Star Trek is Already Steampunk

[Patrickivan]

Or the end of the computer as we know it.

Instead of becoming more intrusive, technology will be less intrusive.

The result is still posthumanism. The result is still the end of the human as we know it. Be it orga, mecha, or hybrid, the twilight of the species is upon us.

Yarn,

Just out of curiousity, are you presently engaged in post secondary studies of some sort, I.e. attending college or university?

 

[Christopher]

I'm wondering what YARN has against humans that he's so eager to see us rendered extinct.

 

[YARN]

I'm wondering what YARN has against humans that he's so eager to see us rendered extinct.

I love humans. I think every machine should control one.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Hear, hear! And by that I mean the word you meant to use was "hear", not "here". I don't agree with your example.

In fact, invoking Voyager probes as exemplars is asinine, as they were never intended to "seek out new life" or any of that rot, but designed primarily to study the outer reaches of our solar system. The plaque and record were add-ons in the impossibly-unlikely event that some spacefaring civilization might someday spot it, and more symbolic than anything. A "message-in-a-bottle" thing, if you will.

Ho Ho! You got me there. And by that I mean BFD.

Add on or not, Voyager is our first emissary beyond the solar system.

And the analysis surrounding the example still stands.

In a word: Baloney.

You're an eloquent man. So much for the wall-o'-text approach of some posters.

 

[YARN]

Ho Ho! You got me there. And by that I mean BFD.

Add on or not, Voyager is our first emissary beyond the solar system.

And the analysis surrounding the example still stands.

In a word: Baloney.

You're an eloquent man. So much for the wall-o'-text approach of some posters.

Modeled any good starships lately?

 

[The Green Mushroom]

A. The Enterprise is loaded with people, loads of people, doing jobs that should be automated.--Except it is automated.

1. The TOS Enterprise has "phaser crews." --Military redundancy.

3. The Enterprise has a helmsman. The Enterprise has a navigator. --I'd still prefer a human monitoring the situation. And how often does the helmsman fly as opposed to pushing a bunch of buttons and watching the display.

5. The Enterprise has people on it when should be a diplomatic space probe.--Already been said, but a what? If you want to meet people, go out and meet people. If FTL wasn't possible then probes would make sense. But since everyone and his mother seems to stumble on warp drive, why not go out there. The few probes we've seen in the various shows all seem to have been sent by races that are dead, paranoid, malevolent or some combination.

a. Robots could do everything to maintain the ship that the computer could not directly do for itself. Think of all the red shirts who needlessly died! --How can the computer serve as security guards to be killed by the villain of the week?

b. If people want to do it "because it it there," then it would make more sense for the crew to engage in recreation, socialization, and intellectual development, rather than doing all the menial jobs on the ship which basically suck. --Or they could train for when they are needed in emergencies.

i. Just ask the [various junior officers]--All of whom were either doing jobs that they actually liked or where trying to prove themselves to earn promotions to the jobs they wanted.It seems that Starfleet doesn't care about people who just want be along for the ride and gives them a reason to stay onboard, especially if they like the job.

B. The Enterprise has Retro Computers

2. TNG Era - people lug around tablet PC and have computer stations everywhere when the computer of the ship should be distributed everywhere.--I though the computer was everywhere but that it helped to have visual interfaces, a picture's worth a thousand words after all.

C. Retro Communication - The communications tech of trek (apart from the distances covered) is comparable to the technology of today (and today's technology becomes antiquated at an exponential rate).

1. Crew members carry cell phones, have blue tooth, and have wearable communication devices--Can our cell phones talk to a ship in space? Mine doesn't work at my brother's house in the woods. I find the cell phone sized interplanetary communicators from TOS to still be impressive.

2. The future points to implanted devices--Here's the thing, even if that happens, would we allow it? Barring a need for something like a Cochlear implant or something similar, how many people would let a computer be implanted in their brain? Or allow the same to be done to their children? I'll take computer interfaces please.
F. The Enterprise has a holodeck. A big ole room that sucks energy to convert energy into something matter-like. The future, however, is not external, but internal. That is, people should simply communing directly with the computer and experiencing all the wonderful opportunities a disembodied consciousness (unencumbered by a body) could do.--The Computer can stay out of my head, thank you very much.

