Sony rebooting Starship Troopers

[Demiurge]

No, the takeaway from this is that the book contradicts itself. In the story proper, a necessarily small elite veteran electorate votes. In a few throwaway lines, the opposite is asserted, despite being impossible in story terms.

I can't concur. You make your case that parasitic HAS to mean small. Clearly that is not the case, as any dozen dictionaries could assert - it can also mean 'taking undue amounts of resources away, leachlike'. Yes, the electorate is smaller than the citizenry, that doesn't mean it's small in relative terms - so is ours.

So we don't know what he meant based on that one word. No other reference of the franchise being small exists in the book. You predicate the entire premise on one specific word that can have more than one meaning.

In contradiction to your assumption (not the work itself), we have two statements on the franchise, one that too many people are getting it these days in the opinion of one veteran, and another that the majority of people who get it didn't serve in the military branch.

Heinlein states that was his intent, and while the book isn't about the non-military Federal Service, we know it exists, we know it is larger than the military, and we know that Rico's best friend joins it - the one who talked him into service in the first place. Unlike the movie, it's a pure research job in electronics, not an SS position, and Carl dies on Pluto when the Bugs attack the research station there. He doesn't get his franchise.

Having this explicit evidence clearly overwhelms the dubious assertion that parasitic has to mean 'small' in absolute term - it doesn't. Humanity could be termed parasitic to the Earth's ecological balance - that doesn't mean we are tiny.

The father's reference to parasitism has to do with the uselessness (in his POV) of Federal Service, especially in peace time, not the smallness of it. He states he'd support Johnn joining the MI if there was a war. And he states that no Rico has held the franchise in a hundred years and they have done quite well for themselves. Just as many people in our society don't vote, yet still have happy and contented lives.

The reference I asked had to do with contractors providing support services at Heinlein's version of OCS, which again shows that there are very few military services proper. Which means there cannot be a large number of veteran electors.

You are mistaken. OCS was staffed by disabled veterans in teaching positions. You are probably thinking of the fleet depot Sanctuary. Yes, there were civilians there, over a million. It's a colony after all. It says about half of those are employed in some manner by the Federal service.

Of course, this is the secret base where society is supposed to continue if Earth is wiped out, and it's well into the war, so I'd imagine more people are going into the MI at that point as compared to administrative roles.

Ultimately, it's no proof whatsoever of anything - it's a small colony that is definitely not typical in any way of the society as a whole.

I never said anything of the sort, and I explicitly stated this is the opposite of what I said. This is even worse than the assumption that a SF writer wouldn't know that the scientific meaning of "parasite" implies small. Or imagine that a businessman wouldn't know terms like "freeloaders" or "bums" or "timeservers" or, even, if he wanted to get fancy, "sinecures."
When you have to make stuff up, it means you've run out of real argument.

Yes, you just ignore the circle you form with your logic. Rico is stupid, therefore he can only be assigned MI. MI is the lowest branch of the Service (though it clearly states that isn't the case in the novel) therefore stupid people get assigned to it.

Rico isn't stupid, though he's ignorant and naive as any 18 year old is in many ways (especially pre-communications age, which of course doesn't show in the book). And the MI is clearly a higher level of service than the non-military, which is numerically superior.

The upshot of it all is that you think it's just dandy for a man to tell children that there's not really any thing such as human rights,

Inalienable human rights are a construct, as Heinlein points out. It is advantageous for our own well being to assume that construct exists, but clearly such a construct is defined by men, not nature or a higher power. As such, they are capable of being revoked. Understanding that it isn't somehow built into the nature of reality is the first step in understanding they can be taken away, and why it is necessary to fight for said construct.

that violence is the final arbiter

It certainly can be, as any reading of history will assert. Ultimately what stops it from being the final arbiter is our own humanity, and what we are willing to do.

and genocide is just a strategy.

I think you'll find even in our rarefied Western democracy, if a group annihilated one of our cities with a WMD there'd be a substantial response. LOL.

And of course that misses the point of the MI itself. The culmination of the book is the capture of a Brain Bug. Why is this pertinent? Because it is necessary to understand their society and sociology, so communications can be formed. Communications so they can learn why the Bugs fight - and get them to not fight in the future.

Weapons capable of destroying planets are available to the Navy in the book, yet they don't use those. Because they need someone to go in and capture a Brain, which they hope will lead to communications between the societies.

