The Federation not having any money

[Deks]

Its one thing to discuss the episodes and their impact, feasibility, and concreteness. It's another to ignore what was said and seen on screen.

I could say that its more feasible that replicators really had short order cooks on the other side of the wall who pushed food through them, but that's not what we see on screen. What we see is a fantastic futuristic device that creates food out of thin air. That's the facts, and that's not debatable.

Agreed. Plus, we are repeatedly told (on-screen) that replicators convert energy into matter. Not once have we ever heard of a 'peep' that they use raw matter of any kind in the process. It's always 'energy to matter' or in case of transporters 'matter to energy and back again' (replicators do the latter as well, but only when recycling) - they were VERY specific about these.

Oh... one more thing... you mentioned something about the US being in debt due to overspending, etc., and how the recession is mostly due to all of this. While I agree with this to a degree, I would have to say it's possible there were other factors in play that we as a general populace were simply not aware of which could have contributed to the situation.
And, if countries weren't in debts, there would be no need for money.

We are told the Federation doesn't use money. Its more fun to figure out ways of still bartering with other civilizations, putting a bid on a wormhole, and paying for food at Quarks while still meeting those requirements than to just dismiss the whole practice entirely.

Again I agree.
I think that one of the possibilities as to why a lot of people here claim outright that this is not the case, might be because they are seeing the show in a limited fashion (plus mixing and mashing a few examples that 'seemingly' contradict the statement - although in practically all of those cases, it was only when SF officers dealt with cultures that used currency based economy in the first place).
Then of course due to a combination of their own inability to envision a different kind of a system (because it clashes with what they were taught/indoctrinated with), or for some other factor causes their perceptions/conclusions of the show to disregard what was said.

A lot of people seem to take out things that don't suit them out of canon (or disregard it directly) in order to sustain their own 'version' of how things work.

Granted, I might be held accountable for doing the same thing, however I do not think so (necessarily) since I was trying to present possibilities that explain how things could have worked the way they did and still stick to the premise that the Federation doesn't use money as was repeatedly stated.
Majority of cases where so called 'currency' was used were inconclusive at best where details were left out, or was predominantly used with races that actually use money (but granted, SF majority of the time was bartering either way and not used 'money' - latinum is another thing, but that is easily explainable for the circumstances where it was used - DS9 and Bajor were NOT Federation property, nor were they stated to have a system operating in a manner the Federation decided - plus SF has it's own policy - comply with local law).
Plus there was a lot of disagreement between writers over the course of the show.
I'm merely trying to explain it all to fit within the well established premise that money doesn't exist in the Federation.
Bolians and Risans were never explicitly stated to be members of UFP.
We have no solid proof to say they were, and non Federation members had individuals serving in SF or other areas of the Federation. Nog, Neelix and Worf come to mind for one thing.
The Bolian ambassador could have been just another person representing the Federation as 'The Federation ambassador' due to his/hers excellent diplomatic skills (doesn't mean Bolians were part of the UFP).
Risans may have utilized Federation technology to maintain a 'virtual paradise' on their planet and turned it into a resort, but, again, it doesn't mean Risans were part of UFP - it was never stated to be the case on-screen.

Most of the expressions that used 'pay', 'currency' or whatnot terms that are associated with money and capitalist based economy I perceived to be used in a joking manner (though if I want to leave an open mind, then yes, I reserve there's a possibility they could have been meant in a context that money existed - however, given the situations and the tone of voice used in them suggested a joking tone - at least to me).
Plus, these people are technologically over 350 years ahead of us ... and they are supposed to THINK differently (well, at least, differently than 'most' of the population on the planet today).
And people are telling me that those 2 aspects (not to mention getting rid of poverty, disease, wars, etc. on Earth only 50 years after FC with the Vulcans) aren't enough of a difference for Humanity to create economy which isn't based on currency or money?

 

[T'Girl]

we have a wide diverse variety of political, social, cultural, and economic systems, and we're just one planet.

