Star Wars: The Clone Wars S4

[Set Harth]

According to Google Books

Spoiler: Maul

Maul comes back with robo-legs.

Lucas should be terminated with extreme prejudice.

 

[timothy]

yep they did that in the comics star wars visionaries which is set in and around ROTS.

 

[Set Harth]

Yes, but that was non-canon, and understood as such.

This is different. It's ( apparently ) official.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

Yes, but that was non-canon, and understood as such.

This is different. It's ( apparently ) official.

Canon/non-canon - not much of a difference; it's still all fiction, Set Harth.

 

[Set Harth]

There's a big difference.

Non-canon material didn't happen in-universe; canon material did.

See: Infinities.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Yes, but that was non-canon, and understood as such.

This is different. It's ( apparently ) official.

Canon/non-canon - not much of a difference; it's still all fiction, Set Harth.

It's all good fiction or bad fiction. The bad should be overwritten with the good. That's the only sensible thing to root for. I'm just happy and rather amazed to see that happening. It's a very rare thing.

 

[Set Harth]

There was nothing bad about the ( apparently expired ) possibility of Maul staying dead. This is the bad overwriting the good, like messing with ROTJ.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Hmm, I see I have some catchup to do here...

As for Maul, I just meant that generally. I don't give a flip about Maul. He's a dull character (tho I'm willing to give TCW a chance to make him interesting).

This series is still intended to fit into the continuity of the films. You're taking your own need to see it as a separate continuity and dragging the writers into it. But there's no proof that their intentions are to rewrite or contradict ROTS.

It doesn't matter what the writers "intend" (and I wouldn't trust any press releases or interviews from LucasFilm, which of course have to keep up the fiction that Lucas didn't totally botch the PT), it matters what they are actually doing. They have created a story that right now is impossible to fit into the continuity of the PT, unless we're being generous and assuming that The Clone Wars is telling the story that Lucas always intended, and simply lacked the skill to pull off. I'm happy to reconcile the two that way and regard The Clone Wars as a repair job.

The Mortis arc established that Anakin is special among Force users

We already knew that. It's usually drowned out by all the TPM-related noise.

They said it in TPM, but just saying something is quite different from convincing the audience that it is real. TCW is actually doing the work of trying to convince us of the reality of Anakin's special-ness, in a way that has more gut-level believability than that pathetic midichlorians nonsense. That's what I mean by "establish" - a writer doing the work of making a plot element real for the audience. A lot of the PT's problems can be traced to lazy writing, not actually doing the work of a storyteller, which is a lot more than just saying "X is true."

which had surprisingly little to say about the metaphysics

Destroy Sith, balance Force. That about covers it.

The Mortis Arc already called that into question, so obviously TCW has more to say about the metaphysics. Which is good, because destroying one side to bring anything into "balance" is inherently absurd.

in that he could (in theory) be beyond both the dark and light sides, and able to control both.

I don't think the words "beyond" or "outside" were even used. The idea of using both sides of the Force is really nothing new. Revan does it, and according to the portrayal of certain sources it's not such an unheard-of idea.

Who's "Revan"? He was never in the PT. The notion of any mortal being able to control both sides of the Force is not in the movies or the TV series, yet if that's what Anakin believes he might be able to do, the repercussions for the whole story are immense.

If you're talking about material being introduced from the books, then fine. I don't care where they get their material for the repair job. They could get it off the back of a candy wrapper for all I care. All that matters is that they are replacing bad storytelling with good.

Basically our differences on this matter can be summarized this way: you're a lot easier to please than I am. However, when writers are willing and able to do the work to please me, I'm more than willing to say so. It provides karmic balance to all the bitching I do elsewhere.

 

[Set Harth]

It doesn't matter what the writers "intend"

In case I forgot this was a Trek site...

(and I wouldn't trust any press releases or interviews from LucasFilm, which of course have to keep up the fiction that Lucas didn't totally botch the PT)

How convenient. In other words, you admit that there is no proof for your "alternate continuity" stance. Not surprising given that you made it up.

They have created a story that right now is impossible to fit into the continuity of the PT

Hardly. Your standards for "impossibility" seem to be wide enough to include anything you don't want to happen. That's not actually what the word means.

TCW is actually doing the work of trying to convince us of the reality of Anakin's special-ness

By having him display a command of the Force which is, generally speaking, about equal to that of an average Jedi Master?

in a way that has more gut-level believability than that pathetic midichlorians nonsense.