This is explicitly stated, once again.

 

[Mistral]

I think Demiurge states the case very clearly.

 

[Kegg]

While it is a barebones description of how the society he envisions works, I'm not totally convinced it isn't as viable as our own. Combine it with Universe Commonsense and you get some interesting ideas for modifications to the current system.

It's a terrible idea in that it posits electoral franchise being limited to government work - that is, only performance of 'worthy' jobs makes one eligible to vote. Whatever problems modern representative democracy has, restricting voting rights based on highly arbitrary value systems is a trifle retrograde. One could make a case for it being better than earlier democracies where the electorate was restricted further by ownership of land and religious affiliations but it measures pretty poorly to the democratic states of the Western world to which Heinlein was a contemporary.

Voerhoven's hatred of militarism and his identification of it with fascism is probably due to his childhood upbringing in the Nazi-occupied Netherlands.

Quite, which is definitely one of the strengths of the film. I think Verhoeven summed it up with the glib "War makes fascists of us all", and while the term 'fascist' is thrown around a little loosely, that ugly propagandistic and jingoistic tendencies be validated in wartime is, well, universally true.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

It's a terrible idea in that it posits electoral franchise being limited to government work - that is, only performance of 'worthy' jobs makes one eligible to vote.

But since these 'worthy' jobs are accessible to all, is it really so terrible? Anyone can sign up for federal service, and once they do, they MUST be accepted.

 

[Kegg]

But since these 'worthy' jobs are accessible to all, is it really so terrible?

Absolutely. It's the assumption that 'this' work is more relevant than that work, that, say, factory workers should have less rights than soldiers... and you're going to still need people to do these non-election holding jobs.

 

[Davros]

The only thing I liked about the film were the designs of the warrior bugs. The rest was shit.

I agree

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

But since these 'worthy' jobs are accessible to all, is it really so terrible?

Absolutely. It's the assumption that 'this' work is more relevant than that work, that, say, factory workers should have less rights than soldiers... and you're going to still need people to do these non-election holding jobs.

The right to vote as it is in the real world still carries such distinctions with it. You have to be a certain age to vote, for example. And you have to be a citizen of the country where you are voting. That implies that those of a certain age are more relevant than those who are not yet that age, and that citizens are relevant whereas non-citizens are not. So the mere question of relevance doesn't mean ST should be dismissed out of hand.

 

[Kegg]

The right to vote as it is in the real world still carries such distinctions with it.

No, it doesn't judge you based on your work. The first of the two divisions you mention is a universally and automatically passable one, any prospective voter merely needs to live sufficiently long to qualify.

In the latter case it's required in any world with more than one nation state.

One could probably make the argument for laxer citizenship application laws, or a lower voting age (say, 16), but they're not positions that are in and of themselves retrograde.

 

[stj]

I can't concur. You make your case that parasitic HAS to mean small... .You predicate the entire premise on one specific word that can have more than one meaning...Heinlein states that was his intent, and while the book isn't about the non-military Federal Service, we know it exists, we know it is larger than the military, and we know that Rico's best friend joins it...OCS was staffed by disabled veterans in teaching positions. You are probably thinking of the fleet depot Sanctuary. Yes, there were civilians there, over a million. It's a colony after all. It says about half of those are employed in some manner by the Federal service...Ultimately, it's no proof whatsoever of anything - it's a small colony that is definitely not typical in any way of the society as a whole.

The primary usage of "parasite" implies small.

It is however not the case that the entire case rests upon this single word.

The case that the Federal Service rests upon selectively choosing isolated sentences and phrases in the little sermonettes, even when they are contradicted by instances in what little story there really is. and on distortions.

For example, there is more to the OCS than the teachers, the valets/batmen/orderlies, for instance and reducing the issue of whose work counts as Federal Service is falsified. And, frankly the massive number of civilians in proportion to the base on Sanctuary who are merely employed by Federal Service (half the population!) but will not get the franchise is no escaped by simply waving away Sanctuary as atypical. It is the only planet we see much Federal Service on.

Given the number of retirees filling Federal Service jobs like HMP teachers, how many such jobs can be left? The one we know about from Rico's personal experience is an elite research position on another freaking planet! How many such positions can there be to provide the large electorate.

