The 8th Doctor

[The Wormhole]

Rassilon was a joke...

how they attempted to bring him back as a 'name drop' for old fans... blugh... pathetic... the Doctor has visited Rassilon's tomb several times in the past... 5 times at once actually (The Five Doctor's)... and while he is said to know the secret to immortality, he lies in his tomb waiting for a 'worthy Time Lord'... not a chance to come in, take over and bitch slap reality with his pimp glove of omega... or whatever the f**k that was supposed to be...

Rassilon was a great and respected time lord... he had an era of time named after him for gods sake... he wasn't a dictator or war lord...

really annoyed me...

M

The End of Time might have been the first time Rassilon was depicted as an actual villain, but he never was an angel. He was implied to have a dark side in The Five Doctors, and various novels and audio dramas to feature Rassilon have depicted him as a manipulative tyrant.

 

[Methos]

most fans accept that the End of Time was just a fanwank by RTD... a large number of those completely ignore ever happened and just move onto 11 without the regenation...

shame as it could have been so much more... think they should have let Moffatt do it and write it well

M

 

[Methos]

The End of Time might have been the first time Rassilon was depicted as an actual villain, but he never was an angel. He was implied to have a dark side in The Five Doctors, and various novels and audio dramas to feature Rassilon have depicted him as a manipulative tyrant.

Which audio dramas?

please, give me a list here...

i've got them all on CD, all the EDA's, Gallifrey and others... let me know and i'll go back to them as i must have missed that...

M

 

[CaptainMatt]

Wasn't he meant to be the villian in some of the post-Zagreus syoryline in that other universe? was that really Rassilon? i thought it was just some shape shifter using his image or something but oh well...

 

[The Wormhole]

The End of Time might have been the first time Rassilon was depicted as an actual villain, but he never was an angel. He was implied to have a dark side in The Five Doctors, and various novels and audio dramas to feature Rassilon have depicted him as a manipulative tyrant.

Which audio dramas?

please, give me a list here...

i've got them all on CD, all the EDA's, Gallifrey and others... let me know and i'll go back to them as i must have missed that...

M

I'm mainly just copying what I read about him here and here.

 

[Methos]

checking those now...

from everything i know, Rassilon was a great Time Lord... he was pretty much known for inventing Time Lord culture, not as a despot... i'll go through those happily, though i don't actively trust Wiki as a noteworthy source lol

M

 

[CaptainMatt]

wiki is a fan source put together by fans and their silly little edits. It's like some kind of club, anyone can join.

 

[Methos]

well it's pretty solid info that Rassilon was so respected he had an era of time named after him... this is seen in 4th Doctor's TARDIS, 7th Doctor's TARDIS and in the TV movie with 8th Doctor...

i don't see it being likely that the Time Lords would name an era of time after a despot or evil Time Lord... doesn't ring true...

M

 

[CaptainMatt]

Even if he was the TV series seldom canonises what is said in a book or audio as I understand it, so nothing to worry about.
I just wish the TV Movie Master could have returned in an audio or have Roberts in the new series instead of John Simm but thats mainly cause Im such a huge Roberts' fan even outside his role as the Master.

 

[Methos]

yeah, he was a pretty good Master thinking about it...

I do definitely think they need to bring in another Time Lord... either as an enemy or a companion for 11... maybe Alex (Susan's child and Doctor's great grand son) as a companion, or The Rani as a bad guy...

M

 

[CaptainMatt]

Oooh I forgot about Susan and Alex, that could be loads of fun, and I hope if the Master is brought back, that he is more like Roberts' oozing evil than Simm lets dance around like a clown.
The Rani could have escaped the Time war easy. Last seen wasnt she a prisoner of the Tetraps heading to their homeworld? Does Dimensions in Time count?

 

[Allyn Gibson]

As an interesting aside, how would the future of Who have been altered had Fox gone ahead and picked up the show with McGann as the Doctor?

A few months ago I mused on that question on my blog; here's what I wrote at the time:

It's difficult to judge on its own merits, because it was meant to restart the franchise which had been off the air since 1989. As a pilot, it's pretty terrible. It doesn't give you a good idea of what kind of series this would lead to (apparently, producer Philip Segal intended a series that was like the Pertwee era crossed with The X-Files -- mostly contemporary Earthbound, with occasional jaunts off-planet), and it throws a lot of pointless information at the audience. (Imagine that "Encounter at Farpoint" spent its time explaining the 24th-century warp drive scale, the mating habits of Vulcans, and the line of succession to the Romulan throne, none of which had anything to do with the story. That's the level of pointless information Matthew Jacobs' script tosses out.) And its story is an utter mess. It's a story pitched at the fan audience, who already knows this stuff. It's not a story pitched at the non-fan.

