The "You Explain It, Thread" Explain it!

[T'Girl]

DS9: In the Cards leaves little room for doubt.

JAKE: I'm human, I don't have any money.
NOG: It's not my fault that your species decided to abandon currency-based economics in favour of some philosophy of self-enhancement.

There isn't much flexibility on how to read that scene, unless Jake is lying or Nog is mistaken.

Look no one doubts that Humans have done away with currency, and it wasn't that long ago (in the series) that Jake was still interested in acquiring money (but not currency).

In the episode Progress, Jake and Nog lay their hands on Five thousand wrappages of yamok sauce, which gets them a hundred gross of self-sealing stem bolts, which gets them seven tessipates of land, which gets them gold-pressed latinum.

JAKE: He doesn't have any latinum. Let's exchange for something.
NOG: I don't want something. I want latinum.
CH'ANO [OC]: I can't hear you. Can I interest you in a piece of land?
JAKE: Land is good.
NOG: For what? It's nothing but dirt.
JAKE: How much land?
CH'ANO [OC]: I can let you have seven tessipates.
JAKE: Seven sounds good.
NOG: First yamok sauce, then stem bolts, now tessipates, and still no profit.
JAKE: We're getting closer. I can feel it.
NOG: You can?
JAKE: I think so.
CH'ANO [OC]: Do we have a deal?
JAKE: We'd have to see proof that you own the land.

(Later)

QUARK: You mean the government can't build without that one piece of land?
ODO: Apparently not.
QUARK: What a wonderful opportunity for profit.
JAKE: I told you that land was better than bolts.

And even in the episode In The Cards, Jake was still trying to lay his hands on gold-pressed latinum, even through he had supposedly adopted the no money philosphy. And if you compare Jake's words in In The Card, to Picard's words in First Contact, their almost exactly word for word the same, like they're both mouthing a slogan.

So is Jake that much different than Riker when he said "we don't eat meat," but later we see him eating eggs? And we see that grandpa Sisko serves meat? And O'Brien eats bacon?

evidently Earth is the only planet in the Federation to go full pinko and do away with money

But, as I sighted above, Quark was able to sell his shuttle there, and use the money to book passage back to DS9 from there. So not everyone on Earth believes in the no money philosphy. Maybe just a few.

This explanation almost works, and even makes sense. Except for the main problem....it seems that humans don't get paid for their work--not even credits.

Well Beverly was getting paid, her jig as a Starfleet doctor would seem to be her only job, and she possessed some kind of "units of value" to have in her account to buy things. And to use in the poker games.

And Riker used "something" to acquire those non-replicated Owon eggs he served his friends.

Everything is apparently free, and needs are provided by replicator apparently, which is why there is no poverty.

The lack of poverty could be a result of near universal employment, something we have almost never had in America, except during the "roaring twenties."

Think about the modern set television you watch. How often do you see people paying for thing? Sometimes sure, but usually the character don't, not in bars, not in stores. This doesn't mean "everything is free," it just not part of the story line.

On the Enterprise, you get a wedding present for the O'Briens from the replicator, it come out of your pay.

 

[JRoss]

Bajor had a famine due the hard time they were having with their crops. Are you saying this was only because crops taste better than replicated food?

 

[captcalhoun]

they didn't have replicators.

 

[T'Girl]

But I don't even think the average human who "works" has credits. Look at Jake-- he was working for the Federation News Service and even sold a book -and didn't get paid for it.

The local news stations here in Seattle accept stories their viewers.

They don't get paid, although the professional reporters who work directly for the station do get paid. Students sometimes even get credentials to obtain access to press events, but they still don't get paid.

Jake Sisko's situation might be similar, he is simply sending "news stories" to the Federation News Service, if the service like them they put Jake's stuff on their news site.

I wonder if Jake sends something like a video diary/Youtube kind of thing to them. At some point (iirc) Jake get some kind of credentials didn't he?

And was his "book" an actual printed - hard bound book, or was it a assemblage of his works on a side thread of the news site?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Jake could have been interning with the FNS, sending them stories to prepare for his writing career. There's no hard evidence he was actively employed with them. Could have been freelancing.