Your real defense is that in this society most people don't bother to vote, and you automatically assume this means they are satisfied. I say this is convenient thinking, that the reason they don't vote is probably because they know it won't make any difference since the system is rigged. History shows that common people in times of revolution turn out to be intensely interested in politics and engage not just in voting but in extensive, arduous and even dangerous activity. I think the small electorate in Starship Troopers is attractive precisely because this is the kind of thing you don't like.

Yes, you just ignore the circle you form with your logic. Rico is stupid, therefore he can only be assigned MI. MI is the lowest branch of the Service (though it clearly states that isn't the case in the novel) therefore stupid people get assigned to it.

Rico isn't stupid, though he's ignorant and naive as any 18 year old is in many ways (especially pre-communications age, which of course doesn't show in the book). And the MI is clearly a higher level of service than the non-military, which is numerically superior.

Don't argue with your fake version of what I said. If Rico has so much potential, he qualifies not just for MI, but for many other services and jobs that are less demanding. The book explicitly states that he does not. Ergo, the MI is not the most demanding service.

We could assume that the tester was lying, to force him into the position that he wanted. This would be on par with the lovely suggestion that a handicapped person would be tormented with cruel tasks until they gave up their quest for suffrage. But you didn't acknowledge the problems with your imaginary vision of a large electorate.

The notion that Rico is just ignorant and naive is nonsense. He's an idiot, who properly credits many people with his eventual success, which consists in realizing they were always smarter than he was. The book is written in Rico's voice and he's a dummy. Have you not read the book, in the sense of actually understanding it?

Inalienable human rights are a construct, as Heinlein points out.

That's not the point he was making. He was saying there are no rights, that everything has to be earned. He doesn't believe that inalienable rights should be constructed. He does this with specious logic. This is on par with his disgusting defense of whipping as equally "fair" for both rich and poor, when he knows full well that the rich would still be preferred. Why would someone defend spreading such BS in a children's adventure story?

Weapons capable of destroying planets are available to the Navy in the book, yet they don't use those. Because they need someone to go in and capture a Brain, which they hope will lead to communications between the societies.

This is explicitly stated, once again.

And mutual deterrence would have nothing to do with it? BS. This book argues in bad faith, trying to pollute the minds of children (both official and superannuated.) And the handful of explicit statements that the defenders of this nasty, crazy vision of human society latch on to them, ignoring how ludicrous they are.

 

[TeknoNurd]

Interesting discussion. I've read and listenned to ST several times, so there are some clarifications:

1. K9 and MI were at the bottom of Rico's "preferred" list, his choices of service. MI was not the "bottom service", it was just the bottom of what Rico chose, things he thought he could do, perhaps do well. Once his "preferred" list was exhausted, he'd be assigned to whatever Federal Service he could do that they neeeded. Rico was critisized for not preparing for any specific Federal Service on his list. He was a generalist in a specialist (military) world.

2. This discussion on franchise is forgetting the history, that modern democracies, like the USA, FAILED. The veterans of the time took authority to set things straight, and the only people they trusted with authority where other veterans, hence that system of franchise. In his high school HMP class, it's stated that the current system is no better or worse than any other system, only that it currently works.

3. With veterans in charge of government, it's fairly assumed that rich people would be viewed equal to poor people in the administration of justice. If ANYONE get's preferential treatment, veterans would give it to other veterans (as the powerful rich give preferential treatment to other powerful rich now).

4. Parisitism. The person saying the Federal Services were small is probably closer to wrong. Parasites are not defined as "small", just things that live off the resources of other things. Yes, some parasites are microbes. Other parasites are 30 foot long tape worms. The sense I got was Federal Government was likely smaller than it is now in the USA. Veteran's govern, Federal Servers fight.

5. Humanity spanned several planets, in several solar systems, not only in our solar system. That Carl was assigned to Pluto was not a sign that he was out in the middle of nowhere.

6. Not all MI got Nukes. When Rico is making his first drop as a squad leader (actually, one notch higher) was the first time he got nukes. In his training, he got his lashes because he didn't take proper care with simulated nukes, so they obviously took their use very seriously.

7. The vast majority of people did not have franchise, but franchise and government were NOT totalitarian, as non citizens made a good living working for and selling to the government. A Totalitarian government would TAKE. There was no indication that the government did anything but pay fair wages and prices for services and products. Non Citizens obviously had ECONOMIC power to offset their lack of franchise. Franchise was not abused by those that had it, at least during the period of the book.

