What is important...

[Loken]

Well, having been involved in a couple productions now, seen a couple others close up, and working on my own now, I think I can put down some thoughts. It amazes me how fan productions sometimes think things are important that really aren't and they miss out on what IS important.

Things that are important:

1) Its all about Story.

Everything else is secondary. Special Effects? Give me a break. You can get anyone to do this and they look better than TOS. Sets? There are sets available and you just need to ask. Look at what Phoenix did without a bridge.

But what do you get without a good story? You get Of Gods and Men, the most disappointing fan production ever. Great acting, lousy story, and thus a lousy production. You get a bloated "Blood and Fire" from Phase 2, which should have been a single episode buts gets bumped up to two episodes and the story falls apart, drags and generally is mediocre.

And how do you get a good story? Get good writers. Not someone who has an idea. Get a story editor with experience. And don't let the rank and file have input. Sorry, but they aren't pros and their feedback will more often than not be lousy.

And go to a Robert McKee seminar. The godfather of Hollywood screen writing. I am a pretty damn good amateur writer. And I learned a TON at his seminar. Totally changed my (writing) life. You want to do the work, prove you can be serious. Get McKee's book, "Story" if you can't afford the $800 for the seminar.

2) Acting is a close second. Phoenix, very good acting (some pros). OGAM, great acting (pros). Even P2 has picked up in this department. John Muenchrath has become a really good McCoy in P2 and Charles Root has gotten better. Todd Haberkorn is a professional actor and his Sulu is the best yet. Star Trek: Secret Voyage has gone out looking for people with acting experience. But those fan films with a guy and his buddies are unwatchable in my book.

(BTW, Exeter's Tasaurian Intersection seems to be the exception to this rule. That was pretty good acting by fans.)

3) Get a good team of passionate people. This will reduce stress, improve quality and make your life easier. You want to work with people you like. If you got someone with an unbridled ego LOSE HIM. He will fuck you over. Life is too short. Have fun with people you like.

Ask around. The fan community is a very small group. Everyone seems to know everyone else. It amazes me how much people from other productions know about the issues we have had with a certain person. But also, don't take one person's word. Ask a bunch of people before you invite someone to join your team. I listened to one guy who had a grudge against someone and bitched constantly about him. It turns out it was HE who was the real problem. So ask around.


Now if you have the above three things, Story, Acting, People, you got it made.


Now things that fans worry too much about:

1. "If the bridge isn't perfect people will notice". What? Like 2% of people will? Give me a break. Make it good, not perfect. Sets and props are BACKGROUND. Your acting is way more important.

2. "Fans will think this will be cool". Don't worry so much about the super serious fan who lives, eats and breathes Trek. You are trying to reach tens of thousands, not hundreds. Our former partner was all geeked about starting our first TOS episode from the end of "Turnabout Intruder". Pick up the new story at the final scene because it would be so cool and fans would love it. REALLY? Who the hell even remembers the last scene? And that episode sucked. So you are catering to your vanity and a tiny, tiny % of fans who actually remember that. I am as big a Star Trek fans as ANYONE and I don't even remember that scene and I wouldn't give a damn.

3. We want to build these sets because it would be cool. The ONLY things that matters is what you NEED. What shows up on the screen? The rest is irrelevant. So if your set is a museum, no one cares. Sure, it will make you feel good, but who the hell cares outside of your crew?


So finally, there is one HUGE mistake people make, and it blew me away when I looked at Secret Voyages Facebook page and saw that they are doing it right. It is one of the basic principles of the movie industry. See if you can figure it out. If not, give me a buzz.

Alec Peters

http://startrekauction.blogspot.com/

 

[Captain Atkin]

I'm a trained actor with a background in both film and theatre. I went to college to study acting and screenwriting, and I appreciate good acting and writing in Trek fan-films. That said... it is important to remember that these are fan-films. Not every film has to be as good as Farragut or New Voyages. Not every actor has to be a professional actor, and not every script produced has to be an award winner. To me, the important thing is that the people who are making these films are having FUN! I think that as a community, we sometimes take ourselves a little too seriously, and forget that having fun is really what this is all about.

I look at the Trek fan films I made when I was in high school. Boy, were they dreadful! But you can tell that everyone making them was having fun! Part of the fun making these films is that we get to live out our childhood fantasies. Who among us hasn't wanted to play Captain Kirk or Mr Spock? I think that anyone with a camcorder who wants to make a fun little fan film has the right to do that. Posting a list of rules to follow in order to make a good fan-film seems a bit much to me. I appreciate what you are trying to say, but not all fan films can be of the same caliber and quality of New Voyages. That is setting the bar too high. New Voyages (Phase II) is a fan series that has had numerous Trek alumni working on it, and they are in a league of their own.

