capricorn - Davros connection is a bit tenuous.

But it's not even vaguely true for the Cybermen at least, since RotC/TAoS and AoG/DD were filmed back-to-back to make sure the costumes and guest actors were available, so they certainly knew what was coming up down the line there.

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[The Wormhole]

I would still like see more the Modasian Cybermen the long rumored Ice Warriors.

I thought the Cybermen we saw in A Good Man Goes to War and Closing Time were meant to be Mondasian? After all they removed the Cybus logo from the chest, so they clearly aren't meant to be the Cybusmen anymore.

I doubt we'll be seeing the Ice Wariors anytime soon since they were featured in a recent novel. If there were any plans of having them in the show, that novel likely wouldn't have been published. Or at the very least, wouldn't have featured the Ice Warriors. There's precedent for this, Michael Moorcock wanted to feature Captain Jack in his novel, but BBC wouldn't allow him due to there being a chance he would return on screen.

 

[CaptainMatt]

Series 1 arc - there's a word and in the last episode you're going to find out what it means
Series 2 arc - there's a word and in the last episode you're going to find out what it means
Series 3 arc - there's a word and in the last episode you're going to find out what it means
Series 4 arc - there's lots of words and in the last episode you're going to find out what it means

Series 5 arc - there's a visual effect and in the last episode you're going to find out what it means...but in the mean time it's going to be important to the stories rather than jurt being a wink wink (also we're already setting up the series 6 arc, in a way you won't even notice until later!)

Series 6 ar...HOLY SHIT THEY KILLED THE DOCTOR THEN BURNT HIM!

That made me laugh aloud when I read that. Thanks for that.

 

[sidious618]

there's also the bit where they bring back an old villain in the series finale, after telegraphing their return in an earlier story.

Dalek --> Dalek army in POTW
Age of the Cybermen --> Army of Ghosts
crippled bloke in a wheelchair in VOTD --> Davros in SE/JE

and i'm pretty sure someone pointed out something which foreshadowed The Master's return as well...

The Master's return was the only one planned for the others are just a coindience.

That's not true at all. The Daleks were always planned for the first season and it briefly looked like they wouldn't get the rights and RTD almost had to change the villains of the Time Lords. The Cybermen were clearly set up to be the big bad of season two and, as you say, the Master was always intentioned as well.

 

[DWF]

there's also the bit where they bring back an old villain in the series finale, after telegraphing their return in an earlier story.

Dalek --> Dalek army in POTW
Age of the Cybermen --> Army of Ghosts
crippled bloke in a wheelchair in VOTD --> Davros in SE/JE

and i'm pretty sure someone pointed out something which foreshadowed The Master's return as well...

The Master's return was the only one planned for the others are just a coindience.

That's not true at all. The Daleks were always planned for the first season and it briefly looked like they wouldn't get the rights and RTD almost had to change the villains of the Time Lords. The Cybermen were clearly set up to be the big bad of season two and, as you say, the Master was always intentioned as well.

No, they weren't the Toclafane were the original monsters to have been used in the first season finale before they were able to get the rights to the Daleks.

Very early in the process of developing ideas for the new Doctor Who series in 2004, executive producer Russell T Davies conceived the idea of a monster which would take the form of a small, flying sphere. Possessing the personality of a sadistic child, this would in fact be a human from the end of time, horribly mutated. For a considerable period, the monster possessed neither a name, nor a story in which to appear. Davies considered using it in both Dalek and The Satan Pit when those stories ran into issues with their monsters (the temporary loss of the rights to use the Daleks, and concerns over the expense of computer-animating the Beast, respectively), although in the end his own creation remained on the shelf. Ultimately, Davies' monster -- now called the Toclafane (originally, Roclafane, but changed to avoid similarities with the Racnoss from The Runaway Bride) -- became the first element conceived for Doctor Who's 2007 season finale.

 

[sidious618]

The other monster would've taken the exact same place of the Daleks so therefore the idea that the monster is foreshadowed in an episode earlier on still stands.

 

[DWF]

The other monster would've taken the exact same place of the Daleks so therefore the idea that the monster is foreshadowed in an episode earlier on still stands.

There was no foreshadowing of either the Daleks or the Bad Wolf Corp. in The Long Game.