8. Violence *IS* the ultimate authority. Even in democratic countries (like the USA), it is the threat of force that allows the government to collect taxes. Just because they don't often use force, doesn't mean it's not out there. Or, is it just coincidence that every March/April we here of major tax evaders being imprisonned... which is a message to all of us to pay up or it could happen to you. Internationally, you'll notice the USA "NEVER" removes military action as an option to deal with countries that do stuff we don't like.

 

[Kegg]

2. This discussion on franchise is forgetting the history, that modern democracies, like the USA, FAILED.

A writer can put whatever he wants in his work.

Observe:

The United States and the Western democracies failed and it took the strong collectivist arm and military backbone of the Soviet Union to save the world which is why we're all communist now.

There. That's now a background to a non-existent scenario in which the entire world is Soviet and also it's a better world than the present one and more advanced and yadda yadda yadda.

7. The vast majority of people did not have franchise, but franchise and government were NOT totalitarian, as non citizens made a good living working for and selling to the government. A Totalitarian government would TAKE.

To use the Soviet Union example again: It was possible for people to work and live well and sell things to the government in the Soviet Union, a country which also had a strong military presence in the government.

But other than analogies here: This is a society where basically everything electorally speaking is going to be weighted towards the Federal Services in general and obviously the military. You can't complain about the corruption or perks of military spending unless you've been a veteran, and you certainly can't argue about the moral worth of factory work.

 

[stj]

Interesting discussion. I've read and listenned to ST several times, so there are some clarifications:

1. K9 and MI were at the bottom of Rico's "preferred" list, his choices of service. MI was not the "bottom service", it was just the bottom of what Rico chose, things he thought he could do, perhaps do well. Once his "preferred" list was exhausted, he'd be assigned to whatever Federal Service he could do that they neeeded. Rico was critisized for not preparing for any specific Federal Service on his list. He was a generalist in a specialist (military) world.

If MI was intended to be a high level service, demanding highly qualified soldiers, then Rico would have qualified for logistics, which he listed even though he didn't know what it is. Not knowing this is not a good sign in a Harvard acceptee. Given that this is the far future, maybe Harvard is a loser college?

 

[Demiurge]

The primary usage of "parasite" implies small.

It is however not the case that the entire case rests upon this single word.

Sure it is, because the logic structures you build on that are false too.

The case that the Federal Service rests upon selectively choosing isolated sentences and phrases in the little sermonettes, even when they are contradicted by instances in what little story there really is. and on distortions.

That is a very accurate rendition of your own argument. To wit:

For example, there is more to the OCS than the teachers, the valets/batmen/orderlies, for instance and reducing the issue of whose work counts as Federal Service is falsified.

One civilian per OCS candidate does not preclude the existence of other Federal Service jobs. It doesn't even state that all of these civilians don't have the franchise.

Failure in logic. Even if there were civilians in that role in the book, that would not always evidence that these roles are always performed by civilians.

And, frankly the massive number of civilians in proportion to the base on Sanctuary who are merely employed by Federal Service (half the population!) but will not get the franchise

Failure in logic.

We don't know how many of these civilians have the franchise. They could be people that served previously now retired to civilian life, therefore exercising their franchise. Veteran refers to former Military, NOT former Federal Service, and we know that former Federal Service is a larger group than former military. Indeed, a veteran can also be called a civilian, as they are not active military.

is no escaped by simply waving away Sanctuary as atypical. It is the only planet we see much Federal Service on.

It is the only planet we are given specific numbers on. We have no idea how many Federal Service jobs are on Earth, and what percentage of their population has the vote.

This underscores the concept of applying 'small' to be highly subjective. That's hardly an objective construct. I'd say it's almost certainly less than the number of people in our society with the vote. But it may be a high number compared to those who exercise the vote.

And again, that's one of the author's principle points.

Personally I'd be against such a system, but that doesn't mean it's inherently fascist or evil.

Given the number of retirees filling Federal Service jobs like HMP teachers, how many such jobs can be left?

Bizarre construct - there's no correlation between our very limited sample size and whether or not those jobs exist.

The one we know about from Rico's personal experience is an elite research position on another freaking planet! How many such positions can there be to provide the large electorate.

Another freaking planet? So you think Sanctuary, despite being a hidden planet that exists solely as a military base, and is so secret that even the troopers stationed there don't know how to get there, is a good indicator of the society as a whole, but that there's something weird about being assigned a research position in an intrasolar colony in a federation that's stated to have multiple extrasolar colonies?

