TOS- Overrated?

[xortex]

But that's exactly what the Admiral was doing. I should be a mod here. this is a ridiculous conversation for anyone who doesn't have me on ignore. What you're advocating is that if the Federation didn't tape their planet, someone else would have which is ludicrously jumping the gun.

 

[sonak]

I'm going to regret engaging in this, but...


1. so you think property rights are more important than medical benefits for billions?(which is what this debate comes down to)

2. it's not a Baku planet, they're not even a real civilization, they're an artificial village that broke off from a REAL civilization, and they're in UFP space. they didn't even originate from that planet.

3. the Son'a have just as much right to the planet as the Baku

the Baku have no legal or ethical ground to stand on.

Tell me where you live so I can invade your country, take it from you, put you in a far worser place where you die much sooner and then tell you with a smug smiling that it will be for the benefit of millions.

spt

 

[xortex]

I'm going to regret engaging in this, but...


1. so you think property rights are more important than medical benefits for billions?(which is what this debate comes down to)

2. it's not a Baku planet, they're not even a real civilization, they're an artificial village that broke off from a REAL civilization, and they're in UFP space. they didn't even originate from that planet.

3. the Son'a have just as much right to the planet as the Baku

the Baku have no legal or ethical ground to stand on.

Your description fits the US. Broke off from a real civilisation, Europe, didn't originate in America.
Tell me whether you actually live in the US such that I can invade your country, take it from you, put you in a far worser place where you die much sooner and then tell you with a smug smiling that it will be for the benefit of millions.

Heck Europe and Mexico are doing that to us right now.

 

[xortex]

I'm going to regret engaging in this, but...


1. so you think property rights are more important than medical benefits for billions?(which is what this debate comes down to)

2. it's not a Baku planet, they're not even a real civilization, they're an artificial village that broke off from a REAL civilization, and they're in UFP space. they didn't even originate from that planet.

3. the Son'a have just as much right to the planet as the Baku

the Baku have no legal or ethical ground to stand on.

Tell me where you live so I can invade your country, take it from you, put you in a far worser place where you die much sooner and then tell you with a smug smiling that it will be for the benefit of millions.

1. the Baku aren't a country.
2. the Baku die MUCH SOONER? What about the rest of the galaxy? they should suffer so a tiny village can live longer.



I notice that for an "intellectual," your responses are filled with emotional tirades and personal insults while others are engaging in polite debate

The rest of the universe is not suffering. I'm out of here.

 

[BillJ]

I actually advocate the common sense solution. The one that allows the Ba'ku to survive as a culture without forcing the Federation to commit massive resources or lives. It's what I alluded to earlier about certain situations not fitting a rule written by someone at Starfleet Command.

Ant this means concretely what?

You ever work for a company but have the home office that makes decisions on processes several hundred miles away? By people who never actually did the work in question? If you have then you should understand the second part.

As to the first part, whether I benefit by the move or not, I move them. Simply because they're sitting on something very unique that many unsavory elements may want to get ahold of. The Ba'ku are simply incapable of protecting themselves and I won't have their six hundred deaths on my conscious.

 

[horatio83]

1. the Baku aren't a country.
2. the Baku die MUCH SOONER? What about the rest of the galaxy? they should suffer so a tiny village can live longer.



I notice that for an "intellectual," your responses are filled with emotional tirades and personal insults while others are engaging in polite debate

Still haven't told me where you live? Afraid that I will actually come and serve you some of your own invasion medicine?
May I turn your arguments around. We all live in the first world. What about the rest of the world? Should they suffer such that a tiny village can live longer? So go on, sell all your luxury goods and feed some of the starving kids in the third world.
This comparison should have clearified the problems of your argument.

Heck Europe and Mexico are doing that to us right now.

Whatever you do smoke, I want some of it. After you are sober you might wanna take a look at a map to learn about the border between the US and the EU. Then I want you to check the military alliances of the US and reconsider your hallucinations about a European invasion of North America.

 

[AdmiralScreed]

This conversation makes me wonder if Starfleet even considered that other factions would also be after the power of the Baku planet. If they had, and if Dougherty had explained this to Picard, there argument in the film for removing the Baku people would have been more convincing (their argument is already convincing to begin with), and it wouldn't have made them look imperialistic.

 

[horatio83]

You ever work for a company but have the home office that makes decisions on processes several hundred miles away? By people who never actually did the work in question? If you have then you should understand the second part.

As to the first part, whether I benefit by the move or not, I move them. Simply because they're sitting on something very unique that many unsavory elements may want to get ahold of. The Ba'ku are simply incapable of protecting themselves and I won't have their six hundred deaths on my conscious.