G. Star Trek is humanistic, where the future points to post-humanism...There is no need to travel to a planet when you can send a copy of your consciousness mind there.--Why do I care what a copy of my mind does? At best that would be another person who gets to go on adventures and tell me about them. What happens to the copy after it gets home? Do we kill it? (That sounds like murdering my twin) Do we download it into my head? (Total Recall plus murdering my twin)

 

[YARN]

A. The Enterprise is loaded with people, loads of people, doing jobs that should be automated.--Except it is automated.

In This Side of Paradise Kirk is stranded in orbit while everyone is having their love-in, because he cannot run the ship himself. You need a crew to run a TOS Starship.

People are necessary in later Trek to fix systems when they break down. The transporter is always breaking. The engines are always out of whack. The plasma conduits are always flurgibbiting when they should be flurgabitting.

TNG era starships, however, have enough processing power to create sentient life. The ship, given the ability to monitor and repair its own systems would be better off. The ship is smarter than the monkeys "running" it. Give it robots, or holo-agents (a la the holo-doc on Voyager who was free to mover wherever he wished) to do the manual repairs, and why do you need people?

1. The TOS Enterprise has "phaser crews." --Military redundancy.

Bad redundancy. There are so many other and better ways to build redundancy into the system which do not involve a crew of people to have a special "button pushing" job. This is like pulling a horse trailer behind your car as redundancy (in case of motor failure: ride horse).

The Captain calls out an order. This order has to be verbalized. That order is transmitted from the bridge to a special room on the ship. In this room another person has to hear the order, understand it, and then physically push a button. Not the best way to engage in combat for ships that travel faster than light.

And note - at the end of the line on Star Trek, the muggle in the Red Shirt is still pushing a button somewhere in the bowels of this ship. The circuitry and systems still have to be working on the ship for the Red Shirt to do his job (pushing a button in a phaser room).

It's not like you can get out and row if the engines break, or put up a sail and hope for wind. Your life always depends on the machines working on Trek. And so long as they're working, let them work as best they can (get the people out of the way).

If you want to meet people, go out and meet people. If FTL wasn't possible then probes would make sense.

Send probes as your emissaries first. If it is safe you send people in next. First observation and first contact should be done by a probe.

How can the computer serve as security guards to be killed by the villain of the week?

Which is why Trek is backward looking. It puts people in old-fashioned situations to be killed. I am not saying that Steampunk or Atompunk (give it a name) doesn't make for good drama, but the sort of drama it is purposeful looks backward to create easy tension.

--Or they could train for when they are needed in emergencies.

But they don't. They're all scrambling for career advancement and getting yelled at by superior officers. They die anonymously. They're fodder for the hunches of their superiors. When equipment fails they pay the price.

All of whom were either doing jobs that they actually liked or where trying to prove themselves to earn promotions to the jobs they wanted.

No one wants to be the Red Shirt. Everyone wants to be the Captain. When Picard lived an alternate reality as a muggle, he was miserable. And most people on the Enterprise are muggles.

Not only are their jobs unnecessary (which means that they're just playing out a hierarchical social drama), their jobs are also dangerous, and most people are stuck with grunt work. For every Riker there are three hundred Barclays. For every Kirk there are three hundred Finney's.

I though the computer was everywhere but that it helped to have visual interfaces, a picture's worth a thousand words after all.

The interface should be in their brains. They should be directly interacting with the computer.

Here's the thing, even if that happens, would we allow it?

LOL, how many times a day do people check their facebook status on their smartphones?

People want their smartphones (the new laptop) to be portable, powerful, ergonomic, and convenient. This means small devices which are, basically, an extension of their will. The terminus of all the technological yearning for connecting our will with information processing and control is to connect our technology, as closely as possible, with our will. And this means implants.

Barring a need for something like a Cochlear implant or something similar, how many people would let a computer be implanted in their brain? Or allow the same to be done to their children? I'll take computer interfaces please.

