The "You Explain It, Thread" Explain it!

[Deks]

Money is pretty simple to explain...

Everything that cannot be replicated such as property, transport, energy sources and latinum exchange is done with credits. Since people don't have to spend credits on anything needed to survive or live a comfortable existence, it eliminates the need for material wealth and acquisition. Those in organisations such as Starfleet probably have an enormous accumulation of credits because they have very little need to purchase anything whilst in service and when returning home from deep space assignments, they have the credits to purchase property in idyllic locations, such as Kirk's San Francisco apartment (although 23rd and 24th century Earth locations may all be idyllic in Star Trek!)

People like Kassidy Yates are attracted to the lifestyle of running a cargo ship. As independent contractors they have to provide the energy sources needed to power their ship and provide their staff with wages - especially the non-Federation citizens. Those such as Yates want to travel space but have no interest in joining Starfleet or similar organisations, so they do it themselves and are thus required to work more frequently with currency than they would within the Federation.

Except that money was eliminated (went the way of the dinosaurs) in the late 22nd century (well before the invention of replicators) when the New World economy took place.
Voyager clearly established this.

Besides, you don't need replicators or transporters to eliminate money.

 

[Kemaiku]

It's science FICTION, I ain't gotta explain shit.

 

[The Wormhole]

Ooh, or why would Data have a maid in the future setting of All Good Things? Why would servants exist at all?

For fun?

 

[Deks]

Ooh, or why would Data have a maid in the future setting of All Good Things? Why would servants exist at all?

For fun?

Indeed.
Or, (and this one is most likely to tick off some people) being a maid is something that she wanted to do as a profession.
Third alternative is that she could have been a hologram.

 

[captcalhoun]

it was an old-fashioned house, probably no robovacs, so some poor schmuk's gotta clean up.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

it was an old-fashioned house, probably no robovacs, so some poor schmuk's gotta clean up.

It seems like there was always some poor schmuck vacuuming in the background in Star Trek movies.

 

[Deks]

it was an old-fashioned house, probably no robovacs, so some poor schmuk's gotta clean up.

An 'old-fashioned house' that also came with extensively integrated holographic technology.

 

[Redfern]

Data probably considered robo-vacs to be the victims of forced servitude.

Sincerely,

Bill

 

[Nightdiamond]

Why are there farms if replicators are prevalent? Or rather, why are farms listed as essential?

Ooh, or why would Data have a maid in the future setting of All Good Things? Why would servants exist at all?

Bingo, again. Why have farms? You've got replicators that make the same things in under a minute.

Ooh, or why would Data have a maid in the future setting of All Good Things? Why would servants exist at all?

For fun?

Indeed.
Or, (and this one is most likely to tick off some people) being a maid is something that she wanted to do as a profession.
Third alternative is that she could have been a hologram.

Pretty good explanation, and will hold up, unless someone shows she's not a hologram.

Then it's back to why would anyone want to spend their time cleaning up after others when they don't need money?


Here's another one; Where does Odo's mass goes when he turns into something small like a mouse? It has to go somewhere?

And where does his mind go when he turns into something like a chair?

Wouldn't he lose his conscious the minute he became a chair?

So far, no good explanation for the ridges yet. The money thing still unresolved..

 

[Paradon]

IT seems that authentic food and material things seems of better quality and values than the replicated version. At least it seems that way on DS9.

It looks as if Sisko was getting ready to resign from SF after his wife was killed. I don't think they pay him enough that it's worth all the emotional pain and suffering that comes with the job. That's a great way to repell smart, intelligent, resourceful people. [chuckle]

 

[Paradon]

Here's another one; Where does Odo's mass goes when he turns into something small like a mouse? It has to go somewhere?

And where does his mind go when he turns into something like a chair?

Wouldn't he lose his conscious the minute he became a chair?

I read somewhere that mass is really made up of mostly empty space; so I guess when he shrunk down to the size of a mouse he really just get rid of those spaces. [shrug]

I'm sure his conscious is still there, but they haven't figure out what consciousness really is in the 24th century. Doctor Bashir said the brain is still a mistery organ.

 

[Nightdiamond]

IT seems that authentic food and material things seems of better quality and values than the replicated version. At least it seems that way on DS9.