 

[sidious618]

The other monster would've taken the exact same place of the Daleks so therefore the idea that the monster is foreshadowed in an episode earlier on still stands.

There was no foreshadowing of either the Daleks or the Bad Wolf Corp. in The Long Game.

No. The Daleks were foreshadowed in the episode "Dalek." Go back and reread what has been said. We were talking about RTD's tendency to introduce a threat and then bring it back up again in the finale for a big explosion that outdoes the PREVIOUS finale and how this tendency became tiring/predictable after a while.

 

[The Wormhole]

The other monster would've taken the exact same place of the Daleks so therefore the idea that the monster is foreshadowed in an episode earlier on still stands.

There was no foreshadowing of either the Daleks or the Bad Wolf Corp. in The Long Game.

Maybe not the Daleks, but there was a Bad Wolf referance in The Long Game.

"On the Bad Wolf channel, the Face of Boe has announced he's pregnant."

 

[JB2005]

Lets hope this time Jack did better as a father!

 

[DWF]

The other monster would've taken the exact same place of the Daleks so therefore the idea that the monster is foreshadowed in an episode earlier on still stands.

There was no foreshadowing of either the Daleks or the Bad Wolf Corp. in The Long Game.

No. The Daleks were foreshadowed in the episode "Dalek." Go back and reread what has been said. We were talking about RTD's tendency to introduce a threat and then bring it back up again in the finale for a big explosion that outdoes the PREVIOUS finale and how this tendency became tiring/predictable after a while.

I can't that as foreshadowing, that Dalek was meant to the last one, the monsters in the finale were meant to be the Toclafane. And your argument could be used to explain Moffat's era as well, both of his seasons were built around one day and one event.

 

[DWF]

I would still like see more the Modasian Cybermen the long rumored Ice Warriors.

I thought the Cybermen we saw in A Good Man Goes to War and Closing Time were meant to be Mondasian? After all they removed the Cybus logo from the chest, so they clearly aren't meant to be the Cybusmen anymore.

I doubt we'll be seeing the Ice Wariors anytime soon since they were featured in a recent novel. If there were any plans of having them in the show, that novel likely wouldn't have been published. Or at the very least, wouldn't have featured the Ice Warriors. There's precedent for this, Michael Moorcock wanted to feature Captain Jack in his novel, but BBC wouldn't allow him due to there being a chance he would return on screen.

Yeah we've been seeing the Modasian Cybermen during Moffat's run so far but IMO they haven't had a good story yet. And at least the Ice Warriors were mentioned in The Waters Of Mars. I'd rather see updated Ice Warriors than the new Silurians.

 

[DS9Continuing]

No, they weren't the Toclafane were the original monsters to have been used in the first season finale before they were able to get the rights to the Daleks.

Very early in the process of developing ideas for the new Doctor Who series in 2004, executive producer Russell T Davies conceived the idea of a monster which would take the form of a small, flying sphere. Possessing the personality of a sadistic child, this would in fact be a human from the end of time, horribly mutated. For a considerable period, the monster possessed neither a name, nor a story in which to appear. Davies considered using it in both Dalek and The Satan Pit when those stories ran into issues with their monsters (the temporary loss of the rights to use the Daleks, and concerns over the expense of computer-animating the Beast, respectively), although in the end his own creation remained on the shelf. Ultimately, Davies' monster -- now called the Toclafane (originally, Roclafane, but changed to avoid similarities with the Racnoss from The Runaway Bride) -- became the first element conceived for Doctor Who's 2007 season finale.

That doesn't actually prove your case like you seem to think it does. All that says is that RTD came up with the idea that he would later name the Toclafane only in case he couldn't get the rights to use the Daleks. It's pretty clear that the Daleks and the Beast were the first choice, and the Toclafane were the backup plan.

The other monster would've taken the exact same place of the Daleks so therefore the idea that the monster is foreshadowed in an episode earlier on still stands.

There was no foreshadowing of either the Daleks or the Bad Wolf Corp. in The Long Game.

There was foreshadowing of some type in every episode of the season, just not necessarily about the Daleks. The foreshadowing in "The Long Game" was about setting up the Game Station and the concept that someone behind the scenes was manipulating humankind to become passive and docile.