Carl's position probably isn't typical - but once again, it is EXPLICITLY STATED if you want to serve they have to take you, and they will find make work for you for years if they don't have any real work for you to perform.

You claim that the author is lying in his own world creation in many places, yet take the smallest implications of words as gospel in others.

I'd say that has a lot more to say about your political world view than it does the work itself. You can't speak as an honest arbitrator of what is actually in it, only how you perceive it.

 

[Demiurge]

More.

Your real defense is that in this society most people don't bother to vote, and you automatically assume this means they are satisfied.

Incorrect - I state that there are people that don't vote that are satisfied, not that all people who don't vote are satisfied.

I say this is convenient thinking, that the reason they don't vote is probably because they know it won't make any difference since the system is rigged. History shows that common people in times of revolution turn out to be intensely interested in politics and engage not just in voting but in extensive, arduous and even dangerous activity. I think the small electorate in Starship Troopers is attractive precisely because this is the kind of thing you don't like.

Irrelevant, but whatever floats your vote. It was certain that because I view this as an interesting and relevant work, mostly on it's merits as speculative fiction in military matters, though also somewhat because it makes an interesting if ultimately flawed (IMO) case about the franchise which is something most scifi these days won't even attempt, that it was inevitable that you'd start labeling me a fascist.

All I can say is predictable - there's probably a corollary of Godwin's law on this very topic.

Don't argue with your fake version of what I said. If Rico has so much potential, he qualifies not just for MI, but for many other services and jobs that are less demanding. The book explicitly states that he does not. Ergo, the MI is not the most demanding service.

The book explicitly states that Rico doesn’t have the math or spatial awareness for piloting or most other Navy jobs, which are his preference.

I don’t have to argue how brilliant Rico is. That is one of your many strawmen in this thread. I however am arguing that he is not stupid, which is your claim.

I did not make the claim that the MI is the most demanding service. I just made the argument that it isn’t the least demanding service, which is your claim.

It’s easy to make and back my claims. Yours need proof that you have not submitted.

We could assume that the tester was lying, to force him into the position that he wanted. This would be on par with the lovely suggestion that a handicapped person would be tormented with cruel tasks until they gave up their quest for suffrage. But you didn't acknowledge the problems with your imaginary vision of a large electorate.

I did not make a claim of a large electorate – again, a subjective account. I simply said there’s no proof that it’s a small electorate.

Do you have anything other than straw men?

The notion that Rico is just ignorant and naive is nonsense. He's an idiot, who properly credits many people with his eventual success, which consists in realizing they were always smarter than he was. The book is written in Rico's voice and he's a dummy. Have you not read the book, in the sense of actually understanding it?

Yes, I both read it and comprehended the meaning. I've read it a few times since. I even have a copy somewhere.

Again, the argument that Rico is an idiot. The passage toward the end where he talks about his luck in people isn’t a tacit admission of his own vast stupidity. Stupid people don’t learn, even when provided with information. Rico isn’t brilliant, but he’s not stupid, so he has to work at what he does. By the end he is leading a platoon himself after passing Officer Candidate School – which is indicated in Heinlein’s version (just like our own) to be a very difficult undertaking.

His syllabus: math, science, galactography, xenology, hypnopedia, logistics, strategy and tactics, communications, military law, terrain reading, special weapons, psychology of leadership.

] That's not the point he was making. He was saying there are no rights, that everything has to be earned.

That is what I said. There are no rights other than those we create for ourselves, and yes, those have to be earned – by someone, somewhere. The argument comes to whether or not you understand that.

And mutual deterrence would have nothing to do with it? BS.

That presumes military equivalency, which is hardly a given over the history of man. Specious argument, in either the history of mankind, or the world created by Heinlein, that does not indicate that the bugs have the same capabilities.

This book argues in bad faith, trying to pollute the minds of children (both official and superannuated.)

And I need no more quotes from you to underscore that you don’t care what is in the book, you just HATE what you believe it says. This is all about politics for you.

Which is also extremely predictable.

And the handful of explicit statements that the defenders of this nasty, crazy vision of human society latch on to them, ignoring how ludicrous they are.

Right. Well, enjoy your ranting. Clearly you aren’t interested in anything but your own view point.