I think its been pretty firmly established that the Federation only accepts members that have a unified global government. We may have multiple political systems TODAY, but in order to join the future Federation its clear that we are ultimately going to have a World Government.

Two points.

First, I (apparently badly) was forming a analogy of our present day Earth as the future Federation. Where there are a wide mixture "systems" in various nations on Earth, so too would there be a similar diverse mix among the hundreds of members of the Federation. There wouldn't be this bland interstellar mono-system.

Second, given that Earth didn't so much "join" the Federation as was one of the small number of parties that formed it, if the Earth at the time had non-unified multiple governments on the world, this most likely would not have excluded Earth from the very organization it was in the process of forming. The events of the series Enterprise seemed to make clear that not only was Earth one of the founders, but was in fact the primary driving force that brought the Federation into existence.

If one (or more) of Earth's nations had chosen not to join the World government, this could have establish a early precedent that a world could join the Federation without there being a united planetary state.

Risans may have utilized Federation technology to maintain a 'virtual paradise' on their planet and turned it into a resort

However, the Risens already had the technology to stop their "earth"-quakes, and turn their planet into a resort paradise prior to the creation of the Federation, the Risen equipment was "the most elaborate weather control system in the Federation," because Risa was "in the Federation."

They didn't get the equipment from the Federation, they brought it with them when they joined.

 

[BrownShatner]

Roddenbury was probably just envisioning a very idealized version of the Soviet Union's economy.

They had money - rubles, but they were only used for personal spending (ala "credits") and were not convertible to any real value. Industrial orders were not filled in rubles, the goods were simply ordered. Bigwigs weren't paid in millions of rubles, they received homes and cars and other luxuries instead. Commodities and foreign currency ("latinum") were used for foreign trade. Banks were operated for the same purpose.

There are other analogs in Star Trek, such as the apparent "military first" ideology where important scientists and engineers all seem to be directly associated with Starfleet. After a bazillion episodes, we barely have any idea what 'civilian' life is like on Earth - whatever was happening was not that important.

Roddenbury was born in 1921 - he grew up in the World War II era when the Soviets were the "good guys" and glorified by the left. Even after this utopian view was reputed by the gulags and starvation and secret police, it's not hard to imagine that someone like Roddenbury might translate these ideals into a futuristic space setting. Maybe, although he couldn't say it, he was envisioning that the Soviets "won" World War III and ultimate unified humanity through their ideology and economic system.

 

[Mayack419]

As Picard said in First Contact..."the acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force of economics. We try to better ourselves"...Resources are resources. Money is just a representation of resources...AKA an illusion. Ex: If Quark wants some rare metal in exchange for resources (whether it be food, information, or even self-sealing stem bolts), then a Starfleet officer would acquire said rare metal from Starfleet, simply by asking, whom of which acquired said rare metal by trading some other resource. Greed isn't a factor for the Federation. Resources are resources are resources.

 

[Deks]

... the Risen equipment was "the most elaborate weather control system in the Federation," because Risa was "in the Federation."

They didn't get the equipment from the Federation, they brought it with them when they joined.

This statement: 'it is maintained by the most elaborate weather control system in the Federation' can also be interpreted in a way that Worf was merely commenting on the technology from a Federation point of view, and nothing more.
He's a SF officer who was raised by Humans, so it's not that strange he would do it (regardless of him holding on to his Klingon heritage). Risa could (and quite possibly does from what we've see) have close ties with the Federation which probably extends to sharing technologies and resources... but that doesn't mean Risa was IN the UFP, and I would surmise that if Risans operate under a currency based economy, they couldn't allow SF officers to come to the planet for free.
They might get a 'discount' of some kind though, and SF itself would probably allocate it's people some currency for a situation to visit this resort if they choose to (or the Risan authority would do that on their arrival).

