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At the Prophet's Door - new DRGIII TNG novel?

A lot of big stuff happened on DS9 that we didn't hear mention of on TNG or in the movies.

Sure, but I think that's a bad comparison. A movie is a movie -- it only spans a short amount of time. It's much more plausible that we wouldn't hear about the Dominion War in INS than that we wouldn't hear about a major Borg incursion throughout the entirety of DS9 and VOY. Something like that is just bigger than any other event that could plausibly not come up -- even bigger than the Dominion War, frankly, because even with the Dominion War, the Federation wasn't facing instant imminent death.
 
Well, maybe they weren't "facing instant imminent death." Maybe several worlds on the border of the UFP were assimilated before a fleet came in and managed to replicate the "sleep" command or something similar, stopping them before they approached the core of the Federation. Or something.

Sure, logically you'd expect something like that to be mentioned, but there are tons of instances in Trek continuity where events that should be mentioned never are because they took place on different series or because they were retconned in later.
 
Also, Betazed was conquered by the Dominion. Wouldn't that be worth mention since one of TNG's main cast is (part) Betazoid?
 
Janeway reads the log of that other starship captain in Scorpion and we don't know when that happened. and Marika Wilkara was assimilated at a later point than Wolf 359 off the Excalibur.
 
David R George III has just posted on FB that although the vague blurb implies/infers that his novel begins in 2384, he says it actually picks up where the other books leave off.

Well done, Simon & Schuster for getting it wrong, again.
 
Well, maybe they weren't "facing instant imminent death." Maybe several worlds on the border of the UFP were assimilated before a fleet came in and managed to replicate the "sleep" command or something similar, stopping them before they approached the core of the Federation. Or something.

Like I said, I can buy a small-scale attack on a ship or small starbase from a sphere, or a scout like we saw at the beginning of "Dark Frontier," not being something we'd hear about. But a cube attack is so large and so inherently dangerous that I just find it implausible to imagine that one had happened.

Also, Betazed was conquered by the Dominion. Wouldn't that be worth mention since one of TNG's main cast is (part) Betazoid?

One of the many reasons I tend to place INS in the weeks between the Dominion surrender at Cardassia and Worf's departure from the station as Federation Ambassador. ;)

Janeway reads the log of that other starship captain in Scorpion and we don't know when that happened. and Marika Wilkara was assimilated at a later point than Wolf 359 off the Excalibur.

Which makes a small-scale attack plausible. Didn't No Limits feature a short story about a Borg sphere attacking the Excalibur?

David R George III has just posted on FB that although the vague blurb implies/infers that his novel begins in 2384, he says it actually picks up where the other books leave off.

Well done, Simon & Schuster for getting it wrong, again.

It's just awful, isn't it? Why, you'd almost think there might have been a simple miscommunication that doesn't really matter much because the blurb being quoted was never meant for widespread public advertisement in the first place!
 
I took Picard's rant in FC to mean that the Borg were steadily encroaching on their territory. The Borg occasionally swoop in and assimilate a far-flung Federation world, and Starfleet has no choice but to consider it a loss and fall back.

Big deals are retconned into Trek history all the time (the Cardassian war, Remans, Enterprise NX-01 etc) - that's how I saw this. "Oh, sorry, didn't we mention that? How silly of us..."
 
I took Picard's rant in FC to mean that the Borg were steadily encroaching on their territory. The Borg occasionally swoop in and assimilate a far-flung Federation world, and Starfleet has no choice but to consider it a loss and fall back.

I really don't think that's a reasonable interpretation of his line. In addition to being far too big of a threat to the Federation to buy the idea that it wouldn't be remarked upon somewhere in DS9 or VOY, there's also the fact that it directly contradicts Picard's line at the beginning of the film: "Captain's Log, Stardate 50893.5. The moment I have been dreading for nearly six years has arrived. The Borg, our most lethal enemy, have begun an invasion of the Federation."

Well, the Borg can't have "begun an invasion" that he's dreaded for nearly six years if they've been invading for six years, now can they?

The Borg scooped up the colony on Jouret IV in 2366, and they destroyed the colony on Ivor Prime in 2373. Their two cubes were able to penetrate Federation defenses, and force constant fallbacks as Starfleet tried to repel them. More than sufficient to account for Picard's rant.
 
But the Borg aren't invading. They're just going about their buisness, oblivious (or not caring) whose allegance their new Borg planet once had. BoBW and FC, however, were deliberate invasions.

I'd dispute that what we saw in TNG qualifies as "assimiating entire worlds". We saw craters where cities on colonies once stood. Nothing like the Borgified Earth glimpsed in FC or the Borg planet destroyed in "Scorpion"
 
Like I said, I can buy a small-scale attack on a ship or small starbase from a sphere, or a scout like we saw at the beginning of "Dark Frontier," not being something we'd hear about. But a cube attack is so large and so inherently dangerous that I just find it implausible to imagine that one had happened.