And I passed on tattoos, piercings, and body mods - the kids, however, love these things.I passed on cell phones for a long time, but they're convenient and powerful.

My grandmother passed on microwave ovens and laundry dryers until late in life -- and then she loved them. She couldn't stop raving about how marvelous it was to warm coffee so quickly and how nice clothes turned out.

My job basically requires me to have a computer and a cell phone and to accept job payment in the form of electronic direct deposit. If you want a discount at a store, you basically have to agree to use a loyalty card (given our economy, this can be coercive). My point? Implants won't be optional in the future. You'll either have to be Amish or adapt.

The Computer can stay out of my head, thank you very much.

Your head is a computer.

Why do I care what a copy of my mind does?

Anyone about to step into a transporter should ask, what do I care what a copy of my body does on the other side?

Would you use the transporter?

 

[scotpens]

The TOS Enterprise has "phaser crews."

--Military redundancy.

Bad redundancy. There are so many other and better ways to build redundancy into the system which do not involve a crew of people to have a special "button pushing" job. This is like pulling a horse trailer behind your car as redundancy (in case of motor failure: ride horse).

The TOS “phaser crew” was seen in only one episode: “Balance of Terror.” It was written that way for story purposes. Later episodes had the operation of firing phasers reduced to Sulu pushing a button on his console.

The future points to implanted devices.

Here's the thing, even if that happens, would we allow it? Barring a need for something like a Cochlear implant or something similar, how many people would let a computer be implanted in their brain? Or allow the same to be done to their children? I'll take computer interfaces please.

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUa3np4CKC4[/yt]

 

[YARN]

Reindeer,

I have no doubt that this future is already on its way.

 

[Christopher]

The TOS “phaser crew” was seen in only one episode: “Balance of Terror.” It was written that way for story purposes.

And because it was 1966. You'd find plenty of similar stuff in even the most imaginative prose science fiction of the period -- manually operated spaceships, computers still using magnetic tape reels and taking up whole rooms, society still being sexist, etc.

Frankly it's a cheap shot to criticize the SF of past decades for not being able to predict the stuff we know now. All SF is a product of its time, and no SF is ever going to be an exact prediction of the future. Nor is it meant to be. It's meant to be imaginative literature that makes people think about possibilities, or that uses conjectural science and technology to make allegorical comments about the culture and time in which it's written. Part of reading fiction is the willing suspension of disbelief, and part of reading SF from past generations is suspending disbelief about the predictions we now know to have been erroneous.

True, it is a little trickier for something like Star Trek where the same assumptions on which a 1960s SF universe was built are still being applied in new productions. But that's a hazard of long-running serial fiction. How much longer will it be feasible to write about Clark Kent or Peter Parker working for a newspaper? What happens to any superhero's secret identity once we have ubiquitous security cameras armed with facial recognition software that can't be fooled by glasses or a mask? Still, fiction adapts as best it can. (And not just genre fiction. How many stock storytelling tropes of the past depended on characters not being able to get to a telephone? These days we substitute the characters either being somewhere with no cell reception or losing or forgetting their phones.)

 

[YARN]

The TOS “phaser crew” was seen in only one episode: “Balance of Terror.” It was written that way for story purposes.

And because it was 1966.

We saw torpedo room crews in 1982.

Frankly it's a cheap shot to criticize the SF of past decades for not being able to predict the stuff we know now.

It's not a shot of any variety. It's an observation/description. I love TOS most of all.

True, it is a little trickier for something like Star Trek where the same assumptions on which a 1960s SF universe was built are still being applied in new productions.

This certainly mitigates the cheapness of the alleged shot.

Even the assumptions of 80s TNG are showing their age.

 

[scotpens]

The TOS “phaser crew” was seen in only one episode: “Balance of Terror.” It was written that way for story purposes.

And because it was 1966.

We saw torpedo room crews in 1982.

Blame director Nicholas Meyer, who wanted Trek to have as many traditional nautical touches as he could squeeze in. Hence the uniform jackets resembling naval pea coats, and crewmen pulling up gratings to “clear the decks” in preparation for firing torpedoes. Frankly, I thought it looked a bit silly myself.