 

[Deks]

As Picard said in First Contact..."the acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force of economics. We try to better ourselves"...Resources are resources. Money is just a representation of resources...AKA an illusion. Ex: If Quark wants some rare metal in exchange for resources (whether it be food, information, or even self-sealing stem bolts), then a Starfleet officer would acquire said rare metal from Starfleet, simply by asking, whom of which acquired said rare metal by trading some other resource. Greed isn't a factor for the Federation. Resources are resources are resources.

Well said.
But there's a possibility it will fall of deaf ears for a lot of people.

 

[T'Girl]

Resources are resources. Money is just a representation of resources...AKA an illusion.

Not quite, money is a medium of exchange, a easily transported convenience.

Ex: If Quark wants some rare metal in exchange for resources (whether it be food, information, or even self-sealing stem bolts), then a Starfleet officer would acquire said rare metal from Starfleet ...

Problem there is the Starfleet officer would have to have foreknowledge of what Quark wanted. The obvious advantage of money is that foreknowledge is unnecessary. If I possessed a unusual metal, let say yttrium (used in superconductors) , and wanted a drink at a bar, if the bar owner wasn't in the market for that particular metal that day I go thirsty.

But with money, a convenient medium of exchange, I get my drink. An exchange of value. Yes, there is the stipulation that the bar accepts the money I possess, there are places in America that only take currency dollars, they don't want the hassle of converting whatever into dollars, exchange rates and all. But if I'm in France, I know ahead if time that I can get a drink with Euros coins. Foreknowledge.

Plus in my own case, my debit card will pay in whatever form of money that being charged.

Greed isn't a factor for the Federation.

Greed implies excess. The mere presents of money in a economic system isn't, in itself, greed.

Resources are resources are resources.

And even in a barter system, they all have a price.

 

[Mayack419]

@http://trekbbs.com/member.php?u=17077Dracula's_Castle
The purpose of the Quark example was to illustrate the Federation's standpoint on the situation, not Quark's. Quark is Ferengi, and not a part of the Federation. When I said greed isn't a factor in the Federation, I was pointing out that the Federation's means of acquiring certain things is not driven by the desire for profit, just exchanging resources, aka bartering. Of course resources in a barter system have a price. What one person considers a form of currency, such as gold pressed latnum, another person may consider it worthless. Your arguments are invalid. That is all.

 

[T'Girl]

Quark is Ferengi, and not a part of the Federation.

But because Quark interacts with the Federation through it's citizen members, he is part of whatever financial/non-financial system the Federation possesses. He also part of the Bajorian financial system.

When I said greed isn't a factor in the Federation, I was pointing out that the Federation's means of acquiring certain things is not driven by the desire for profit ...

The Gift. Janeway: "Tuvok's meditation lamp. I was with him when he got it six years ago from a Vulcan Master, at double the price when he saw our Starfleet insignias."

A Vulcan (Vulcan is a part of the Federation), who is selling (not giving away), a item with value (to the customer), doubles the price (value is going to be exchanged), which will increase his profit (any way you look at it) when he realizes he dealing with certain customers.

The Vulcan Master's desire, in raising the price, was profit.

The purpose of the Quark example was to illustrate the Federation's standpoint on the situation, not Quark's.

Okay, first off, when Beverly wanted to purchase something, she didn't simply ask Starfleet, she charged to her own account. And when have we ever seen a Starfleet Officer "simply by asking" get something for a private purchase? I could imagine it happening if it were duty related, but not if they wanted a drink after work or to gamble.

As others have noted, barter as a means of commerce is cumbersome and time consuming. If you're on a ten minute break and stop into Quark's for a sandwich, how much time are you going to blow haggling for food? Just transfer value out of your account already. Ferengi GPL, Bajor litas, Federation credits, Klingon darseks, ultimately it all the same after exchange rates.

Quark wants some rare metal ... Starfleet officer would acquire said rare metal from Starfleet ... [Starfleet] acquired said rare metal by trading some other resource

Good God Mayack419, how long is that going to take?

Of course resources in a barter system have a price.

If so, then instead of me running around and getting your metal for you, I just buy your product with money in some form, and then you take the money and buy your own metal.