And yet! Look at when this was first broadcast -- May 1996. Star Trek: Deep Space Nine was finishing up its fourth season. Star Trek: Voyager was finishing up its second. Babylon 5 was at some point in its run. Doctor Who's "Enemy Within" might not have been on par with the writing of Babylon 5 or Star Trek: Deep Space Nine at that point in their runs, but it's about equal in style to Star Trek: Voyager. Its similar in the sense that, like Voyager, "Enemy Within" is a visceral piece of entertainment. The plotting isn't compelling, the dialogue has moments of sparkle and wit, and the less thought the viewer puts into the episode the better, because it will all come tumbling down with the briefest of thoughts.

I don't really think, "Oh, what might have been!" with this. That's not to say that there wouldn't have been an interesting series to come out of this -- McGann and Ashbrook mesh well on screen, and they could have had a good Mulder/Scully dynamic for five to seven years, though maybe not as sexless -- but we'd have lost far more than we gained. For one thing, we'd have lost much of the literature of the eighth Doctor with an ongoing television series because the novels and comics would have had to service that, not break their own ground. I love that I live in a world with The Adventuress of Henrietta Street, "The Land of Happy Endings," and Shada; a world with a Paul McGann series would almost certainly have none of those. But it's also a fair certainty that we wouldn't have had a Doctor Who redone by Russell T. Davies, and we wouldn't have had Christopher Eccleston and David Tennant and Matt Smith helming the TARDIS in that world.

Extending off a thought in there...

Would a FOX Doctor Who have lasted five or seven years? Probably not. On second thought, I'd give it three at most in this alternate world.

 

[CaptainMatt]

Three years could have been a respectable run for McGann's Doctor I see nothing bad about not lasting 6 or 7 as likely McGann would have bowed out before then.

I like the TV Movie and think it served its purpose as a pilot it is just sad TPTB did not think so-some fans too. It had more going for it than the Eccleston or Smith pilot even though both had their moments as well.

 

[Iamnotspock]

Rassilon was a joke...

how they attempted to bring him back as a 'name drop' for old fans... blugh... pathetic... the Doctor has visited Rassilon's tomb several times in the past... 5 times at once actually (The Five Doctor's)... and while he is said to know the secret to immortality, he lies in his tomb waiting for a 'worthy Time Lord'... not a chance to come in, take over and bitch slap reality with his pimp glove of omega... or whatever the f**k that was supposed to be...

Rassilon was a great and respected time lord... he had an era of time named after him for gods sake... he wasn't a dictator or war lord...

really annoyed me...

M

Brigadier Lethbridge-Stewart: "I thought this Rassilon was supposed to be rather a good Time Lord?"

The second Doctor: "So the official history says, but there are many rumours and legends to the contrary..."

- from The Five Doctors

 

[Captaindemotion]

As an interesting aside, how would the future of Who have been altered had Fox gone ahead and picked up the show with McGann as the Doctor?

A few months ago I mused on that question on my blog; here's what I wrote at the time:

It's difficult to judge on its own merits, because it was meant to restart the franchise which had been off the air since 1989. As a pilot, it's pretty terrible. It doesn't give you a good idea of what kind of series this would lead to (apparently, producer Philip Segal intended a series that was like the Pertwee era crossed with The X-Files -- mostly contemporary Earthbound, with occasional jaunts off-planet), and it throws a lot of pointless information at the audience. (Imagine that "Encounter at Farpoint" spent its time explaining the 24th-century warp drive scale, the mating habits of Vulcans, and the line of succession to the Romulan throne, none of which had anything to do with the story. That's the level of pointless information Matthew Jacobs' script tosses out.) And its story is an utter mess. It's a story pitched at the fan audience, who already knows this stuff. It's not a story pitched at the non-fan.

And yet! Look at when this was first broadcast -- May 1996. Star Trek: Deep Space Nine was finishing up its fourth season. Star Trek: Voyager was finishing up its second. Babylon 5 was at some point in its run. Doctor Who's "Enemy Within" might not have been on par with the writing of Babylon 5 or Star Trek: Deep Space Nine at that point in their runs, but it's about equal in style to Star Trek: Voyager. Its similar in the sense that, like Voyager, "Enemy Within" is a visceral piece of entertainment. The plotting isn't compelling, the dialogue has moments of sparkle and wit, and the less thought the viewer puts into the episode the better, because it will all come tumbling down with the briefest of thoughts.