It looks as if Sisko was getting ready to resign from SF after his wife was killed. I don't think they pay him enough that it's worth all the emotional pain and suffering that comes with the job. That's a great way to repell smart, intelligent, resourceful people. [chuckle]

I don't buy the authentic food vs replicated food argument anymore-- You got farmers working so hard to grow a crop when a simple replicator can recreate them perfectly.

The Bajorans struggling to grow crops when they have industrial replicators make little sense except to have vegetation on their planet.

Here's another one; Where does Odo's mass goes when he turns into something small like a mouse? It has to go somewhere?

And where does his mind go when he turns into something like a chair?

Wouldn't he lose his conscious the minute he became a chair?

I read somewhere that mass is really made up of mostly empty space; so I guess when he shrunk down to the size of a mouse he really just get rid of those spaces. [shrug]

I'm sure his conscious is still there, but they haven't figure out what consciousness really is in the 24th century. Doctor Bashir said the brain is still a mistery organ.

But wouldn't that cause a nuclear explosion the minute he tried that?

 

[T'Girl]

You've got replicators that can make food, clothing, gifts- it makes no sense.

Sure it does, consider this. Their replicators are like the refrigerator in your house. You bought the fridge, buy power to operate it, put supplies into it and take supplies out. The only difference (well more then one) is that the replicator changes what you put into it, into something different that you take out.

On Earth, you pay credits (or whatever) to obtain a replicator and to put into it what it needs to "run." Oh but you don't pay in physical currency.

Why are there farms if replicators are prevalent? Or rather, why are farms listed as essential?

There are suggestions in some episodes that what comes out of a replicator doesn't taste quite right, except for chocolate.

Grandpa Sisko serves real shellfish in his restaurant.

In the 24th century crops are still grown, animals raised, fish gathered. Natural food (imho) probably constitutes the majority of food consumed on planets. I can see the 24th century knowledge and technology producing more food with less resources, can also see the oceans being husbanded to extract far more food than nature provides today.

If 24th century humans no longer use or need money, then how come they're constantly shown doing things--to earn money, including commit crime??

The no money, work to better ourselves thing could easily be a philosophy embraced by a relative few Humans (and no other species) in the Federation. The only two clear cut cases of anyone advocating this mind set are Jean-Luc Picard and Jake Sisko.

And in Jake Sisko's case, embracing the philosophy is a new move for him. In the first season episode Progress, Jake and Nog form a partnership that eventually nets them five bars of Gold-pressed latinum.

When Picard said: "The acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives yip yip yip," I believe Picard was making a personal statement, reflecting Picard's own philosophical belief system. This reveals that Picard is a idealist when it comes to Humanity. Acquiring wealth isn't important to Picard, Picard has power, position and respect, these are Picard's wealth.

There however is no indication that "everyone" on Earth is of like mind, they're likely have a widely diverse conglomerate of financial theories

There's no evidence that any of the crew from TOS believe in the philosophy of no money, and quite a bit of evidence that they didn't.

Beverly Crusher, right from the first episode, doesn't ("charge it to my account"). The chips on the officer's weekly poker game appear to hold value.

In the Earth system of the 24th century, there's someone to buy Quark's old shuttle, and someone to sell him passage back to DS9.

Kumbaya.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Fortunately, as pointed out by http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/New_World_Economy, DS9: In the Cards leaves little room for doubt.

According to http://www.chakoteya.net/DS9/523.htm:

JAKE: Come on, Nog.
NOG: No.
JAKE: Why not?
NOG: It's my money, Jake. If you want to bid at the auction, use your own money.
JAKE: I'm human, I don't have any money.
NOG: It's not my fault that your species decided to abandon currency-based economics in favour of some philosophy of self-enhancement.
JAKE: Hey, watch it. There's nothing wrong with our philosophy. We work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity.
NOG: What does that mean exactly?
JAKE: It means. It means we don't need money.
NOG: Well if you don't need money, then you certainly don't need mine.
JAKE: How much latinum do you have? How much?
NOG: Five bars.
JAKE: Five bars!
NOG: Look, it's taken me a lifetime to save up that much money, and I'm not going to just throw it away for some baseball card.
JAKE: Not even for my father, the man who made it possible for you to enter Starfleet Academy.
NOG: Oh no, that's not fair.
JAKE: The man who believed in you when no one else would.
NOG: Oh, this is so low.
JAKE: I can't believe you would rather keep your filthy money locked away in a box under a bed than use it to give him endless moments of happiness.
NOG: Argh! All right, all right. I'll do it.
JAKE: That's very generous, Nog. I'm proud of you. Now let's get that money.
NOG: Humans.