 

[stj]

The party line that anyone who criticizes Starship Troopers hasn't read it is just a travesty on the truth, then they just dismiss all criticisms as unfactual, regardless of the truth. For example, anyone who read in the novel about the strike on Buenos Aires in the novel knows perfectly well that the enemy could have dropped a much larger rock and destroyed the Earth for any practical purposes. But it is still claimed that there's no reason to think the aliens has no capacity to destroy planets? This is altogether typical of the novel's defenders. I believe this is because the novel is not really defensible.

For instance, supposedly everyone so foolish as to believe in the inalienable natural rights of human beings believes, for example, that everyone has the right to self-defense for the sake of survival. Those who believe in "constructed" rights, that have to be "earned" by some unnamed person(s), by contrast, sensibly believe that some unnamed person(s) can justly declared that this constructed right has not been earned. Or so the author of Starship Troopers and his mob of defenders would have us believe. To me, the true ignobility of such a position is shamefully obvious. It is much handier to "defend" the novel by claiming it is misrepresented.

 

[TeknoNurd]

2. This discussion on franchise is forgetting the history, that modern democracies, like the USA, FAILED.

A writer can put whatever he wants in his work.

Observe:

The United States and the Western democracies failed and it took the strong collectivist arm and military backbone of the Soviet Union to save the world which is why we're all communist now.

There. That's now a background to a non-existent scenario in which the entire world is Soviet and also it's a better world than the present one and more advanced and yadda yadda yadda.

Yes, that's how fiction works. The author posits a world, then tells a story within that world. Other authors have posited just the soviet world you describe, and made stories within them. Probably with similar arguments about their plausibility.

7. The vast majority of people did not have franchise, but franchise and government were NOT totalitarian, as non citizens made a good living working for and selling to the government. A Totalitarian government would TAKE.

To use the Soviet Union example again: It was possible for people to work and live well and sell things to the government in the Soviet Union, a country which also had a strong military presence in the government.

But other than analogies here: This is a society where basically everything electorally speaking is going to be weighted towards the Federal Services in general and obviously the military. You can't complain about the corruption or perks of military spending unless you've been a veteran, and you certainly can't argue about the moral worth of factory work.

Again, you forget the history given in the book. These people have learned that government is fragile and historically out for it's own ends. They have seen Fascists fail, Democracies fail, Totalitarians fail, Communists fail, Scientists fail, Elitists fail.

The contstruct of the Veteran franchise is a knowledge and experience that power abused ultimately fails. That government out for itself fails. We have no idea what their constitution or manifesto looks like, but for the society to work the way Heinlein suggests / illustrates, the government power must be extremely restricted. The fact that so many aspects of government are sub-contracted to the civillian sector would indicate this. The fact that franchise is "fashionable" rather than "covetted."

Even so, ST government is not said to be better or worse than previous ones... just that it is currently working. So, for whatever historical reasons (given as premise in the book) most of society DOESN'T CARE about franchise... and it's working... for now. If/When the government becomes unresponsive or (overly) self serving, as MIGHT have been beginning before the bug war started getting hot (when Papa Rico made the 'parasite' comment) the masses will (again) rebel, the system will (again) collapse, and somone else will (again) set up a new/old system. Rinse. Repeat.

 

[TeknoNurd]

Interesting discussion. I've read and listenned to ST several times, so there are some clarifications:

1. K9 and MI were at the bottom of Rico's "preferred" list, his choices of service. MI was not the "bottom service", it was just the bottom of what Rico chose, things he thought he could do, perhaps do well. Once his "preferred" list was exhausted, he'd be assigned to whatever Federal Service he could do that they neeeded. Rico was critisized for not preparing for any specific Federal Service on his list. He was a generalist in a specialist (military) world.

If MI was intended to be a high level service, demanding highly qualified soldiers, then Rico would have qualified for logistics, which he listed even though he didn't know what it is. Not knowing this is not a good sign in a Harvard acceptee. Given that this is the far future, maybe Harvard is a loser college?

I have not made the argument that MI was an elite service, though others have. I'm not overly convinced it is. It struck me as the lowest level ground force (regular army) in a souped up, Sci-Fi future.

Rico also did not have a 4.0 average, probably about 3.0(ish) as I recall. He was an average(ish) student. Also, a social jock(ish). He was on the track team, and at least in one mentioned race, came in 3rd. So he seemed competent generally, not outstanding in any area. So, like he didn't have a love of dogs for K-9, he didn't have a love of math (or puzzles) for logistics.