As for replicators: Those are not a magical cure for all of society's ills. Remember, some families (such as the Picards) actively refuse to allow them in their homes. And the Picards are obviously fairly well off. I'm sure they make money selling Chateau Picard and do quite well with it.

And even so, a replicator doesn't just work by magic. They require maintenance, energy, bulk matter, that type of thing.

As for the oft-repeated cliché about the Federation not using money: Pardon the pun but I don't buy it. They do have credits - we've all heard of it. Exactly what those are is up for debate.

But I prefer to take the simplest route and assume that credits are a standard medium of exchange - a true Federation currency. People might not obsess over them, they might not HAVE to work for them to survive, they might not carry around coins and bills (thus giving rise to the thought that credits aren't money), but they still have credits of some kind. It's just the word that lots of sci-fi shows and films like to use when they want to present a money-like system but have it sound futuristic. They don't want to use "dollars" or any other monetary unit that is already in use, because that would make it sound ethnocentric or 'too American'. So they make up a word that nobody uses IRL. That lets fans think of them however they want.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Bajor had a famine due the hard time they were having with their crops. Are you saying this was only because crops taste better than replicated food?

Bingo-- I've seen that theme several times throughout the series-Bajor is having a famine or hard time with the crops.

And yet Starfleet says technology-replicators- could easily feed and clothe them.

Wouldn't it be logical to get replicators into place first, then work on the crop situation?

And I think replicators can actually replicate food with the exact taste and features as the "original" food too.

Jake Sisko: I sold my first book today.
Quark: Really? How much did you get for it?

Jake Sisko: It's just a figure of speech. The Federation News Service is going to publish a book of my stories about life on the station under Dominion rule.

Quark: And they're not paying you?
Jake Sisko: No.

Quark: Well, then you have my sympathies, and the first round of drinks is on the house.
Jake Sisko: Really?

Quark: No. It's a figure of speech.

I'm taking this to mean if you are an author, you are not going to get paid for writing and selling a book. Even though they acknowledge they bought the stories from you.

The Federation is not going to give you Latinum or credits--because they don't pay people.

Which would make sense since humans don't need money, except we see people working hard all the time on Trek--as if they needed the money!


So far no more takers on how the Universal Translator could possibly work? It can't be explained?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Like I said, there is no evidence that Jake was an actual employee of the FNS. He was probably just using them as a method to get his stories off the station - because that was the only way to do it, given that the station was under Dominion control.

As for replicated food: We've seen that there are those who can tell the difference between it and the real thing. Some refuse to eat replicated food for that very reason.

 

[Silvercrest]

I read somewhere that mass is really made up of mostly empty space; so I guess when he shrunk down to the size of a mouse he really just get rid of those spaces. [shrug]

You mean basically compacting himself. That works until he has to disguise his weight as well. Assuming Odo weighs, what, 150 pounds or so, that isn't going to change if all he's shedding is empty space. The first time Odo turns into a glass or tray and waits for Quark to pick him up, Quark is going to notice something.

Which reminds me of one of Mrs. Silvercrest's favorite jokes:

"What would a 200-pound mouse say?"

Spoiler: the punch line

"Here, kitty kitty kitty...."

 

[CorporalCaptain]

So far no more takers on how the Universal Translator could possibly work? It can't be explained?

Pre-programmed translation matrices make sense in cases where those have been worked out in advance. Linguacode exchange also makes sense.

The brain scan thing mentioned in TOS: Metamorphosis unfortunately tends to undermine otherwise wonderful episodes like TNG: Darmok, when you have two races trying to communicate, far-fetched handwaving notwithstanding. Another criticism of Darmok, best overlooked, is that Data was awfully slow on the uptake. The difficulty in understanding the Tamarian language is, I think, best compared to the difficulty in understanding idioms. ("Idiom" is a word unfortunately not spoken on screen in the episode; instead they said "metaphor".) Idiomatic conventions comprise an additional layer on top of basic dictionary meanings, that make many expressions seem impenetrable to non-native speakers. However, it seems far-fetched that the universal translator would be unable to bridge even that gap, assuming it can bridge any gap of communication between alien species at all.

 

[Deckerd]

This is a Timo thread if ever there was one. I'm amazed he hasn't sorted this all out yet.