And like I said, this isn't a coherent reality, it's a bunch of works of fiction that pretend to represent a coherent reality but sometimes choose to portray it selectively. There are cases where big events that you'd realistically expect to be mentioned do not get mentioned because the realism of a work of fiction only goes so far. Stories need to concentrate on events that are directly relevant to them, and so they don't generally include mention of outside events that don't directly pertain to the story, no matter how big they are.

Heck, this even happens in the literature. The events of The Genesis Wave were portrayed therein as extremely cataclysmic and affecting many worlds and many billions of people. And there have been enough references to elements of TGW to establish that it did occur in the main novel continuity (or at least the first two books did, since the third has elements contradicted by Titan). However, that reputedly massive cataclysm is rarely acknowledged in other books, its effects never really shown.

And as I said, apparently the Federation was at war with Cardassia during TNG's first two seasons, but those seasons portrayed the UFP as being entirely at peace. "The Wounded" retconned a conflict into existence that had never been hinted at before. So these things do have canonical precedent.

But these can be dealt with by taking a cue from Poul Anderson's Terran Empire series, and realizing how difficult it would be to keep track of events within a civilization spanning hundreds of entire star systems. Most of us don't know a fraction of what's going on right here on this one planet, or at least aren't directly affected by it. For instance, right now there's a massive drought and famine in the Horn of Africa, governments are being overthrown all over the Muslim world, the Greek economy is falling apart, etc. -- but if you were to write a story about the biggest thing that happened to you or the people around you in the past month, there might not be a single mention of any of those things, because they didn't affect the events of your particular story. And when you expand that to a Federation including hundreds of worlds, it becomes even more inevitable that you could have a massive, cataclysmic event in one part of the Federation and yet hear virtually nothing about it in another. Sure, it's a bit of a contrived fix for continuity problems, but it's a plausible one, and those problems are going to happen no matter what.


Which makes a small-scale attack plausible. Didn't No Limits feature a short story about a Borg sphere attacking the Excalibur?

I don't recall if it was a sphere or a cube, but yes. However, that story got the chronology wrong, since the story is set in 2369, a year after the flashbacks in "Survival Instinct" featuring the assimilated Excalibur crewmember Marikah Wilkarah.
 
Maybe Picard's line about assimilating worlds and such wasn't referring to the Federation itself, but rather was him tapping into the mental link he had with the Collective and seeing the assimilation of other worlds outside Federation space. The stress he was obviously under at the time could have blurred the lines between his memory and the Collective's.
 
Maybe Picard's line about assimilating worlds and such wasn't referring to the Federation itself, but rather was him tapping into the mental link he had with the Collective and seeing the assimilation of other worlds outside Federation space. The stress he was obviously under at the time could have blurred the lines between his memory and the Collective's.

But he said "They invade and we fall back." So he was identifying with their victims, not with the Collective.
 
Not to mention the Ivor Prime colony whose destruction was reported at the beginning of FC.

And the "scooped out" technology stolen from the outposts (both Starfleet and Romulan) way back in "The Neutral Zone", which the writers planted as a seed to be followed up - eventually in "Q Who", although it wasn't spelled out canonically.
 
^Yes, it was spelled out, though barely. From "Q Who?":
WORF: It is as though some great force just scooped all the machine elements off the face of the planet.
DATA: It is identical to what happened to the outposts along the Neutral Zone.
 
But the Borg aren't invading. They're just going about their buisness, oblivious (or not caring) whose allegance their new Borg planet once had. BoBW and FC, however, were deliberate invasions.

... I'm sorry, but that's absurd. Picard wouldn't care if the BORG viewed it as an invasion; if they were to take a Federation world, even a remote one, that would be an invasion from a Federation POV.

Since Picard says there's been no invasion between BoBW and ST:FC, the most reasonable interpretation is that he's referring to the events of BoBW and FC.

Like I said, I can buy a small-scale attack on a ship or small starbase from a sphere, or a scout like we saw at the beginning of "Dark Frontier," not being something we'd hear about. But a cube attack is so large and so inherently dangerous that I just find it implausible to imagine that one had happened.

And like I said, this isn't a coherent reality, it's a bunch of works of fiction that pretend to represent a coherent reality but sometimes choose to portray it selectively. There are cases where big events that you'd realistically expect to be mentioned do not get mentioned because the realism of a work of fiction only goes so far. Stories need to concentrate on events that are directly relevant to them, and so they don't generally include mention of outside events that don't directly pertain to the story, no matter how big they are.

