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'Requiem for Methuselah' - FLYNT - Most fleshed out villian on TOS?

Captain Tracy

Commander
Red Shirt
Last night, I watch 'Requiem', which has always been a favorite - right up to where KIRK starts making out with FLYNT's personal blow-up doll, REYNA;... not saying I wouldn't LOL! - and it occurred to me that with the exception on KAHN in Space Seed, FLYNT has one of the most fully developed backgrounds of any of the other villains we meet.

Another thing I thought about was that when discussing the computers and computer devices in TREK, we always talk about Landru, Nomad, Doomsday Machine, Daystrom's M-5, ect,.. but that little M-4 is absolutely the most kick-@ss little guard dog/ Butler,... Have to get myself one of those!

So,... if you had to choose,.. would you take either:

1) your own fully functional replica of FLYNT's M-4 robot

-or-

2) your own fully functional replica of REYNA (before she becomes self-aware and turns into Stella Mudd).

Just Curious LOL!
 
Re: 'Requiem for Methuselah' - FLYNT - Most fleshed out villian on TOS

Retroactively, I came to like "Requiem" as a quasi-sequel to Bixby's wonderful "The Man from Earth". It's nice to see that the theme of an immortal being was such a fascinating thing to him as a writer. And I like the idea that John Oldman from "The Men from Earth" eventually left earth, because he got tired of humans. Somehow it also made sense that he'd use the new technology to build himself a companion. Sad thing his story doesn't really get a proper conclusion, though.

As for Flint's qualities as a villain: Personally, I never really thought of him as such.
 
Re: 'Requiem for Methuselah' - FLYNT - Most fleshed out villian on TOS

One of my favorites. I love the "nobility" theme music of open fifths. "Forget" at the end is one of the best character moments in all of Trek.

I don't count Leonardo Brahms as a villain.
 
Re: 'Requiem for Methuselah' - FLYNT - Most fleshed out villian on TOS

Requiem is one of my favourite episodes although I recognize that many find it to be one of the weaker ones. I agree that Flynt is not really a villain per se, although he can be villainous.

To answer your original question, I would rather have M-4 than Rayna. I have no trouble finding women, but an all-in-one butler, bodyguard, chemist, and silverware polisher...that's something you don't find everyday!
 
Re: 'Requiem for Methuselah' - FLYNT - Most fleshed out villian on TOS

I liked the whole immortal thing with Flint.

To me it was a very good episode, but trust James T to want to hit on his woman.

I didnt regard Flint as a villain.
 
Re: 'Requiem for Methuselah' - FLYNT - Most fleshed out villian on TOS

On Villains,... in story craft, a villain is the Antagonist, being a character who acts as any force in opposition between the protagonist (HERO) and the GOAL, it is not a description of how the character plays out, but describes their function in the story.

As Flynt functions as the obstacle between KIRK and Company acquiring the Ryetalyn, he is the villain in the story; which has absolutely nothing to do with how a specific character is portrayed by an actor as either: good, neutral, or evil.
 
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Re: 'Requiem for Methuselah' - FLYNT - Most fleshed out villian on TOS

^ No. Flint may be antagonistic at first. But he's certainly not a villain. The terms are not interchangeable.
 
Re: 'Requiem for Methuselah' - FLYNT - Most fleshed out villian on TOS

You are confusing the description of how a character is portrayed (i.e. ACTING in a villainous manner) with their proper label as a literary FUNCTION,.. which has ZERO to do with what a character ACTS like.

Step away from the adjective, and embrace the NOUN. ;)
 
Re: 'Requiem for Methuselah' - FLYNT - Most fleshed out villian on TOS

I've always disliked the "I was every famous man in history" angle. What, mankind produced no OTHER person with talent?
 
Re: 'Requiem for Methuselah' - FLYNT - Most fleshed out villian on TOS

He was a bunch of famosos but not the only one, right?

It sort of makes sense if one has talent, that living a bunch of lifetimes would give you a bunch of chances to succeed, and sometimes you would. Plus the years of experience would add up, like the 10,000 hours hypothesis much discussed recently since "Outliers."
 
Re: 'Requiem for Methuselah' - FLYNT - Most fleshed out villian on TOS

You are confusing the description of how a character is portrayed (i.e. ACTING in a villainous manner) with their proper label as a literary FUNCTION,.. which has ZERO to do with what a character ACTS like.

Step away from the adjective, and embrace the NOUN. ;)

Must we all be literary critics when we speak of Star Trek?