 

[Vanyel]

In Affliction and Divergence the Klingons attempt at making Augments went wrong. It created Klingons who lack ridges and a virus that killed all Klingons. To stop the virus, Klingons had to be treated with a cure that started the augment process then stopped the virus. It created, Klingons who no longer had ridges and were now immune to the disease. Phlox did not find a vaccine, but a cure. The disease must have been much more wide spread than the Klingons believed and had infected a large enough percentage of the population that killing the infected would have destroyed the Empire. The cure saved them, and their empire, at the cost of their ridges.

Once a vaccine was discovered - and it had to be a vaccine in order to eliminate the disease - it was distributed among the Empire and now we have Klingons with head ridges again.

 

[T'Girl]

Jake Sisko: I sold my first book today.

Jake could have been referring to "sold" as in sold the FNS on the idea of publishing a collection of his stories.

Quark: And they're not paying you?
Jake Sisko: No.

The Federation is not going to give you Latinum or credits--because they don't pay people.

Well first, I don't think the Federation News Service is part of the federation governing body, it's like the America Broadcasting Company is a commercial outfit located (originally) in America.

Second, Jake said they weren't going to pay him. Not that they don't pay anyone. JAke side of it might just have been for the notoriety

(do published authors get chicks?).

Which would make sense since humans don't need money, except we see people working hard all the time on Trek--as if they needed the money!

YMMV, but I still think they earn and spend money.

I don't see how a system of "most everything is free" can exist surrounded by others who don't follow the same philosophy.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Well first, I don't think the Federation News Service is part of the federation governing body, it's like the America Broadcasting Company is a commercial outfit located (originally) in America.

Exactly. And the FNS is not the only news network out there, either. Remember all the reporters on the Ent-B bridge in Generations? There were two other networks represented there besides the FNS: the Earth Broadcasting Service and Starfleet Broadcasting. So there's competition there.

 

[RandyS]

If something doesn't make sense it's because Q is having fun at the universes' expense.

It's all Q's fault, I tell you!

 

[Nightdiamond]

Pre-programmed translation matrices make sense in cases where those have been worked out in advance. Linguacode exchange also makes sense.

This is actually good. A huge data bank of brain patterns are already stored into the translator and correlated with other languages.

But Trek messed it up by saying the thing scans your brain patterns.

Does this thing make you hear your own language, or tampers with your brain patterns?

Well first, I don't think the Federation News Service is part of the federation governing body, it's like the America Broadcasting Company is a commercial outfit located (originally) in America.

Maybe true, but that's suggesting that only the government pays its employees in the 24th century and not private companies.

Second, Jake said they weren't going to pay him. Not that they don't pay anyone.

Isn't that a little weird, though? I risk my life to report for you, and don't get paid anything, but Joe Smoe reports on Risa about a nude tennis game and gets a bonus in credits?

Exactly. And the FNS is not the only news network out there, either. Remember all the reporters on the Ent-B bridge in Generations? There were two other networks represented there besides the FNS: the Earth Broadcasting Service and Starfleet Broadcasting. So there's competition there.

That's what makes it even more strange-- the other two companies might pay their employees, and here the Federation News Service whose policy is to NOT pay theirs? Competition solved lol.

So far, we're at humans beings don't need money, don't use money, but use credits, yet have to work to use the replicator, yet may not get paid at all.


I maintain that the replicator can produce food exactly like the organic original, so there's no excuse about replicated food tasting less authentic.

Bajor's problems and Cardassia's motivations make no sense in that case.

 

[T'Girl]

I maintain that the replicator can produce food exactly like the organic original, so there's no excuse about replicated food tasting less authentic.

Riker preparing omelets in Time Squared said this:

No, you're right, Data.
The ship's computer would be more efficient,
but it wouldn't allow for the subtlety needed for great cooking.
It would give you all of the ingredients in pre-determined measurements,
but wouldn't allow for flair or individuality.
And Data, as we both know,
flair is what marks the difference between artistry and mere competence.

From this, I take away that what comes out of the replicator is ... an adequate substitute. I remember a remake of the movie The Fly, Jeff Goldblum's character creates a transporter, to test it, he sends through a steak (cow). Then he frys it and serves it to Gina Davis's character. She spits it out into her napkin. "It tastes artificial."