Plus, let's face it... Heinlein wanted him in MI for the story, he only need a 'plausible' reason to put him there.

Harvard... Even now, legacy students need not be terribly bright if their parents are sufficiently wealthy and generous.

 

[stj]

^^^Sorry I read your post in context with another poster's. It's quite true that Rico is portrayed as having average intelligence, literally speaking. But, the naivete is so astonishing, so extreme as to call into question Rico's possession of a normal human brain. Even as a backward preteen, for instance, Rico's version of the soldiers' dance struck me as unbelievable. If even I noticed how bizarre that was, it surely was.

 

[TeknoNurd]

^^^Sorry I read your post in context with another poster's. It's quite true that Rico is portrayed as having average intelligence, literally speaking. But, the naiveté is so astonishing, so extreme as to call into question Rico's possession of a normal human brain. Even as a backward preteen, for instance, Rico's version of the soldiers' dance struck me as unbelievable. If even I noticed how bizarre that was, it surely was.

I had a long, thorough post that got eaten (twice). You (everyone) lucked out because I'm not typing it all again, so this is the shorter version:

In a military totalitarian society, where war and the military are glorified, where soldiers are real men or sensual women, everyone single one a hero, happy, and desirable, Rico's naiveté about the Military and it's methods wouldn't make sense... which is yet another reason I don't see the ST world as militaristic totalitarian.

In the Starship Troopers world, Federal Service is actively discouraged by the government AND by civilians. We are told many people go for Federal Service for the wrong reasons, so there is obviously no propaganda machine telling people the right reasons. Earth is united, so the Military is not there, it is off world somewhere... doing... something. It's clear minor skirmishes aren't highly reported. In such a world, Rico's naiveté/ignorance about the military makes sense.

Further, Heinlein rather highlighted what Rico didn't know by giving us the recruiter dialog. The recruiter looked down on recruits, particularly Rico. Here is a kid presenting himself for Federal Service, something the recruiter values highly, but he's done nothing to prepare for any of the services he chose. Of course we are going to believe Rico is naive.

Realistically, this is a sci-if book. It posits a world vastly different than ours. Was Rico naive because that's how that society wanted him in relation to Federal Service, or was it bad writing. I guess that's the discussion. Those that believe there was a militaristic totalitarian system Rico's attitudes don't make sense. With the interpretation I've gone with, his naiveté makes sense (at least to me).

There are some groan worthy aspects to the book. There may be some inconsistencies. There may be aspects that may not have been fleshed out well. But, for me, the specific criticisms I've addressed are generally not the problem parts, for me. IMHO, the book raises some interesting what ifs.

 

[stj]

Rico is stunningly naive about all matters, sexual and social as well as military. If you want to say argue about whether "dummy" is the right word for that kind of real life person, that's one thing. Nonetheless the function of the character (if that is the right word) is to serve as a ventriloquist's dummy for the lecturing that is the tiny heart of this book.

Militarism is not a PR campaign for the common soldier, though it may entail that. But I think in practice that real militarism is much more likely to reward officers over the common soldier, who may even be mistreated as cannon fodder.

Militarism involves things like the preferred use of war (or simple murder of victims too weak to fight back in a war) as standard instruments of government foreign policy; repeated misallocation of budgetary resources to unnecessary weapons to service a whole military sector of the economy; widespread use of military personnel in other capacities in government and business; determination of social and political policy to serve the military, which covers things like education of high school students to funding research in universities, and ideological portrayals of outsiders as enemies with whom we are essentially always at war, even war to genocide, which is much more essential to militarism than glorification of the common soldier.

None of this involves publicizing the actual activities of real soldiers. Indeed, since so much of it is pointless, or unsavory, or downright vile, genuine news is often to be avoided. Embedding journalists to limit them to personal stories from a limited perspective or simple secrecy or other military controls on the media are more typical of genuine militarism.

The concept of "totalitarianism" is a nullity. But even if you did believe in such an incoherent notion, isn't the required presence of every single high school student in the country in an indoctrination class run by a veteran HMP teacher notably "totalitarian?" It's the idiot Rico who thinks there are no official grades and therefore it doesn't matter. He doesn't even figure out any different when he finds out that he himself was reported on by his very own HMP "teacher." Just because it was a favorable report doesn't make the system any better. It's basically government provocateurs given the chance to make reports on every single child in the world.