I can't that as foreshadowing, that Dalek was meant to the last one, the monsters in the finale were meant to be the Toclafane.

Why on earth would he fight so hard to get the rights to use the Daleks, and then not use them for the giant season finale - the one that was meant to tie up the current Doctor's character arc as regards the Time War and even kill that current incarnation? Why bring in another bad guy that no-one has any connection to or interest in, when you've got the most famous bad guy in the whole franchise to hang your story on? That simply doesn't make any sense at all.

And you can't use the fact that the lone Dalek in "Dalek" was supposed to be the last Dalek in existence as proof - that's been standard procedure for dozens of Dalek stories before and after. Plus it makes it all the more of a surprise when the Daleks do return at the end of "Bad Wolf."

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[DWF]

No, they weren't the Toclafane were the original monsters to have been used in the first season finale before they were able to get the rights to the Daleks.

Very early in the process of developing ideas for the new Doctor Who series in 2004, executive producer Russell T Davies conceived the idea of a monster which would take the form of a small, flying sphere. Possessing the personality of a sadistic child, this would in fact be a human from the end of time, horribly mutated. For a considerable period, the monster possessed neither a name, nor a story in which to appear. Davies considered using it in both Dalek and The Satan Pit when those stories ran into issues with their monsters (the temporary loss of the rights to use the Daleks, and concerns over the expense of computer-animating the Beast, respectively), although in the end his own creation remained on the shelf. Ultimately, Davies' monster -- now called the Toclafane (originally, Roclafane, but changed to avoid similarities with the Racnoss from The Runaway Bride) -- became the first element conceived for Doctor Who's 2007 season finale.

That doesn't actually prove your case like you seem to think it does. All that says is that RTD came up with the idea that he would later name the Toclafane only in case he couldn't get the rights to use the Daleks. It's pretty clear that the Daleks and the Beast were the first choice, and the Toclafane were the backup plan.

There was no foreshadowing of either the Daleks or the Bad Wolf Corp. in The Long Game.

There was foreshadowing of some type in every episode of the season, just not necessarily about the Daleks. The foreshadowing in "The Long Game" was about setting up the Game Station and the concept that someone behind the scenes was manipulating humankind to become passive and docile.

I can't that as foreshadowing, that Dalek was meant to the last one, the monsters in the finale were meant to be the Toclafane.

Why on earth would he fight so hard to get the rights to use the Daleks, and then not use them for the giant season finale - the one that was meant to tie up the current Doctor's character arc as regards the Time War and even kill that current incarnation? Why bring in another bad guy that no-one has any connection to or interest in, when you've got the most famous bad guy in the whole franchise to hang your story on? That simply doesn't make any sense at all.

And you can't use the fact that the lone Dalek in "Dalek" was supposed to be the last Dalek in existence as proof - that's been standard procedure for dozens of Dalek stories before and after. Plus it makes it all the more of a surprise when the Daleks do return at the end of "Bad Wolf."

.

The Daleks don't have to be used in every finale as the third season finale proved. Parting Of The Ways was rewritten several times, RTD put together the idea of the Daleks, Bad Wolf and the game station but the Bad Wolf thread might've gone into the second season.

One plot thread absent from Davies' pitch document was the running theme of the words “bad wolf” dogging the Doctor and Rose throughout the season's adventures. (This appeared in dialogue from the Moxx of Balhoon in The End Of The World, during Gwyneth's conversation with Rose in The Unquiet Dead, as spraypainted graffiti on the side of the TARDIS in Aliens Of London / World War Three, as Henry van Statten's codename in Dalek, as a TV channel in The Long Game, scrawled on a poster in Father's Day, in German as the name of the bomb in The Empty Child / The Doctor Dances, and finally in Welsh as the designation of the nuclear power station in Boom Town. The words had also crept up in various associated media, such as the spin-off novels from BBC Books and in additional footage on the BBC's Doctor Who website.) Davies had begun developing the notion while writing Aliens Of London. Although he was initially uncertain as to whether the “bad wolf” element would continue into a potential second season (or even be abandoned altogether), Davies eventually planned for the arc to come to fruition in the year's final adventure. Consequently, he renamed “Gameshow World!” as Bad Wolf.