As far as "input" goes, I think that any person who is volunteering their free time working on a fan film has the right to make story suggestions during the creative process. If you start looking at the people who are working behind the scenes as just being part of the "rank and file", you are at risk of devaluing their contributions. Just because someone isn't a professioanl writer doesn't mean that they couldn't have a good idea worth sharing. The person who is writing the story can choose to use or ignore those ideas. I see no harm with team members sharing their thoughts and ideas, because in the end, it is up to the Writer, Director, and Producers as to whether or not those ideas get used.

On a final note: if you are going to make a list of "suggestions" on how to make good fan-films, I don't see a need to list by name the films that you didn't like as examples of "bad films". Everything is subjective, and your views are not going to be shared by all. Just because you have worked on a couple of productions doesn't mean that you are an authority on what makes a good fan-film.

 

[USS Intrepid]

You know I agree with much of what you're saying here, but there's ways to say things without taking potshots at us "guys and our buddies."

Just because people may be amateurs, doesn't mean they suck or lack perspective.

 

[MarsWeeps]

I am a pretty damn good amateur writer.

And humble too!!

 

[Captain Randy Hall]

Nick, your comments remind me of Pixar Studios' motto: "If there isn't a good story, then it's not a film worth making." This is pretty surprising when you consider the computer animation and all sorts of bells and whistles that can be plugged into one of their projects.

I have a friend who won't watch fan films because he considers the acting to be subpar. Oh, there are a few exceptions, but I understand his point.

But you're right: The story should come first.

 

[USS Intrepid]

There are loads of us who have been saying story comes first, that revelation is nothing new here. And yes, bad acting is distracting, but to label every amateur in every fanfilm so is really, really unfair.

And Randy, I think you were talking to Loken there, not me.

 

[MikeH92467]

Good acting and good production values can go a long way toward covering up a weak story in a one-off situation. I'll use as an example "Larry Crowne", which starred Tom Hanks and Julia Roberts. Well-acted, first rate production values made for a pleasant 100 minutes or so, despite an incredibly weak story. Now compare that to (insert a really weak fan effort here) where the acting and production standards aren't very good and the weaknesses in the story really just hang out.

 

[Balrog]

Story, acting, directing, editing, production values. Many fan films focus largely on the production values ("Can we make it look like Trek?") the most, most times at the expense of the other areas. Stories have gotten stronger. So has acting a bit (I disagree with you about Exeter, Loken).

Directing and editing scenes is still rough in most productions.

 

[Captain Randy Hall]

There are loads of us who have been saying story comes first, that revelation is nothing new here. And yes, bad acting is distracting, but to label every amateur in every fanfilm so is really, really unfair.

And Randy, I think you were talking to Loken there, not me.

Ooops. Sorry. Too much eggnog....

 

[Maurice]

I agree with Nick that Loken is making some valid points, but they're points that are already active points of discussion within this forum. In fact, the Fan Filmmaker's Primer and Fan Film Writer's Primer threads were created specifically to try to address some of the items Loken mentions. I think it's important not to lecture but to share ideas about techniques and what works. If I have any disappointment, it's that I wish more people would chime in with tips and thoughts.

The best advice I can give to any wanna-be or beginning filmmaker is to check your ego at the door and be willing to hear people out when they critique you. You might not agree with it, but the mark of someone serious is the ability to graciously accept that the audience is never wrong about what they like or don't like.

I actually find the harsher (and most specific) critiques the most valuable. You learn very little from people telling you you're wonderful, but you learn loads from facing your mistakes.

Fer instance, here are some of the more recent comments (out of 144) on my most watched video. The good and the bad feedback stays there without comment on my or the group's part.

• Honestly I disliked this because it did not appeal to my liking. it was a good idea and nicely done but I did not like it. Dislike does not mean hate.
• not funny!!
• Funny
• i love it
• Um.... o_O
• I won't lie, I laughed and laughed and laughed. Also felt very awkward watching this at the library.

 

[Barbreader]

On the one hand, I always say, give me a good story and good actors, and you can place me in front of an empty stage, have somebody come out and describe what would be on the stage (or film) if there was background and other furnishings... and I'm good. (Or just imply it... I'm still good.) All the CGI and sets can't overcome weak writing or bad acting.