Let me put it this way:

If there were a line somewhere that explicitly established a major Borg invasion between BoBW and ST:FC, yeah, we could justify it as creative license.

But there isn't. There's just Picard's emotional meltdown, which can easily refer to the worlds taken in BoBW and ST:FC and which does not indicate an ongoing conflict with the Borg. Add to that Picard's captain's log entry, which explicitly states that there's been no invasion of Federation space. I just don't think it's a reasonable interpretation of his emotional meltdown line to infer that there's been anything beyond maybe the occasional small ship attack.

There's no line establishing any ongoing Borg invasions that we have to then justify into canon by citing creative license. Rather, this would be citing creative license to justify inserting ongoing Borg incursions where none are established.
 
Sci, I question your assumption that the only two possibilities are "ongoing Borg invasion" and "a few minor incidents." There's a lot of middle ground between those extremes, a lot of intermediate possibilities that should at least be considered. I think the only person in this thread who's talking about an "ongoing invasion" is you, so I think you've chosen to define the question in a way that's keeping you from hearing what others are actually proposing.

Here's Picard's line: "We've made too many compromises already. Too many retreats. They invade our space and we fall back. They assimilate entire worlds, and we fall back. Not again!" The key concepts there are "invade our space," "assimilate entire worlds," and "retreat/fall back." Now, Federation space is a huge amount of territory with many worlds in it. Isn't it possible that the Borg could've picked off some border worlds here and there, intermittently, without it being the same kind of full-on invasion seen in BoBW or FC?

Let's also consider the entirety of Picard's log entry: "The moment I have dreaded for nearly six years has finally arrived. The Borg, our most lethal enemy have begun an invasion of the Federation, and this time there may be no stopping them." Now, if that last clause hadn't been appended, your reading of the line would be the only possibility: that there had been zero invasions in those six years. But that final clause -- "this time there may be no stopping them" -- is worth taking a look at. How does he know that "this time" the invasion might be unstoppable? Presumably based on what he sensed of the Borg's intent through his mental link with them. So that suggests that his concern isn't just that this is an invasion, but that it's a special kind of invasion where the Borg are even more relentless than usual. Which does seem to me to leave room for the possibility that there could have been additional major incursions within those six years, not as big as the one in FC, but big enough to cost entire worlds. Maybe something where the Federation had to sacrifice a planet or two in order to assemble a big enough fleet to stop the cube afterward, which could explain the references to compromise and falling back. Not a sure thing, no, but a possibility worth considering, at least.
 
Sci, I question your assumption that the only two possibilities are "ongoing Borg invasion" and "a few minor incidents." There's a lot of middle ground between those extremes, a lot of intermediate possibilities that should at least be considered.

With any other power, I'd agree -- but I really don't think there is a middle ground with the Borg. They're either there just to take a look-see or they're there to take over.

I think the only person in this thread who's talking about an "ongoing invasion" is you, so I think you've chosen to define the question in a way that's keeping you from hearing what others are actually proposing.

Christopher, it's not that I'm not hearing what others are saying. It's that I simply, and without ambiguity, disagree. I've explained why I don't think it's reasonable to interpret Picard's line in ST:FC as referring to anything beyond the occasional, isolated, small-scale attack (if that). Others disagree. I don't think there's anything left to say.
 
I honestly, always assumed that the line was referring to the Borg encounters we saw on TNG. But thinking about it more, I don't think it would be completely unreasonable to think that it could be referring to other encounters that other ships have had with the Borg over the years. Thinking about it more, I find it kind of hard to believe that the Borg Collective would have completely ignored the Federation in the time between The Best of Both Worlds and First Contact. I wouldn't think it would be hard to believe that an occaisional Starfleet ship might have run into cube or sphere while out on the Federation's border. I doubt they were full on attacks or invasions, but it wouldn't be surprise me if they were just out doing their thing and ran into each.
 
David R George III has just posted on FB that although the vague blurb implies/infers that his novel begins in 2384, he says it actually picks up where the other books leave off.

Well done, Simon & Schuster for getting it wrong, again.

It really bothers me how poorly the franchise as well as S&S market their books. I wonder if they even try to generate enthusiasm or if they expect the books to just sell themselves based upon the fan following.
 
Well, if you're talking about the early blurbs and that stuff, you need to keep in mind that those are just place holders that are actually meant just for the retailers, not fans. If you notice most of the time once we start seeing the actual official blurb, they're usually accurate and alot more detailed.
As for marketing in general, they have actually started to do quite a bit of it lately. We have reviews and articles on Trekmovie, the occasional story on the official Star Trek website (a couple weeks they had a little story announcing the publication of Rise Like Lions), and reviews and interviews on Unreality. Sure we might not see stuff on TV or mainstream sites, but for such niche thing, that's still pretty good if you ask me.
 
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