They don't want your help, you are not responsible for their deaths. But you are responsible for forcing them to do something against their will. I could just as easily claim that you are incapable of protecting yourself and then force you to do whatever suits me. Unlike you I know how wrong this is.
Like any imperialist you put forward noble reasons for your nasty actions. Nice try.

 

[BillJ]

This conversation makes me wonder if Starfleet even considered that other factions would also be after the power of the Baku planet. If they had, and if Dougherty had explained this to Picard, there argument in the film for removing the Baku people would have been more convincing (their argument is already convincing to begin with), and it wouldn't have made them look imperialistic.

Picard never asked. He automatically assumed the worst and violated orders multiple times, interfering with someone else mission.

 

[AdmiralScreed]

This conversation makes me wonder if Starfleet even considered that other factions would also be after the power of the Baku planet. If they had, and if Dougherty had explained this to Picard, there argument in the film for removing the Baku people would have been more convincing (their argument is already convincing to begin with), and it wouldn't have made them look imperialistic.

Picard never asked. He automatically assumed the worst and violated orders multiple times, interfering with someone else mission.

Nevertheless, Dougherty made a strong attempt to convince Picard that what the Federation was doing was justified. If protecting the Baku from other factions had been that important to Starfleet, you would think that Dougherty would have mentioned this to Picard.
My only explanation for this is that either a) the writers of INS didn't consider this possibility, or b) they did consider it, but if Dougherty had mentioned this to Picard it would have made Starfleet look right and Picard look wrong, and since Picard is the protagonist he needs to look right in order for audiences to support him.

 

[horatio83]

Picard never asked. He automatically assumed the worst and violated orders multiple times, interfering with someone else mission.

Nothing about Romulans and Klingons in the script, it exists merely in your head.

Picard defied an order that violates everything Starfleet stands for. You might feel happy about forcing someone to do something against their will, I as well as any other decent human being is not.

 

[BillJ]

You ever work for a company but have the home office that makes decisions on processes several hundred miles away? By people who never actually did the work in question? If you have then you should understand the second part.

As to the first part, whether I benefit by the move or not, I move them. Simply because they're sitting on something very unique that many unsavory elements may want to get ahold of. The Ba'ku are simply incapable of protecting themselves and I won't have their six hundred deaths on my conscious.

They don't want your help, you are not responsible for their deaths. But you are responsible for forcing them to do something against their will. I could just as easily claim that you are incapable of protecting yourself and then force you to do whatever suits me. Unlike you I know how wrong this is.
Like any imperialist you put forward noble reasons for your nasty actions. Nice try.

Didn't say that I cared whether they want my help or not. They exist on a planet within my borders, which makes them my problem. Their existence on that planet potentially compromises my borders. Their existence on that planet puts me in the position of potential conflict with one or more of my neighbors.

So I simply move them and strip the planet of the resource. If in fifty or sixty years when the planet is again inhabitable they're more than welcomed to go back.

 

[BillJ]

Picard never asked. He automatically assumed the worst and violated orders multiple times, interfering with someone else mission.

Nothing about Romulans and Klingons in the script, it exists merely in your head.

Picard defied an order that violates everything Starfleet stands for. You might feel happy about forcing someone to do something against their will, I as well as any other decent human being is not.

You mean his orders to go to the Goren system that he abandoned or his orders from Dougherty that the Enterprise wasn't equipped for the Briar Patch and should stay out? Picard was violating orders before he even knew anything was going on.

 

[horatio83]

Didn't say that I cared whether they want my help or not. They exist on a planet within my borders, which makes them my problem. Their existence on that planet potentially compromises my borders. Their existence on that planet puts me in the position of potential conflict with one or more of my neighbors.

So I simply move them and strip the planet of the resource. If in fifty or sixty years when the planet is again inhabitable they're more than welcomed to go back.

They die if you force them off the planet. Now you can of course play Dougherty and claim that they were never meant to be immortal and I can play Picard and claim that these are sovereign people. You have no right to decide their fate.
What happens if you force a neighbour out of his house or your apartment and take over his property? I wanna hear you talking to the judge about you having had good reasons to force him or having wanted to preempt future conflicts with another neighbour.

Wrong is wrong, no matter how you try to spin it.

 

[xortex]

1. the Baku aren't a country.
2. the Baku die MUCH SOONER? What about the rest of the galaxy? they should suffer so a tiny village can live longer.