What comes out of a replicator, by definition, is artificial. It is a facsimile of real food. If you take some muscle tissue from a freshly killed animal, and apply an electrical current, the muscle will jerk, it will contract. I don't believe a replicated strip of steak tartar would do the same, no matter how "fresh" it was from the replicator slot.

This is why the replicator could not reproduce Picard's heart, or Neelix's lungs. Because what the replicator produces isn't actually biological tissue. If you request (non-human) fried heart for dinner, it wouldn't exactly taste and smell like heart ... because it isn't one.

 

[Finn]

The Klingon head ridges- Kahlest is shown in an TOS episode as having a smooth head--he lived long before the Enterprise's explanation.

But decades later, a clone of Kahlest shows him with a ridged head, that means Enterprise's explanation is a fail-an epic fail.

The Kahless we saw in TOS was how Kirk pictured him. For all we know, Kirk never saw an image of the real Kahless.

 

[Paradon]

I think the TNG and DS9 verson of Kahless is different. He's more honorable on TNG and DS9.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Riker preparing omelets in Time Squared said this:

No, you're right, Data.
The ship's computer would be more efficient,
but it wouldn't allow for the subtlety needed for great cooking.
It would give you all of the ingredients in pre-determined measurements,
but wouldn't allow for flair or individuality.
And Data, as we both know,
flair is what marks the difference between artistry and mere competence.

From this, I take away that what comes out of the replicator is ... an adequate substitute.

What comes out of a replicator, by definition, is artificial. It is a facsimile of real food. If you take some muscle tissue from a freshly killed animal, and apply an electrical current, the muscle will jerk, it will contract. I don't believe a replicated strip of steak tartar would do the same, no matter how "fresh" it was from the replicator slot.

This is why the replicator could not reproduce Picard's heart, or Neelix's lungs. Because what the replicator produces isn't actually biological tissue. If you request (non-human) fried heart for dinner, it wouldn't exactly taste and smell like heart ... because it isn't one.

Here's the thing though; the idea is that replicators arrange things at the molecular level and not the full subatomic level.

Therefor replicated food lacks that natural taste and quality that organic food has.

But...if you arrange something at the molecular level aren't you by default including things at the subatomic level anyway?

If you have molecular egg particles, then you must have atomic egg particles and then subatomic particles.

And don't they replicate blood? If replicated anything is artificial, wouldn't it be dangerous to replicate blood--it would lack certain qualities that real blood would have.

Which suggests you have the full egg. (Forgive me, I'm no scientist.)

The Kahless explanation;

I'm finally going to buy that-- the story assumed that it was what Kahless really looked like, but then again Kirk may have never really have seen him anyway.

Wer'e still back the ridges thing because Enterprise's is too convoluted. What about a clever, simple explanation that can somehow explain why at one point they had them, and then another point they didn't?

Here's another one, slightly off topic.. can anyone explain why Captain Janeway is a bad captain?

Some posters really think she was a bad captain. I just want to know how...

 

[T'Girl]

what the replicator produces isn't actually biological tissue

If you have molecular egg particles, then you must have atomic egg particles and then subatomic particles.

No, and it doesn't need to in order to fulfill it function. The replicator (I think) isn't even trying to create a actual chicken embryo. It's producing a soft substance like cooked egg whites, and a thick fluid like egg yolks, as long as it was acceptable to the crew it would be fine. The machine's primary goal would be nutrition.

Having the replicator aboard the Enterprise Dee was a matter of necessity, a thousand people, eating a thousand tonnes of food a year, on a multiple year mission. Without it, the ship has to resupply periodically at a starbase, or in the case of Voyager stop what they're doing and forage for food.

And don't they replicate blood? If replicated anything is artificial, wouldn't it be dangerous to replicate blood--it would lack certain qualities that real blood would have.

Well, we have artificial blood now. Which is lacking in some ways, but it will carry oxygen.

Here's another one, slightly off topic.. can anyone explain why Captain Janeway is a bad captain?

I think that Janeway, over the course of the show, began to experience psychological problems. These problems stem from the command pressures of being isolated in the delta quad and her choice (lack of choice) to destroy the caretakers array.