And in any event the magic word of the season wasn't first spoken in the first ep. Bad Wolf was first mentioned in The End Of The World, Torchwood was first mentioned in Bad Wolf and I think Saxon's name was first mentioned on Torchwood.

 

[DS9Continuing]

The Daleks don't have to be used in every finale as the third season finale proved. Parting Of The Ways was rewritten several times, RTD put together the idea of the Daleks, Bad Wolf and the game station but the Bad Wolf thread might've gone into the second season.

I'm sorry, I'm really not clear on what point you're trying to make now. We seem to have drifted so far off the topic of the thread that I'm simply not sure what this has to do with anything.

One plot thread absent from Davies' pitch document was the running theme of the words “bad wolf” dogging the Doctor and Rose throughout the season's adventures. (This appeared in dialogue from the Moxx of Balhoon in The End Of The World, during Gwyneth's conversation with Rose in The Unquiet Dead, as spraypainted graffiti on the side of the TARDIS in Aliens Of London / World War Three, as Henry van Statten's codename in Dalek, as a TV channel in The Long Game, scrawled on a poster in Father's Day, in German as the name of the bomb in The Empty Child / The Doctor Dances, and finally in Welsh as the designation of the nuclear power station in Boom Town. The words had also crept up in various associated media, such as the spin-off novels from BBC Books and in additional footage on the BBC's Doctor Who website.) Davies had begun developing the notion while writing Aliens Of London. Although he was initially uncertain as to whether the “bad wolf” element would continue into a potential second season (or even be abandoned altogether), Davies eventually planned for the arc to come to fruition in the year's final adventure. Consequently, he renamed “Gameshow World!” as Bad Wolf.

And in any event the magic word of the season wasn't first spoken in the first ep. Bad Wolf was first mentioned in The End Of The World, Torchwood was first mentioned in Bad Wolf and I think Saxon's name was first mentioned on Torchwood.

Yes, it's established behind-scenes fact that the "Bad Wolf" business was made up as he went along. Again, I'm not sure how that relates to the Dalek discussion we were having earlier. He just figured out what to make the phrase mean after he started using it.

Saxon was first name checked in "Love and Monsters," which also included name checks of both Torchwood and Bad Wolf, making it the only episode in which all three "arc words" were mentioned. That shows that he was definitely planning ahead and had got the hang of the whole "arc word" concept at least by season 2. Saxon was then name checked again in "The Runaway Bride" and seen on a poster in "Captain Jack Harkness," although I'm not sure which of those came first.

Now, if the point some pages back was that Moffat's version of an arc was more integral to the actual stories of the season was than RTD's version of an arc (random mentions of a word that no character even notices until the two-part finale, versus being a vital plot point in at least three stories before we even get to the finale), then I can certainly see some value in that argument.

But I would argue that RTD was actually a lot more subtle with his arc plotting than people give him credit for. Go through all his seasons and watch every episode again with knowledge of what's coming, and you'll see numerous occasions where the earlier stories might not have plot connections to the arc, but they damn sure have conceptual and thematic connections.

For example, "Father's Day" serves to explain to Rose why the Doctor can't just go back and undo the Time War, because it would only screw up everything even more than it already is. In "Tooth and Claw" it's the Doctor and Rose's gleeful love for each other in the face of danger that inspires Queen Vic to create the Torchwood Institute, which later is responsible for tearing the couple apart. "42" and "Human Nature" both feature the Doctor rendered helpless and Martha must save him, just as she does in "Last of the Time Lords." And "The Unicorn and the Wasp" features a woman who feels useless doing something hugely heroic and then being forced to forget all about it. There are many more examples than that.

So basically I see RTD's arcs as being simple on the surface but surprisingly deep underneath, and Moffats arcs as being mind-screwingly complex on the surface but without any real depth.

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[RoJoHen]

"On the Bad Wolf channel, the Face of Boe has announced he's pregnant."

That sounds...tricky.

 

[DS9Continuing]

"On the Bad Wolf channel, the Face of Boe has announced he's pregnant."

That sounds...tricky.

If anyone could do it, Jack could.

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[CaptainMatt]

So who wants the Dream Lord to appear again in S7?