What one person considers a form of currency, such as gold pressed latnum, another person may consider it worthless.

Most people with the "pro-money Federation" position agree than Federation physical currency is all but gone. One of the attributes of latnum, over electronic funds transfer, is that it's possibly untraceable.

Your arguments are invalid.

Haven't convinced you just yet? I'll keep trying.

 

[Mayack419]

But because Quark interacts with the Federation through it's citizen members, he is part of whatever financial/non-financial system the Federation possesses. He also part of the Bajorian financial system.

Quark is a non-Federation member, on a Bajoran space station, which receives "oversight" from the Federation. He can demand whatever he wants in exchange for whatever the other person wants....aka bartering. Of course there will be certain resources that HE'LL prefer. The Starfleet personnel on that space station are familiar with what he wants, and are probably allotted certain amounts of "gold pressed latnum" so they can enjoy his bar. As I said, the Federation finds out what resource is wanted, and gives said resource in exchange. BARTERING

The Gift. Janeway: "Tuvok's meditation lamp. I was with him when he got it six years ago from a Vulcan Master, at double the price when he saw our Starfleet insignias."

Well hell, I guess they had to make an extra trip back to the replicator. And before you say they can't replicate that metal, that's false. It just requires more energy to do.

A Vulcan (Vulcan is a part of the Federation), who is selling (not giving away), a item with value (to the customer), doubles the price (value is going to be exchanged), which will increase his profit (any way you look at it) when he realizes he dealing with certain customers.

A price that was paid with currency which the Federation bartered to receive in the first place no doubt.

Your arguments are still invalid.

 

[Arpy]

The Vulcan master could have been a non-Federation citizen or operating outside the moneyless Federation economy. Or he could have been a dick like this guy.

 

[T'Girl]

The Vulcan master could have been a non-Federation citizen ...

Where do you get "non-federation" from? All Vulcans that we've encountered have been from inside the federation, a part of the standard definition of a Vulcan in Star Trek is federation citizen. So unless something is specifically mentioned (and nothing was) the Vulcan Master in question is presumptive federation.

Kor (EOM) ... Take this man. Vulcans are members of the Federation. He may be a spy.

or operating outside the moneyless Federation economy.

What moneyless federation economy? Or for that matter, what moneyless Vulcan economy? On the only two occasions that the no money philosophy is directly mentioned, it's immediately follow with and tied to the word humanity. Not federation or Vulcan On both occasions, the person using the word "we" is a Human.

Picard (FC) ...money doesn't exist in the twenty-fourth century ...we work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity.

Jake (ITC) ... I don't have any money ... we work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity.

Which is actually an interesting statement coming from Jake, seeing as previously in the episode Progress, Nog and Jake engaged in a series of business exchanges that results with two of them possessing five bars of latinum.

doubles the price

A price that was paid with currency which the Federation bartered to receive in the first place no doubt.

Or more likely, just like Beverly Crusher, Tuvok paid for the lamp out of his account.

You see, I have a example of a previous episode where a Starfleet officer, made a personal purchase, and charging the purchase to their account. That called a reference. It's also called canon.

Now it's your turn to provide a example of a Starfleet officer, making a personal purchase, and having Starfleet "allocate" the purchase price to them.

Your arguments are still invalid.

Harry Mudd: "... 'lithium crystals, my dear, are worth three hundred times their weight in diamonds, thousands of times their weight in gold."

 

[Arpy]

The Vulcan master could have been a non-Federation citizen ...

Where do you get "non-federation" from? All Vulcans that we've encountered have been from inside the federation, a part of the standard definition of a Vulcan in Star Trek is federation citizen. So unless something is specifically mentioned (and nothing was) the Vulcan Master in question is presumptive federation.

Nonsense. People change citizenship all the time. And there are lots of humans (whole planets) who aren't Federation citizens (Ezri's family too) so why not Vulcans?