 

[Christopher]

Blame director Nicholas Meyer, who wanted Trek to have as many traditional nautical touches as he could squeeze in. Hence the uniform jackets resembling naval pea coats, and crewmen pulling up gratings to “clear the decks” in preparation for firing torpedoes. Frankly, I thought it looked a bit silly myself.

So did I, but it was his stylistic choice to convey the feel he wanted. Again, it's a mistake to think that science fiction only "works" if it accurately predicts the future. Often it isn't trying to. Fiction is about creating unreal worlds, and while sometimes the goal is to make those worlds plausible, at other times it's more about style or conveying a particular feel to the audience.

That's the one respect in which YARN's "steampunk" comparison is not entirely invalid. Or rather, he's completely misdefining the term, but he's kind of in the ballpark, because steampunk is an example of a literary genre which is not about realistic futurism but is instead about creating an interesting and stylish alternative world. We know that technology like that didn't exist in the Victorian era, but stories about alternate histories where it did exist are still entertaining. And by the same token, we may know that the somewhat retro futurism of Star Trek isn't a plausible prediction of future technological development, but that doesn't mean it can't be enjoyable to explore it as a fictional world.

Meyer's approach to Star Trek did arguably have a touch of steampunk to it, since he chose to introduce a deliberately retro feel to his Trek movies, blending the trappings of space opera with those of naval-warfare movies set in the age of sail. It's the same kind of era/genre-blending that you see in steampunk, even though it isn't actually steampunk per se. More "sailpunk," if we want to be precious about it.

 

[blssdwlf]

The TOS “phaser crew” was seen in only one episode: “Balance of Terror.” It was written that way for story purposes. Later episodes had the operation of firing phasers reduced to Sulu pushing a button on his console.

Phaser crews were called out in more than one episode. There was "Balance of Terror", "A Taste of Armageddon", "Errand of Mercy", "The Corbomite Maneuver", "Spectre of the Gun", and "Elaan of Troyius". I wouldn't be surprised if the TMP Enterprise had a phaser crew as well.

In This Side of Paradise, Kirk is stranded in orbit while everyone is having their love-in, because he cannot run the ship himself. You need a crew to run a TOS Starship.

Or Kirk was saying he couldn't pilot the ship by himself. Scotty, or Spock might not have the same problem Kirk would have. As we've seen in "Menagerie" and "The Ultimate Computer", the ship can operate on it's own.

 

[YARN]

Or Kirk was saying he couldn't pilot the ship by himself. Scotty, or Spock might not have the same problem Kirk would have. As we've seen in "Menagerie" and "The Ultimate Computer", the ship can operate on it's own.

That does not make sense. Kirk knew just as much about the relevant systems as his senior officers.

Sometimes the Enterprise can run itself. Sometimes it cannot. People are necessary to run the ship, but they aren't necessary.

Either the ship should be able run itself but cannot, or it can run itself, but does not. But why have people doing superfluous jobs in the latter situation?

 

[The Green Mushroom]

Would you use the transporter?

Actually, no I would not. Ever since I first understood what it claimed to be doing I couldn't see how disassembling my body was any different than killing me. I still don't. If someone built a transporter that worked the way it seems to in Trek, it would essentially be a fax machine that has a paper shredder at the end. No thanks.

In regards to the other comments:

1) Our Picard didn't like being a muggle. Who knows what the alternate version of him thought about staying in Starfleet for decades without promotion.

2) And then there are all the other characters who didn't mind being muggles: LaForge and Scott seemed to really like being chief engineers and fixing things. I could say the same about Barclay and O'Brien. Worf seemed lost when he couldn't hang out on the Enterprise anymore. Uhura spent thirty years as the phone operator. Starfleet likes having officers who are good at what they do and don't feel compelled to compete for promotions they don't want--just look at Riker never getting promoted. Logical or not, Starfleet has no problem with a man deciding that he's going to stay right where he is.

3)I don't have tatoos and piercings, not that there is anything wrong with that. My wife does and its never bothered me. I think a computer in my brain (which is not a computer in the sense that I am talking about and probably most people as well) is a whole different ball game. And if this frankly depressing transhuman future of yours comes about, it can leave me behind. I don't think I'll be alone.