TCW is in the same continuity as the films. Anakin's "specialness", whatever it looks like in practice, is still the result of midichlorians, also known as "that pathetic midichlorians nonsense", also known as "that pathetic biologically inherited Force sensitivity in the Skywalker bloodline which no one ever complained about".

The Mortis Arc already called that into question

No, it didn't. It was expected to by some people, but reality didn't conform to those expectations, and some choose not to admit it. But the actual Mortis arc featured Anakin destroying the equivalent of a Sith, and also showed us a vision of the OT which further reinforced the inescapable ( due to ROTJ ) fact that his ultimate destiny remains the same as it was before. ROTJ is still canon.

Which is good, because destroying one side to bring anything into "balance" is inherently absurd.

Only if you insist on making the mistake of replacing a side of the Force with a group of people. The prequels never said anything about destroying the dark side, just the Sith.

The notion of any mortal being able to control both sides of the Force is not in the movies or the TV series

By the same token, the notion of someone not being able to "control" both sides of the Force is not in the movies. During the script writing phrase of TESB, using both sides of the Force was described as necessary when a Jedi fights. It has never been established that using one side of the Force creates a prohibition against using the other.

you're a lot easier to please than I am.

You might not be reading carefully enough.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

It doesn't matter what the writers "intend"

Yes, it does or else you end up with people who are fans of a character or group of characters who is horrible person/persons and pretty much an evil bastard/bastards and see THEM as the good guy for some reason beyond all possible comprehension.

Aka this

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MisaimedFandom

 

[Temis the Vorta]

If people want to be fans of fictional characters, for whatever reason they choose, that's their business. The fangirls who thought Dukat was a sweet, misunderstood guy. The fangirls who drool over Damon Salvatore, despite his history as a serial killer. That stuff is kind of cute, and hurts no one since Dukat and Damon don't actually exist.

Where it goes wrong is when writers get bent out of shape because fans are not responding "as they should." There was nothing wrong with the Dukat droolers, until the DS9 writers decided to go off a cliff about it and ruin a good character. And who gets blamed for that? The writers of course. They should have been more sensible than to cut off their nose to spite their faces.

At least The Vampire Diaries writers are savvy enough to realize that Damon droolers mean high ratings for their show and money in their pockets. They do everything in their power to cater to the droolers.

(And that link is pretty confusing, what with the Che Guevara ad. Wait, he's not a fictional character!)

But you missed my point. It doesn't matter what an author intends. What matters is whether they achieve their intent, within the work they create. If they want to convey X idea and simply fail to do that, then X idea has not been conveyed simply by their wish to do so.

I could wish to climb Mt Everest, but wishing doesn't make it so.

 

[JD]

The Mortis Arc already called that into question, so obviously TCW has more to say about the metaphysics. Which is good, because destroying one side to bring anything into "balance" is inherently absurd.

]
Only if you insist on making the mistake of replacing a side of the Force with a group of people. The prequels never said anything about destroying the dark side, just the Sith.

I'd always assumed that the existence of the Sith, or at least their being active, brought about an unbalancing of the Force, and by killing the Emperor and returning to the Light side Anakin rebalanced the Force. Perhaps it doesn't mean balance between Light and Dark, but more of just a peace over the whole thing which is disrupted when people use it for evil. Basically it's more of a philosophical balance, rather than a mathematical balance.

 

[Set Harth]

I'd always assumed that the existence of the Sith, or at least their being active, brought about an unbalancing of the Force, and by killing the Emperor and returning to the Light side Anakin rebalanced the Force.

So far, so good.

Perhaps it doesn't mean balance between Light and Dark, but more of just a peace over the whole thing which is disrupted when people use it for evil. Basically it's more of a philosophical balance, rather than a mathematical balance.

It does mean balance between light and dark. Among the sources which explicitly spell this out are Cloak of Deception, TCW's Altar of Mortis, and The Old Republic: Revan. The problem is when balance between light and dark is replaced by balance between Jedi and Sith. A parity in numbers between Jedi and Sith is not the balance discussed in the films. It is an invalid substitution. The films discussed a balance of the Force, not a balance in the membership of two organizations. A balance of one type is not automatically the same as a balance of anything else. When you take words out of a phrase and replace them with different words, you tend to change the meaning of the phrase. As depicted in the PT, the restoration of balance to the Force is something that the Jedi hope for as a possible positive outcome in the future. To assume that the Jedi look forward to an outcome of "one Sith for every Jedi" is patently absurd.