Kor (EOM) ... Take this man. Vulcans are members of the Federation. He may be a spy.

Right. Like when the U.S. interred Americans during the Second World War who had nothing to do with the Empire of Japan just for being the same race.

or operating outside the moneyless Federation economy.

What moneyless federation economy? Or for that matter, what moneyless Vulcan economy? On the only two occasions that the no money philosophy is directly mentioned, it's immediately follow with and tied to the word humanity. Not federation or Vulcan On both occasions, the person using the word "we" is a Human.

Picard (FC) ...money doesn't exist in the twenty-fourth century ...we work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity.

Jake (ITC) ... I don't have any money ... we work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity.

Oh, so it's only humans who get to be so evolved. It's a TV show – the writers used shorthand. Same as when aliens were referred to as having humanity, or being men or women.

 

[T'Girl]

Nonsense. People change citizenship all the time. And there are lots of humans (whole planets) who aren't Federation citizens (Ezri's family too) so why not Vulcans?

During TOS, many aliens looked like Humans. How did we know they weren't? Because we were told in the context of the story that they weren't.

We know that New Sydney isn't part of the federation because it's directly stated in an episode, and that the Tigan family comes from there for the same reason. All other Trill have been from Trill, which is a federation member.

The bulk of the Klingons we see are from the Klingon Empire, people like Worf and Torres are different because the stories made that clear, it's part of the dialog. But unless that difference is made evident, all Klingons in a given story are from the Empire, it's the default position for them.

Nothing in the episode The Gift indicates in any way that the unnamed Vulcan Master is from outside the federation. Or that Tuvok and Janeway were outside the federation at the time the purchase was made. But the story did specify that the Master was Vulcan. Planet Vulcan is a federation member, the bulk of Vulcan civilian population are inside the federation.

When you said the the Vulcan Master is from outside the federation, you're assuming a fact not in evidence, his being from outside just wasn't part of the episode. It wasn't implied in any way.

 

[Mayack419]

I notice that I am being quoted for saying things which I did not say....hmmmm...that means your arguments are invalid X 2....jus sayin.

 

[Paradon]

Someone said they have replicators in the 24th century, so they don't need money anymore... But it takes huge amount of energy to convert energy into even a small amount of matter. And where does that energy come from?

Like I said... Nothing is for free in the real world. The concept of something for nothing doesn't make any sense. [chuckle]

 

[tighr]

It takes huge amount of energy to convert energy into even a small amount of matter. And where does that energy come from?

It's made evident that the cost of producing energy in the future is significantly cheaper. Matter/Antimatter reaction is extremely efficient.

 

[Arpy]

Nonsense. People change citizenship all the time. And there are lots of humans (whole planets) who aren't Federation citizens (Ezri's family too) so why not Vulcans?

During TOS, many aliens looked like Humans. How did we know they weren't? Because we were told in the context of the story that they weren't.

We know that New Sydney isn't part of the federation because it's directly stated in an episode, and that the Tigan family comes from there for the same reason. All other Trill have been from Trill, which is a federation member.

Nuh-uh. They don't need to clarify everything just so. Do you vocally reiterate every detail about everyone in every retelling of every anecdote so every third party knows everything you do? They wanted to tell a cute story about a shrewd old character. They probably considered your point but let it pass with mine.

On this subject, they purposely leave things contradictory so we fanboys can argue, and they can have their cake and eat it too.

And come to think of it, they made a point of having New Sydney and the Tigans not being in the Federation precisely because the story they were trying to tell (about people's worth being tied to their economic success) was so un-Federation-like.

 

[Paradon]

don't they have to mine the dilithium crystals for it? And assuming these things are rare...otherwise we would already have this in our reality, right?

 

[tighr]

don't they have to mine the dilithium crystals for it? And assuming these things are rare...otherwise we would already have this in our reality, right?

No, since we haven't developed the technology.

Silicon and lithium are elements we mine for. Wouldn't Leonardo Da Vinci have been able to mine for them and invent computers 500 years ago?