4) And while Kirk may not have been able to do much in that episode you referred to, the ship got a lot better after the refit and other ships after that time as well. If seven people can operate an already damaged Enterprise in the Search for Spock, I think that counts as automated.

 

[YARN]

Would you use the transporter?

Actually, no I would not.

Neither would I - but the characters on the show do. They think nothing of it. Given that they think nothing of it, it makes no sense that they would share our reservations about continuity of personality. Being blown up and reassembled every time you leave the ship (or return to it) is no big deal to them. So long as their personality functionally exists in a similar body, they don't care. They have no reason to reject ideas I have proposed. That they don't care about transporting, but would refuse implants etc., for a scruple about "wholeness" is a rather steampunkish idea.

In regards to the other comments:

1) Our Picard didn't like being a muggle. Who knows what the alternate version of him thought about staying in Starfleet for decades without promotion.

No, the character (muggle Picard) as Picard finds him is informed by his superiors that he had already applied for promotion many times already and talked this sort of talk before.

LaForge and Scott seemed to really like being chief engineers and fixing things.

Sure, they were CHIEF engineers. There's one of those per ship. They're on the totem pole with important jobs.

Logical or not, Starfleet has no problem with a man deciding that he's going to stay right where he is.

No, they were getting impatient with Riker. Picard felt he was screwing up his career. Shelby though of him as a failure. The admiralty obviously felt he was a bit of a loser for failing to grasp the brass ring. This is a world where you are supposed to strive for advancement.

And if this frankly depressing transhuman future of yours comes about, it can leave me behind. I don't think I'll be alone.

But you will be displaced and ultimately replaced by those who adapt.

) And while Kirk may not have been able to do much in that episode you referred to, the ship got a lot better after the refit and other ships after that time as well. If seven people can operate an already damaged Enterprise in the Search for Spock, I think that counts as automated.

Which simply raises the question of why 200-400 people were needed to crew the Enterprise when it was obviously able to run with a crew of 7.

 

[blssdwlf]

Or Kirk was saying he couldn't pilot the ship by himself. Scotty, or Spock might not have the same problem Kirk would have. As we've seen in "Menagerie" and "The Ultimate Computer", the ship can operate on it's own.

That does not make sense. Kirk knew just as much about the relevant systems as his senior officers.

And how do you know Kirk can operate the ship the same way Scotty and Spock can? We've seen Kirk aware of theoretical operation of the ship in "The Naked Time" but he needed both Scotty and Spock to implement the procedures.

Sometimes the Enterprise can run itself. Sometimes it cannot. People are necessary to run the ship, but they aren't necessary.

Either the ship should be able run itself but cannot, or it can run itself, but does not.

Or more correctly, the person (or AI) who knows what they are doing can take over operations of the Enterprise so it would be the latter - it can run itself with proper preparation, but does not.

But why have people doing superfluous jobs in the latter situation?

Doesn't "The Ultimate Computer" answer this question? Most of the jobs on the TOS Enterprise were pointed out to be superfluous by M5. The ship is crewed because that is what the peoplewant to do and that they do not trust fully-automated systems (for whatever reasons that we are not aware of).

One missing component for a fully-automated ship, IMHO, are repair drones to fix battle damage.

 

[Christopher]

Would you use the transporter?

Actually, no I would not. Ever since I first understood what it claimed to be doing I couldn't see how disassembling my body was any different than killing me. I still don't. If someone built a transporter that worked the way it seems to in Trek, it would essentially be a fax machine that has a paper shredder at the end. No thanks.

Well, it depends. The key question is whether there's continuity of consciousness: whether the person rematerialized at the other end is the same continuous entity as the one who stepped into it in the first place, or if the original was killed and an exact, indistinguishable copy was created. This comes up in discussions of quantum teleportation (at least in the abstract, since there's no realistic chance that QT could allow teleportation of humans or other macroscopic objects in the foreseeable future), and quantum-mechanically speaking, there's zero difference between the original subject and the quantum duplicate at the other end. Essentially what defines an object in quantum-physical terms is its quantum state, and it's the state that gets teleported, so even though it's imposed onto a different set of particles, they effectively become the same, original particles. But that still leaves the question of whether there's continuity of consciousness -- does your awareness of yourself as a conscious entity continue after you step out at the other end, or does it cease while a newly created duplicate begins its existence with all your memories?