I've enjoyed Kid Trek (OK, they were young teens, with only one twelve year old)... when the kids carried their parts and the kid who wrote it wrote better at 14 than I could at 54 (Yes, Luke Sutton, now 20 and in film school, I'm talking about Star Trek Unity... the early shows had no green screens, no costumes, space battles made up of drawings of starships in crayon... see, I really did watch the first few films...).

I have also endured Trek which I thought was badly written and badly acted where they were following the Trek tradition of trying to make a point, and therefore felt it was a legitimate use of Trek, even when I found the point obnoxious. (I am NOT going to be specific when I an being negative).

One of the things about fan films is that they demonstrate how broad the appeal Trek has had. Also, the variety fans come up with is never ending. I no longer even think, "OK, that's got to be the most DIFFERENT use of Trek ever..." because I am sure somebody will come up with something else with a new take, new medium, new approach, and it will be even more inventive.

In creating pictures, people can use charcoal or oil, water colors or mixed mediums... Trek is almost a medium for expression.

Yes, there is the 'recreate it' crowd, "Make more Trek like Paramount SHOULD have made..." and I usually enjoy their stuff. But the world of fan films is so broad and creative, I am always surprised anew.

Creativity is always risky, and more often than not, really creative stuff is a flop. But when it hits, it really rises.

So I would like to thank people who try to do something truly creative.

 

[jamesmc]

The single most important thing about making a Star Trek fan film is HAVING FUN.
You can't make a dime from it, so you better be enjoying it with your friends or it simply is not worth the time to do it.
James Cawley

 

[Loken]

Captain Atkin:

A couple points.

1) I agree, fun is the most important thing. It is why we do this. No one is making money and almost everyone is volunteering their time. But if you focus on "fun" first and everything else is secondary, well, you will have neither fun nor a good product. The stress of your disorganization will take the fun out of it. I have already seen that first hand and it is a basic rule of life. We worked with someone for 12 months who was the most disorganized, process-ignoring, "artist" I have ever worked with and it was a NIGHTMARE. Well you know, his disorganization took all the fun out of it for my partner and I. Organization and process is what makes things run smoothly. Your ATTITUDE will determine the fun you have.

2) I am not posting "rules", I am posting feedback. Take it or not, I don't care. But I coached professionally and John Wooden always said "Feedback is the single most important element of learning." I am NOT a professional actor, I am a successful entrepreneur who believes you learn everything you can about a market before you enter it. You seek out advice and read everything. If you are closed minded to feedback, you will not grow.

3) You set your goals. If your goal is to have fun, fine, then you do things one way. However if your goal is to produce a superior product, you have to have a little professionalism, which is where my post comes in.

4) You say:

As far as "input" goes, I think that any person who is volunteering their free time working on a fan film has the right to make story suggestions during the creative process. If you start looking at the people who are working behind the scenes as just being part of the "rank and file", you are at risk of devaluing their contributions. Just because someone isn't a professional writer doesn't mean that they couldn't have a good idea worth sharing. The person who is writing the story can choose to use or ignore those ideas. I see no harm with team members sharing their thoughts and ideas, because in the end, it is up to the Writer, Director, and Producers as to whether or not those ideas get used.

I totally disagree. You succeed in leading an organization by having a person stick to what they do best. Their "core competency". It doesn't devalue someone to ask them to stick to what they know. So what, everyone should give the editor their feedback? Tell the director what to do? Tell the DP how the shot should look like? You do things the way you want. But your suggestion is a prescription for chaos. A person in charge of something doesn't want everyone on the production making suggestions. Sure, since you have a background in screenwriting, I would run my script by you. But when I wanted feedback on my script I went to Marco Palmieri, the editor of Star Trek books for Pocket Books for 10 years. His feedback was awesome because that is what he does. That is HIS "core competency". I am sure the Director doesn't give a damn about what Marco thinks about how to shoot the episode.

Again, you do it the way YOU want. But what I am suggesting is ways to ave a more successful and less stressful production.

On a final note: if you are going to make a list of "suggestions" on how to make good fan-films, I don't see a need to list by name the films that you didn't like as examples of "bad films". Everything is subjective, and your views are not going to be shared by all. Just because you have worked on a couple of productions doesn't mean that you are an authority on what makes a good fan-film.

