Two Languages? English and Vulcan.

[T'Girl]

I was in a conversation with friends the other day, and thought of the episode Amok Time.

My circle of friends that day included one who only spoke English, some who spoke English badly and the rest of us spoke both English and Spanish. The English speaker was sometimes left out of the conversation. I've had this happen to me on occasion, my best friend's family is from India and I don't understand some of their conversations while in her parent's home. All you can do is be patient. When you live in a city with multiple languages this just happens.

I was wondering about the conversations between the Vulcans in Amok Time, were they all in English? Were Kirk and McCoy basically standing there during some of the exchanges, solely in the Vulcan native language, clueless about what was being said?

Obviously the actors were using English, but in many movies the characters will be speaking German or Japanese, but the audience will hear English.

V.S.C.: USS Enterprise from Vulcan Space Central. Permission granted. And from all of Vulcan, welcome. Is Commander Spock with you?

SPOCK: This is Spock.

V.S.C.: Standby to activate your central viewer, please.

T'PRING : Spock, it is I.

SPOCK: T'Pring, parted from me and never parted, never and always touching and touched. We meet at the appointed place.

T'PRING : Spock, parted from me and never parted, never and always touching and touched. I await you.

UHURA: She's lovely, Mister Spock. Who is she?

SPOCK: She is T'Pring. My wife.

I've highlighted the portions of the dialog that I believe are in Vulcan, and not English. Spock and T'Pring's exchange sounds like words out of a formal ritual, and for that reason was in Vulcan.

KIRK: Bones, you know who that is? T'Pau. The only person to ever turn down a seat on the Federation Council.

MCCOY: T'Pau. Officiating at Spock's wedding?

KIRK: He never mentioned that his family was this important.

Up through this point in the episode, except for Spock's exchange with T'Pring, and a few Vulcan phrases, everything has been in English. Exchanges between the Vulcans in the following scenes are in Vulcan.

T'PAU: Spock, are our ceremonies for outworlders?

SPOCK: They are not outworlders. They are my friends. I am permitted this.

SPOCK: This is Kirk.

KIRK: Ma'am.

T'PAU: And thee are called?

MCCOY: Leonard McCoy, ma'am.

T'PAU: Thee names these out worlders friends. How does thee pledge their behaviour?

SPOCK: With my life, T'Pau.

T'PAU: What they are about to see comes down from the time of the beginning, without change. This is the Vulcan heart. This is the Vulcan soul. This is our way. Kah-if-farr.

Now there, T'Pau didn't say "What you (Kirk and McCoy) are about to see ..." She was speaking directly to Spock.

T'PRING: Kal-if-fee!

KIRK: What is it? What happened?

T'PAU: She chooses the challenge.

MCCOY: With him?

T'PAU: He acts only if cowardice is seen. She will choose her champion.

KIRK: Spock?

T'PAU: Do not attempt to speak with him, Kirk. He is deep in the plak-tow, the blood fever. He will not speak with thee again until he has passed through what is to come. If thee wishes to depart, thee may leave now.

KIRK: We'll stay.

T'PAU: Spock chose his friends well.

MCCOY: Ma'am, I don't understand. Are you trying to say that she rejected him? That she doesn't want him?

T'PAU: He will have to fight for her. It is her right.

Again we switched to English for T'Pau's conversation with Kirk and McCoy.

T'PAU: T'Pring, thee has chosen the kal-if-fee, the challenge. Thee are prepared to become the property of the victor?

T'PRING: I am prepared.

T'PAU: Spock, does thee accept the challenge according to our laws and customs?

KIRK: Think Spock can take him?

MCCOY: I doubt it. Not in his present condition.

T'PAU: T'Pring, thee will choose thy champion.

T'PRING: As it was in the dawn of our days, as it is today, as it will be for all tomorrows, I make my choice.

T'PRING: This one.

STONN: No! I am to be the one. It was agreed.

T'PAU: Be silent.

STONN: Hear me. I have made the ancient claim. I claim the right. The woman is ...

T'PAU: Kroykah!

STONN: I ask forgiveness.

Kirk and McCoy aside conversation would be in English.

The only part of that exchange that I'm unsure of is T'Pring's "This one." Which I see being in either Vulcan like the rest of her little speech, or English directly for Kirk's benefit.

T'PAU: Kirk? T'Pring is within her rights, but our laws and customs are not binding on thee. Thee are free to decline with no harm on thyself.

Kirk already knew that T'Pring was going to select a champion, and obviously she waked up to him, pointed to him, and said "something" important. He wouldn't have had to understand exactly what she said.