I recently had an insight that leads me to conclude that the former would be the case, that despite having your body physically destroyed and duplicated, you effectively would have a continuous existence and awareness after being quantum-teleported. I discuss my reasoning in this post on my blog:

http://christopherlbennett.wordpress.com/2011/12/01/on-quantum-teleportation-and-continuity-of-self/

In short, the idea is that what gives us the sense of a continuous existence in the first place is that our various particles are quantum-entangled and correlated with each other's states. And when you're quantum-teleported, your original body is quantum-entangled with your duplicate body that comes out at the other end. So your original and duplicate selves are just as much a single continuous entity as your original self was in the first place, despite the separation in space and time.

I tend to assume these days that Trek-style beaming uses a similar principle to quantum teleportation except that your original particles are sent along for the ride and used in place of the preexisting matter supply at the other end, which frees it up from needing a receiver station. Basically your identity is preserved in the quantum information called your pattern, which is encoded in the transporter beam -- and we've seen evidence in "Realm of Fear" that this disembodied pattern even retains active consciousness. It's just temporarily separated from its particles and then re-imposed on them at the far end.

2) And then there are all the other characters who didn't mind being muggles: LaForge and Scott seemed to really like being chief engineers and fixing things. I could say the same about Barclay and O'Brien. Worf seemed lost when he couldn't hang out on the Enterprise anymore.

Why would you say that? Worf didn't really come into his own until he left the Enterprise and became Deep Space 9's strategic operations officer. Once there, he really began to grow as an officer and a person -- he rose to a command position, he fell in love and got married, and he just generally became a more well-rounded individual. Leaving the Enterprise was the best thing that ever happened to him.

And if this frankly depressing transhuman future of yours comes about, it can leave me behind. I don't think I'll be alone.

Yes, this is the point I was making earlier. Proponents of posthumanism often make the fundamental mistake of assuming that everyone in the world would share their preferences. But human society has never been monolithic. Even today there are still cultures on Earth that live as hunter-gatherers or nomadic horticulturalists as their ancestors did thousands of years ago. Even if many humans embrace trans- or posthumanism, there will still be others who choose to remain as they are.

4) And while Kirk may not have been able to do much in that episode you referred to, the ship got a lot better after the refit and other ships after that time as well. If seven people can operate an already damaged Enterprise in the Search for Spock, I think that counts as automated.

The reason TNG didn't have a regular chief engineer character at first is because the initial concept was that the technology would be so advanced by that point that the ship would essentially run and repair itself. That's also why the bridge was designed to look more like a conference lounge than a control center. But once again, drama overrode futurism; it was decided that it was more interesting from a story perspective to have a character in charge of solving technical problems rather than having the ship mend itself behind the scenes, and that having a bunch of people at consoles with lots of blinky lights and buttons was more visually interesting than having a few people sitting around in a command lounge with largely invisible technology.

 

[The Green Mushroom]

Why would you say that? Worf didn't really come into his own until he left the Enterprise and became Deep Space 9's strategic operations officer. Once there, he really began to grow as an officer and a person -- he rose to a command position, he fell in love and got married, and he just generally became a more well-rounded individual. Leaving the Enterprise was the best thing that ever happened to him.

Because he was lost between the destruction of the Enterprise and Sisko bringing him to Deep Space Nine. He felt that Starfleet had nothing left to give him until he was essentially ordered into a position that he did end up thriving in.


I do admit that I could be wrong but I've heard that scientists haven't even proven that they are sending information with quantum entanglement merely linking particles into opposite states that remain there until measured.

But even if they do manage to use it for quantum teleportation in all its glory, its still not for me. To each his own in this matter of course, but there is nothing that will convince me to redefine my body ceasing to exist here as being anything other than death even if a totally identical me shows up some place else.