I notice that for an "intellectual," your responses are filled with emotional tirades and personal insults while others are engaging in polite debate

Still haven't told me where you live? Afraid that I will actually come and serve you some of your own invasion medicine?
May I turn your arguments around. We all live in the first world. What about the rest of the world? Should they suffer such that a tiny village can live longer? So go on, sell all your luxury goods and feed some of the starving kids in the third world.
This comparison should have clearified the problems of your argument.

Heck Europe and Mexico are doing that to us right now.

Whatever you do smoke, I want some of it. After you are sober you might wanna take a look at a map to learn about the border between the US and the EU. Then I want you to check the military alliances of the US and reconsider your hallucinations about a European invasion of North America.

The Admiral in Insurrection didn't want to invade the Bakku planet. He just wanted what they had. It would have been interesting if the Bakku had been so mentally superior that conquering them wouldn't have been even possible if they had tried that option. Alliances are meaningless. Just ask Chamberlain. He got Hitler's signature and everything. Even the Pope was on Hitler's side just like we were on Sadam Hussain's side at one point because it benifitted us to do so. American bullets are still killing palistinians. They might as well be american Indians as there's nobody else that's being blamed for that except us.

It wasn't just the principle of the Admiral overstepping his bounds.

 

[horatio83]

I also "merely" want what you have so give me your credit number. As you said yourself, nothing wrong about it so go on and give it to me.
Dougherty did want to move the Ba'ku from A to B. That's indeed not an invasion but "merely" a forceful relocation. The result is the same.

This feels totally surreal, I have to actually argue that theft is wrong. Do I also have to argue that rape and murder is wrong?

 

[AdmiralScreed]

They die if you force them off the planet.

Do they instantly die if they are removed from their planet? Or do they just return to their normal aging process and live another 70 or more years like most people of their physical age would. I don't recall this being addressed in the film, so I was just under the impression that once they were relocated they would just move on with their lives, only now they would no longer be immortal and so they would age like everyone else.
Is there an official answer to this?

 

[sonak]

1. the Baku aren't a country.
2. the Baku die MUCH SOONER? What about the rest of the galaxy? they should suffer so a tiny village can live longer.



I notice that for an "intellectual," your responses are filled with emotional tirades and personal insults while others are engaging in polite debate

Still haven't told me where you live? Afraid that I will actually come and serve you some of your own invasion medicine?
May I turn your arguments around. We all live in the first world. What about the rest of the world? Should they suffer such that a tiny village can live longer? So go on, sell all your luxury goods and feed some of the starving kids in the third world.
This comparison should have clearified the problems of your argument.

Heck Europe and Mexico are doing that to us right now.

Whatever you do smoke, I want some of it. After you are sober you might wanna take a look at a map to learn about the border between the US and the EU. Then I want you to check the military alliances of the US and reconsider your hallucinations about a European invasion of North America.

well, I live in the USA. So I'm not terribly concerned about you invading. We're pretty well-defended


unlike, say the Baku, faux-"pacifists" who let others fight for them.


hey, speaking of the Third World, weren't you defending the PD for leaving less-advanced cultures to suffer?


So I'm getting lectured on ethics by a guy who thinks that the property rights of a few are more important than the health of billions, AND who thinks that letting certain cultures die out because they're not technically advanced enough is okay.




I think not.

 

[horatio83]

They die if you force them off the planet.

Do they instantly die if they are removed from their planet? Or do they just return to their normal aging process and live another 70 or more years like most people of their physical age would. I don't recall this being addressed in the film, so I was just under the impression that once they were relocated they would just move on with their lives, only now they would no longer be immortal and so they would age like everyone else.
Is there an official answer to this?

The So'na are Ba'ku who have been away from their homeplanet for some time. So there you have your answer, they literally fall apart and without the high-tech medicine of the So'na they fall apart even faster.

 

[BillJ]

Thanks guys! Made me move back to the desktop, not easy typing these responses on the iPad.

Nevertheless, Dougherty made a strong attempt to convince Picard that what the Federation was doing was justified.

I guess I'm looking at how tolerant would Picard (or any other captain) be in answering questions from a junior officer from another ship about an assignment that he was in charge of.

What happens if you force a neighbour out of his house or your apartment and take over his property? I wanna hear you talking to the judge about you having had good reasons to force him or having wanted to preempt future conflicts with another neighbour.

Wrong is wrong, no matter how you try to spin it.

See your stacking the deck in a way that's not present in the film. Now what if your neighbors house is on your property? How much different does your appearance in front of the judge become?

I'm not willing to spend Federation lives on six hundred squatters and I'm not allowing six hundred squatters to be slaughtered because they don't want to move. Here in the States, we can move people out of their houses if there's proof continuing to live there can be hazardous to their continued health. Usually it because the property is unsound but there can be other reasons as well.