SPOCK: T'Pau.

T'PAU: Thee speaks?

SPOCK: My friend does not understand.

T'PAU: The choice has been made, Spock. It is up to him now.

SPOCK: He does not know. I will do what I must, T'Pau, but not with him! His blood does not burn. He is my friend!

T'PAU: It is said thy Vulcan blood is thin. Are thee Vulcan or are thee human?

SPOCK: I burn, T'Pau. My eyes are flame. My heart is flame. Thee has the power, T'Pau. In the name of my fathers, forbid. Forbid! T'Pau. I plead with thee! I beg!

T'PAU: Thee has prided thyself on thy Vulcan heritage. It is decided.

KIRK: What happens to Spock if I decline?

T'PAU: Another champion will be selected. Do not interfere, Kirk. Keep thy place.

MCCOY: You can't do it, Jim.

KIRK: I can't?

MCCOY: No. She said their laws and customs were not binding on you.

KIRK: And you said Spock might not be able to handle him. If I can knock Spock out without really hurting him

MCCOY: In this climate? If the heat doesn't get you, the thin air will. You can't do it!

KIRK: If I get into any trouble, I'll quit. And Spock wins, and honour is satisfied.

MCCOY: Jim, listen, if you

KIRK: Bones. He's my first officer and my friend. I disregarded Starfleet orders to bring him here. Another thing, that's T'Pau of Vulcan. All of Vulcan in one package. How can I back out in front of her?

T'PAU: It is done. Kirk, decide.

KIRK: I accept the challenge.

T'PAU: Here begins the act of combat for possession of the woman, T'Pring. As it was at the time of the beginning, so it is now. Bring forth the lirpa.

There T'Pau (who beginning speaking while standing by Spock on the raised platform) sound like she is speaking officially.

T'PAU: If both survive the lirpa, combat will continue with the ahn woon.

KIRK: What do you mean, if both survive?

T'PAU: This combat is to the death.

KIRK: Now wait a minute, ma'am. Who said anything about a fight to the death?

MCCOY: These men are friends. To force them to fight until one of them is killed

T'PAU: I can forgive such a display only once. Challenge was given and lawfully accepted. It has begun. Let no one interfere .

That last was in English for Kirk's benefit as T"Pau left the small platform. Now to be sure, there are a few word and phrases that are overtly made up Vulcan language.

But what about the rest?

 

[Timewalker]

It's obvious that some words and phrases were in Vulcan. I am reasonably sure the rest of the dialogue would have been understood, courtesy of the Universal Translator (certain phrases would not have been translated, simply because there would never have been any reason to program them into the Universal Translator).

 

[A.V.I.A.F.]

Now there, T'Pau didn't say "What you (Kirk and McCoy) are about to see ..." She was speaking directly to Spock.

I believe she said "what thee are about to see..." and not "they" which would mean T'Pau was speaking directly to Kirk & McCoy. "Thee" is the plural familiar form (now archaic); think "you guys."

As for your other points, it may be very possible that Vulcan was being spoken, but I think if you are relying on the Terrans confused and stun reactions from time to time during this episode, that might have been more the product of the strangeness of the Vulcan ritual rather than denoting a lack of understanding of the Vulcan language. In other words, even if every line of dialogue was "spoken" in English, I think that Kirk & Co. would have been equally confused and they would have said and done the same things.

 

[Elder Knight]

I note that the Vulcan sometimes sounds like Latin, (though not quite correct Latin).

 

[Tiberius]

I agree with just about everything you said, however for this part:

T'PAU: What they are about to see comes down from the time of the beginning, without change. This is the Vulcan heart. This is the Vulcan soul. This is our way. Kah-if-farr.

I think it is more likely that she says:


T'PAU: What thee are about to see comes down from the time of the beginning, without change. This is the Vulcan heart. This is the Vulcan soul. This is our way. Kah-if-farr.

In this case she is speaking to Kirk and McCoy. I don't think she'd be speaking to Spock here, because Spock would already know this stuff.

 

[Mutai Sho-Rin]

^ ^ ^ ^ ^
The difference in that second word between "they" and "thee" completely flips our impression of the audience for that line. Does anyone have an actual script for this ep?

 

[Ronald Held]

I presumed that the ritual words were in old High Vulcan.

 

[Kolrad]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it always bugs me that T'Pau uses the wrong pronoun form. "Thee" is an objective form; it should not be used as the subject or with a "being verb" like "is" or "are."

Saying "Are thee Vulcan or are thee human?" is as wrong as saying "Him is a Vulcan."