 

[JD]

I think I was trying to say the same thing, I just didn't say it quite that well.

 

[Santeria]

I'd always assumed that the existence of the Sith, or at least their being active, brought about an unbalancing of the Force, and by killing the Emperor and returning to the Light side Anakin rebalanced the Force.

So far, so good.

Perhaps it doesn't mean balance between Light and Dark, but more of just a peace over the whole thing which is disrupted when people use it for evil. Basically it's more of a philosophical balance, rather than a mathematical balance.

It does mean balance between light and dark. Among the sources which explicitly spell this out are Cloak of Deception, TCW's Altar of Mortis, and The Old Republic: Revan. The problem is when balance between light and dark is replaced by balance between Jedi and Sith. A parity in numbers between Jedi and Sith is not the balance discussed in the films. It is an invalid substitution. The films discussed a balance of the Force, not a balance in the membership of two organizations. A balance of one type is not automatically the same as a balance of anything else. When you take words out of a phrase and replace them with different words, you tend to change the meaning of the phrase. As depicted in the PT, the restoration of balance to the Force is something that the Jedi hope for as a possible positive outcome in the future. To assume that the Jedi look forward to an outcome of "one Sith for every Jedi" is patently absurd.

It's pretty simple then: Explain what the balance actually is, and why massive numbers of Jedi and only two Sith (if even that) keeps it "balanced."

 

[O'Dib]

The balance would probably only be found in the eradication of both orders, which is effectively what happened at the end of ROTJ (despite its name), as Luke is no true Jedi. Luke and Leia would likely be considered grey Jedi by some standards, what with both breaking the no-personal-attachments part of the code. So I'm thinking it's really about internal balance.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

The balance would probably only be found in the eradication of both orders, which is effectively what happened at the end of ROTJ (despite its name), as Luke is no true Jedi. Luke and Leia would likely be considered grey Jedi by some standards, what with both breaking the no-personal-attachments part of the code. So I'm thinking it's really about internal balance.

Eh - I'll go with what Jedi Master Yoda said: Luke's a Jedi at the end.

 

[O'Dib]

At the end Luke a Jedi is?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Yes!

 

[Set Harth]

Explain what the balance actually is, and why massive numbers of Jedi and only two Sith (if even that) keeps it "balanced."

The balance of the Force is a balance between the sides of the Force. When you use the phrase "balance of the [BLANK]", what appears in the [BLANK] is important. You can't just throw out the word "Force" and replace it with something else as though you're still talking about the same thing. The problem is that when the PT used the phrase "balance of the Force", some people heard "Jedi/Sith head count". But the films never said any such thing. It is an absurd and illogical assumption in the first place, because it implies the Jedi want to see their numbers reduced to two. Clearly they do not. And no, the Force was not balanced in the PT when there were two Sith. The Force is only balanced when the Sith are destroyed. As JD posted above: I'd always assumed that the existence of the Sith, or at least their being active, brought about an unbalancing of the Force, and by killing the Emperor and returning to the Light side Anakin rebalanced the Force.

The balance would probably only be found in the eradication of both orders, which is effectively what happened at the end of ROTJ (despite its name), as Luke is no true Jedi.

The balance of the Force is not the balance of the orders. It is not parity in numbers of Jedi and Sith. One phrase involving the word balance does not automatically mean the same thing as any other conceivable phrase involving the word balance just because the phrases may have a word in common. The attempted redefinition of the balance of the Force to mean "Jedi/Sith head count" is a fan invention which is inconsistent with both the PT and ROTJ. By the conclusion of ROTJ there is at least one Jedi and zero Sith, yet we know the Force is balanced. During the PT there are thousands of Jedi and only two Sith, yet the Force is unbalanced toward the dark.

So I'm thinking it's really about internal balance.

The Force is external to any specific person. Thus, whatever "internal balance" means, a person achieving "internal balance" does not balance the Force, because that person is not the Force. The balance of the Force is not the balance of the individual. This is just another example of taking the word "Force" out of the phrase "balance of the Force" and replacing it with something else. Any time you do that it's an invalid substitution and you've invented a new type of "balance" which is not the one mentioned in the films and thus irrelevant.