Your definition of any force in opposition between the hero and his/her goal is so nebulous that broken elevators might be "villains." A friend who stops the hero from going into a booby-trapped room filled with cash is arguably villain.

How do we determine the villain function when there is no clear-cut goal or when goals in the story change?

And what if there is no clear protagonist? How is the protagonist marked (if character does not matter, we've erased the most straightforward marker)?

Kirk is ostensibly the hero of the story, but this notion is challenged very early. He demands natural resources on the basis of need and threatens to use force (very different from the Kirk who was attempting to negotiate with Halkans in Mirror Mirror). Kirk develops a sudden and irrational attachment to a robot and attempts to "liberate" her on the basis of that attachment. Kirk behaves so badly that at the end of the episode Spock has to give him a Vulcan roofie so he can forget the affair.

The hero of the story isn't the hero. The narrative is not a heroic, but tragic. Spock even stands to the side like a Greek Chorus warning Kirk not to be an idiot, but he takes no heed and tells him to shut up because he is fighting over a woman.

Now, if we are absolutely limited to speaking of heroes in terms of functions, we can never learn the lesson that heroes are not always the hero, because someone like you will correct us "Yes, he IS, it's his literary function and character has nothing to do with it."

On the other hand, there is truth to your perspective. We could not have learned the lesson that the "hero is not the hero" unless we had successfully marked Kirk, at least initially, as the protagonist of the piece. There can be no reversal if the hero is not marked in the text. We need to have access to both senses for literature to fully function as a way of "saying something" and producing "aesthetic experience."

Your structural notion of villain-function is useful (even if it needs specification) and it should not be entirely purged in favor of a character-based definition.

In ordinary language, however, when we speak of villains we are not merely speaking of functions, but also making a judgment about the character of those who are placed under that label.

If we're being fair, I think we have to allow for speaking of villains in both registers of function and character.

When someone muses that Flynt wasn't really a villain, they are not contesting his literary function. They are operating under one understanding of the term. Moreover, they are demonstrating that they understood what the message of that episode was. As a writer, it would be more gratifying to find that one's reader "got the message", rather than correctly identified formal roles of the characters. If we get the message we might conclude that there is no single villain in this Trek story. And this recognition might cause us to ask if there is something more to be had than a simple and limiting definition of terms like hero and villain. We might demand more complicated definitions or at least note the inadequacy of the definitions we have. And if we can do so with justification, we will not simply have to default to your preferred definition as regulating our discussion of the thread title and the OP.
 
Re: 'Requiem for Methuselah' - FLYNT - Most fleshed out villian on TOS

...Although by those standards, Nichelle Nichols' character is named Uhuru.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Re: 'Requiem for Methuselah' - FLYNT - Most fleshed out villian on TOS

Only for the episodes that spelling was used ;)
 
Re: 'Requiem for Methuselah' - FLYNT - Most fleshed out villian on TOS

You are confusing the description of how a character is portrayed (i.e. ACTING in a villainous manner) with their proper label as a literary FUNCTION,.. which has ZERO to do with what a character ACTS like.

Step away from the adjective, and embrace the NOUN. ;)

Must we all be literary critics when we speak of Star Trek?

Your definition of any force in opposition between the hero and his/her goal is so nebulous that broken elevators might be "villains." A friend who stops the hero from going into a booby-trapped room filled with cash is arguably villain.

How do we determine the villain function when there is no clear-cut goal or when goals in the story change?

And what if there is no clear protagonist? How is the protagonist marked (if character does not matter, we've erased the most straightforward marker)?

Kirk is ostensibly the hero of the story, but this notion is challenged very early. He demands natural resources on the basis of need and threatens to use force (very different from the Kirk who was attempting to negotiate with Halkans in Mirror Mirror). Kirk develops a sudden and irrational attachment to a robot and attempts to "liberate" her on the basis of that attachment. Kirk behaves so badly that at the end of the episode Spock has to give him a Vulcan roofie so he can forget the affair.

The hero of the story isn't the hero. The narrative is not a heroic, but tragic. Spock even stands to the side like a Greek Chorus warning Kirk not to be an idiot, but he takes no heed and tells him to shut up because he is fighting over a woman.

Now, if we are absolutely limited to speaking of heroes in terms of functions, we can never learn the lesson that heroes are not always the hero, because someone like you will correct us "Yes, he IS, it's his literary function and character has nothing to do with it."