It should be "Art thou Vulcan or art thou human?" if she's addressing one person; "Are ye Vulcans or are ye humans?" if she's addressing two or more.

Unless the goal was to make the lines sound otherworldly by using the wrong form.

 

[Sindatur]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it always bugs me that T'Pau uses the wrong pronoun form. "Thee" is an objective form; it should not be used as the subject or with a "being verb" like "is" or "are."

Saying "Are thee Vulcan or are thee human?" is as wrong as saying "Him is a Vulcan."

It should be "Art thou Vulcan or art thou human?" if she's addressing one person; "Are ye Vulcans or are ye humans?" if she's addressing two or more.

Unless the goal was to make the lines sound otherworldly by using the wrong form.

Eh, considering how racist T'Pau is, I wouldn't be surprised if she only bothered with "Broken English" when it comes to whatever language Starfleet Speaks

 

[Tiberius]

The transcript of the ep at Chakotaya says it is They and not Thee, but to me the word she speaks sounds exactly like all the other times she said Thee.

 

[MacLeod]

I always thought she said 'Thee' is a more archaic way of saying "What you are...

 

[Greg Cox]

She says "thee."

 

[A.V.I.A.F.]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it always bugs me that T'Pau uses the wrong pronoun form. "Thee" is an objective form; it should not be used as the subject or with a "being verb" like "is" or "are."

Saying "Are thee Vulcan or are thee human?" is as wrong as saying "Him is a Vulcan."

It should be "Art thou Vulcan or art thou human?" if she's addressing one person; "Are ye Vulcans or are ye humans?" if she's addressing two or more.

Unless the goal was to make the lines sound otherworldly by using the wrong form.

More likely, the writers didn't know the difference and so just threw "thee" around to add prestige and gravitas to the ceremony.

 

[Ronald Held]

Maybe we can just say it is poor UT translation?

 

[Tiberius]

Yes we can, but where's the fun in that?

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

^ ^ ^ ^ ^
The difference in that second word between "they" and "thee" completely flips our impression of the audience for that line. Does anyone have an actual script for this ep?

As a matter of fact, I do.

2nd Revised Final Draft, June 5, 1967. Page 37, Shot 84:

T'PAU​

What thee are about to see comes down from the time of the beginning, without change. This is the Vulcan heart. This is the Vulcan soul. To thine eyes this may seem as dark as our night without moon. This is our way.

More likely, the writers didn't know the difference and so just threw "thee" around to add prestige and gravitas to the ceremony.

Not in the least likely - the writer (singular), Theodore Sturgeon, knew the difference exactly.

 

[A.V.I.A.F.]

More likely, the writers didn't know the difference and so just threw "thee" around to add prestige and gravitas to the ceremony.

Not in the least likely - the writer (singular), Theodore Sturgeon, knew the difference exactly.

Uhmmm, then obviously he didn't since he has T'Pau using bad grammar. See the messages above.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Uhmmm, then obviously he didn't...

Uhmmm...no, this is not obvious at all, however much your assumptions please you.

 

[A.V.I.A.F.]

Uhmmm, then obviously he didn't...

Uhmmm...no, this is not obvious at all, however much your assumptions please you.

"Are thee Vulcan, or are thee human?" is what is spoken in the episode. That is incorrect English...no assumption there. According to you Sturgeon wrote this without any other input or rewrites from anyone (your remark about "the writer (singular)" which was very cute by the way). So then either Sturgeon wrote it incorrectly, or Lovsky read the lines incorrectly. You claim to have the script, see for yourself. If Sturgeon wrote "Are thee Vulcan, or are thee human," then he simply got it wrong, accept it and move on. Please drop the cute comments already and take the time to read what has been posted before you start doling out the attitude.

 

[Sindatur]

Uhmmm, then obviously he didn't...

Uhmmm...no, this is not obvious at all, however much your assumptions please you.

"Are thee Vulcan, or are thee human?" is what is spoken in the episode. That is incorrect English...no assumption there. According to you Sturgeon wrote this without any other input or rewrites from anyone (your remark about "the writer (singular)" which was very cute by the way). So then either Sturgeon wrote it incorrectly, or Lovsky read the lines incorrectly. You claim to have the script, see for yourself. If Sturgeon wrote "Are thee Vulcan, or are thee human," then he simply got it wrong, accept it and move on. Please drop the cute comments already and take the time to read what has been posted before you start doling out the attitude.

Eh...as I said before, T'Pau is so racist, I can't imagine her being concerned about being that fluent in the Human Language. Why would someone so racist spend that much time learning such command over the language to catch something that obscure or intricate?