I don't really think, "Oh, what might have been!" with this. That's not to say that there wouldn't have been an interesting series to come out of this -- McGann and Ashbrook mesh well on screen, and they could have had a good Mulder/Scully dynamic for five to seven years, though maybe not as sexless -- but we'd have lost far more than we gained. For one thing, we'd have lost much of the literature of the eighth Doctor with an ongoing television series because the novels and comics would have had to service that, not break their own ground. I love that I live in a world with The Adventuress of Henrietta Street, "The Land of Happy Endings," and Shada; a world with a Paul McGann series would almost certainly have none of those. But it's also a fair certainty that we wouldn't have had a Doctor Who redone by Russell T. Davies, and we wouldn't have had Christopher Eccleston and David Tennant and Matt Smith helming the TARDIS in that world.

Extending off a thought in there...

Would a FOX Doctor Who have lasted five or seven years? Probably not. On second thought, I'd give it three at most in this alternate world.

I wonder how things would have gone if it had lasted 5 - 7 years or so but if McGann had opted to leave after a series. How would a US audience have responded to regeneration? Fair enough, some US shows have gotten away with a change of lead actor or re-casting a character, but others haven't. Guess we'll never know!

 

[Anwar]

Funny thing is, wasn't Tim Curry going to be the 8th Doctor til he had to pull out and he suggested they cast McGann?

Imagine, he trades in one "Doctor" typecast for another...

 

[Methos]

they also had Anthony Head try for the role of 8th Doctor and was considored the front runner to be the 9th Doctor... both times he lost out

M

 

[CaptainMatt]

Paul was not the only McGann to be considered, one of his brothers also was being considered for the part but I do not know if he actually auditioned.

 

[Captaindemotion]

Funny thing is, wasn't Tim Curry going to be the 8th Doctor til he had to pull out and he suggested they cast McGann?

Imagine, he trades in one "Doctor" typecast for another...

Oh, I never heard that. That could've been interesting. Though I think Tim would have been better as The Master.

 

[DWF]

Funny thing is, wasn't Tim Curry going to be the 8th Doctor til he had to pull out and he suggested they cast McGann?

Imagine, he trades in one "Doctor" typecast for another...

Tim Curry was one of many names mentioned as possible 8th Doctors.

Meanwhile, Segal and Wagg began the gruelling process of finding an actor to play the Doctor. To this end, they secured the services of British casting agents John and Ros Hubbard. In January and February, enormous lists of actors (most -- but not all -- of them British) were compiled; amongst the names were pop singer Adam Ant, Rowan Atkinson (Mr Bean; he also played a future incarnation of the Doctor in the 1999 Doctor Who spoof Curse Of The Fatal Death), Chris Barrie (Red Dwarf), Sean Bean (Goldeneye), Jeremy Brett (The Adventures Of Sherlock Holmes), Jim Broadbent (Moulin Rouge; another future Doctor from Curse Of The Fatal Death), Pierce Brosnan (the fifth James Bond), Simon Callow (Four Weddings And A Funeral), Martin Clunes (the British version of Men Behaving Badly), Robbie Coltrane (the British version of Cracker), Michael Crawford (the musical version of The Phantom Of The Opera), Tim Curry (The Rocky Horror Picture Show), Timothy Dalton (the fourth James Bond), Rupert Everett (My Best Friend's Wedding), Ralph Fiennes (Schindler's List), Hugh Grant (Four Weddings And A Funeral; yet another future Doctor from Curse Of The Fatal Death), Robert Hardy (All Creatures Great And Small), Anthony Stewart Head (the television version of Buffy The Vampire Slayer), John Hurt (Midnight Express), Eric Idle (Monty Python's Flying Circus), Derek Jacobi (I, Claudius), Ben Kingsley (Gandhi), Rob Lowe (St Elmo's Fire), Malcolm McDowell (Star Trek: Generations), Ian McKellen (X-Men), Sam Neill (Jurassic Park), Peter O'Toole (Lawrence Of Arabia), Michael Palin (Monty Python's Flying Circus), Jonathan Pryce (Tomorrow Never Dies; he would also play the Master in Curse Of The Fatal Death), Aidan Quinn (Legends Of The Fall), Tony Slattery (Whose Line Is It Anyway), Patrick Stewart (Star Trek: The Next Generation), and Peter Ustinov (Death On The Nile). Around mid-March, an effort was also made to approach Paul McGann (Alien 3), but the actor was unavailable; his brother Mark had in fact auditioned for the role some days earlier, on March 1st. The early favourite was Irish actor Liam Cunningham, but by the start of April, it was discovered that other commitments would prevent him from agreeing to the role.