Sorry you don't like my opinions. I am well know for my NY heritage that makes me speak my mind. If you can't take the heat, don't stay in the kitchen. I am not saying anything that hasn't been said. And I am not going to stifle my opinion because it offends your sensibilities. Maurice Navidad says it well in his post. No offense meant. Heck I know the guys at Phase II well and like them. But if you think that is going to stop me from telling them that a 2-part "Blood and Fire" was a mistake, you are wrong. All due respect. And you better believe I am going to seek out feedback about my production.

James Cawley is right, it IS about having fun. But the difference between a production that is successful and runs with less stress and a production that is chaotic, is organization and process. That is what my post was about. That is very left brain. And that is why artists (right brain) don't run studios. Fundamentally you and I think differently. I have spent my life leading teams and organizations. That is a very different (though no better or worse) than being an artist. I am seeking out acting coaches and taking acting classes so I understand better that process. I am seeking feedback from experts. That is how you grow.

Again, my favorite quote from John Wooden:

"Feedback is the single most important element in learning."

Alec

PS: I am not expert, this is just my experience. I have read a LOT of this forum to learn from others. We are all just sharing information and learning.

 

[Barbreader]

1) No one in their right mind discussing fan films will argue with James Cawley, period. That goes for the other Paramount alum in this board, too, blast me all you want. I'll stand by that statement.

2) I'm from New York, too. There is a line between speaking your mind and saying things that are harmful and useless. I have and will continue to, at times, say negative things about specific productions, but one of the criteria is 'can they hear me?' I have fallen into the error of doing a review demanded by a filmmaker, then getting slammed because it wasn't "This is a great fan film! If you liked 'World Enough and Time,' you'll love THIS." Guess what? The film wasn't in my top tier of films, let alone equal to what I think is my personal all-time best Star Trek Fan Film (Yes, TTI lovers, I only look at finished films...).

At that time, I said what I thought. I now try to read the reactions of the filmmaker to other critics when I respond to their films. Not everyone can benefit from honest evaluation. If you really want to help people grow as filmmakers, you also have to consider who you are speaking to and what they are able to hear. For some, it's far more effective to talk about what you saw was good in the film, and just make suggestions on ways to improve them to be 'even better'... even if you didn't think it was particularly good.

Yes, sometimes people lick their wounds and learn something from a blast, but for me, the idea is to focus the critique to improve the filmmaker's next film. If I don't think I can do that effectively, well, I often don't say anything for a while.

And yes, there are people on this board who would prefer I never say anything. Too bad!

That said, wow, I disagree with a lot of the negative comments about Blood and Fire. The final version watched as a single 2 hour film is, IMHO, a great film. But then, I didn't watch ANY of it until the entire thing was released and in final form.

 

[MikeH92467]

I felt Blood and Fire was a great concept, well produced and well acted. But I did feel that story just didn't measure up to what it could have been. However, that criticism has to be taken in context. Phase II has set high standards and is consistently raising them. Judged in the overall universe of fan film making Blood and Fire is an outstanding achievement and should be acknowledged as such. Measured against their own standards I didn't feel it measured up quite as well World Enough and Time or even "To Serve All My Days".

 

[Balrog]

The single most important thing about making a Star Trek fan film is HAVING FUN.
You can't make a dime from it, so you better be enjoying it with your friends or it simply is not worth the time to do it.
James Cawley

True words about life in general, James.

 

[Maurice]

1) No one in their right mind discussing fan films will argue with James Cawley, period. That goes for the other Paramount alum in this board, too, blast me all you want. I'll stand by that statement.

I'm in my right mind, and I'll argue with James Cawley or anyone else when I think they are incorrect on a matter.

Not that I'm disagreeing with him on the point he made upthread, however. Fan films can't make money, so the only reason to do one, really, is to make something you want to make. If you aren't enjoying the process of making one, you're likely just a masochist.

That said, wow, I disagree with a lot of the negative comments about Blood and Fire. The final version watched as a single 2 hour film is, IMHO, a great film. But then, I didn't watch ANY of it until the entire thing was released and in final form.

I respectfully disagree. It's not a "great" film. At 50 minutes it could have been taut and dramatic but the decision to stretch the story into a two-parter renders it overlong and frequently tedious (Klingons watching TV, I'm looking at you). It hasn't the snap of World Enough and Time.

Again, this gets back to the script. Fix it on the page...and watch the number of pages.

 

[USS Intrepid]

I'd say it's also pretty important not to take yourself too seriously.

 

[Maurice]

I'd say it's also pretty important not to take yourself too seriously.

That's not a problem. I never take you seriously.

 

[USS Intrepid]

All part of my cunning plan.