On the other hand, there is truth to your perspective. We could not have learned the lesson that the "hero is not the hero" unless we had successfully marked Kirk, at least initially, as the protagonist of the piece. There can be no reversal if the hero is not marked in the text. We need to have access to both senses for literature to fully function as a way of "saying something" and producing "aesthetic experience."

Your structural notion of villain-function is useful (even if it needs specification) and it should not be entirely purged in favor of a character-based definition.

In ordinary language, however, when we speak of villains we are not merely speaking of functions, but also making a judgment about the character of those who are placed under that label.

If we're being fair, I think we have to allow for speaking of villains in both registers of function and character.

When someone muses that Flynt wasn't really a villain, they are not contesting his literary function. They are operating under one understanding of the term. Moreover, they are demonstrating that they understood what the message of that episode was. As a writer, it would be more gratifying to find that one's reader "got the message", rather than correctly identified formal roles of the characters. If we get the message we might conclude that there is no single villain in this Trek story. And this recognition might cause us to ask if there is something more to be had than a simple and limiting definition of terms like hero and villain. We might demand more complicated definitions or at least note the inadequacy of the definitions we have. And if we can do so with justification, we will not simply have to default to your preferred definition as regulating our discussion of the thread title and the OP.

ROFLMAO!!!

These our not MY definitions
, they actually were stated formally by a fellow named ARISTOTLE, voiced in a little piece under the name of POETICS (which means 'making'); to become the cornerstone of literary theory and definition, embraced by the entire educated western world (which does not refer to Cowboys who went to school).

So,... Addressing the ACTUAL QUESTION of the original post,....

Which do you desire more, the ROBOT or THE ROBOT BABE?
 
Re: 'Requiem for Methuselah' - FLYNT - Most fleshed out villian on TOS

ROFLMAO!!!

These our not MY definitions
, they actually were stated formally by a fellow named ARISTOTLE

Actually, we're not entirely sure about the authority of Aristotle's works (e.g., the accuracy, the actually authorship of certain passages) given the tortured transmission history of his texts after he handed the keys of the Lyceum over to Theophrastus.

Bracketing the question of textual authority, we should consider that Aristotle ALSO maintained that women have fewer teeth in their head then men (he apparently never bothered to count the teeth of either of his wives) and that the sun orbits the Earth. Moral: That Aristotle once said something is not an infallible proof.

NOTE: Argument from Authority is acceptable, but not when one attempts to bully one's interlocutor through shaming, as if the mere fact that someone important said something is, in itself, strong proof. You sliding into the territory of fallacious argument from authority.

, voiced in a little piece under the name of POETICS (which means 'making'); to become the cornerstone of literary theory and definition, embraced by the entire educated western world (which does not refer to Cowboys who went to school).

Please refer directly to the part in the Poetics where Aristotle offers YOUR truncated definition of "villain." The text is in the public domain and available for free on the internet if you don't have it handy on your bookshelf.

Also, we should note that the Western world has moved on from simply asking what Aristotle had to say. There are a lot of perspectives out there and no one really educated in this area would attempt to shut down a conversation simply on the grounds that "Aristotle felt otherwise."

Really want to see a good ROFL? Go to a college English department and say something petulant like "The matter is settled because a fellow named Aristotle said thus and such..." Oh, the lulz that would be had....

Finally, we should note that you have touched a single line of analysis that I offered, but have thumped your chest and bellowed ARISTOTLE! ARISTOTLE! Are you sure you want to explore the allegation of anti-intellectualism here?

So,... Addressing the ACTUAL QUESTION of the original post,....

Which do you desire more, the ROBOT or THE ROBOT BABE?

The Robot
 
Re: 'Requiem for Methuselah' - FLYNT - Most fleshed out villian on TOS

2.
 
Re: 'Requiem for Methuselah' - FLYNT - Most fleshed out villian on TOS

LOL! Yes,... the M-4 Robot,.. I think I would like to build a 1:1 scale model of it one day,... that would make for an interesting objet de curiosité in my office.
 
Re: 'Requiem for Methuselah' - FLYNT - Most fleshed out villian on TOS

Yarn - I am in awe. You first ask if we must all be literary critics (I am often guilty as charged), then write some really cool lit analysis. Who ARE you?

As to the debate, Honest to Vaal, I have an English major, wrote on the Poetics (once, like 22 years ago) and I just don't remember "villain" being used synonymously with "antagonist."

The ambiguity of Kirk's part in all this, and its tragedic overtones, are part of why this is a cooler-than-usual ep. Think I'll go watch it!
 
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