There isn't much flexibility on how to read that scene, unless Jake is lying or Nog is mistaken.

 

[Paradon]

Here's another one; Where does Odo's mass goes when he turns into something small like a mouse? It has to go somewhere?

And where does his mind go when he turns into something like a chair?

Wouldn't he lose his conscious the minute he became a chair?

I read somewhere that mass is really made up of mostly empty space; so I guess when he shrunk down to the size of a mouse he really just get rid of those spaces. [shrug]

I'm sure his conscious is still there, but they haven't figure out what consciousness really is in the 24th century. Doctor Bashir said the brain is still a mistery organ.

But wouldn't that cause a nuclear explosion the minute he tried that?

He might in in a state of flux...

And what we think of as space is really made up of dark matters... Matters is really mostly empty space.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Fortunately, as pointed out by http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/New_World_Economy, DS9: In the Cards leaves little room for doubt.

One thing that can be gleaned from the DS9: In the Cards scene I quoted above, in conjunction with VOY: Dark Frontier as referred to in the Memory Alpha article, is that evidently Earth is the only planet in the Federation to go full pinko and do away with money. This evidently allows Federation credits to exist without inconsistency.

Here's something else I wrote recently, in the "When Treknology makes absolutely no sense" thread in Trek Tech:

One observation that occurred to me while I was reading through the latest "how is there no money" thread, but frankly didn't really feel like posting about at the time, is that the humans in Star Trek are descendants of the survivors of the Eugenics Wars, World War III, and who knows what else. Therefore, instinctively appropriate behavior that these people tend to exhibit with respect to the treatment of common property could plausibly be different from the behavior that we might tend to exhibit.

Case in point is that they might accept the dangers of recklessly tinkering with time travel, without question, so that they just wouldn't choose to do it except under only the most controlled conditions. Doing it recklessly to them might be simply unthinkable, just as refusing to share common property might also be unthinkable.

Greater self-restraint and a greater sense of social responsibility than we have may have been bred into them. Or looking at it another way, perhaps the more self-indulgent and antisocial elements were bred out of the human race.

Food for thought, eh?

 

[Paradon]

Is credit more efficient than money? I don't know why they even get rid of it. [chuckle]

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Well, I think that DS9 scene is really hilarious. It manages to poke fun at the whole idea, without denying it, in pretty much the same tone as Worf says that Klingons don't discuss their ridges.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Is credit more efficient than money? I don't know why they even get rid of it. [chuckle]

I'm sticking by my view: In the Federation, credits ARE money. That's simply the word they use to describe their currency. It might not be 'money' in the sense of having coins and bills to carry around - it's all electronic - but it's still a medium of exchange.

 

[Nightdiamond]

But I don't even think the average human who "works" has credits. Look at Jake-- he was working for the Federation News Service and even sold a book -and didn't get paid for it.

Starfleet or the Federation isn't paying him anything!

Like Corporal Captain pointed out, humans simply don't have any money. If Jake had at least some credits, that would count for something, since credits were especially for buying things off world. But he didn't have even that.

Sure it does, consider this. Their replicators are like the refrigerator in your house. You bought the fridge, buy power to operate it, put supplies into it and take supplies out. The only difference (well more then one) is that the replicator changes what you put into it, into something different that you take out.

On Earth, you pay credits (or whatever) to obtain a replicator and to put into it what it needs to "run." Oh but you don't pay in physical currency

This explanation almost works, and even makes sense. Except for the main problem....it seems that humans don't get paid for their work--not even credits.

Everything is apparently free, and needs are provided by replicator apparently, which is why there is no poverty.

So basically it's all pretend? Humans work and pretend to get paid even though they don't?