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DS9 Novels?

DrBashir said:
New Zeland Penal Colony or dead. Anything else is a travisty of justice.
So your ideal, moral Federation includes captial punishment?:vulcan:

Nowhere did I mention capital punishment. In story terms I would want Bashir to die in simply so he piad for his crimes. If he`s not in prison he should not be out wandering around free. Give his life saving someone else or some such. Whatever.
 
You know, sometimes I think DrBashir makes it a point to ignore the points others bring up, that refute what he says in detail. Or at least, twist them into straw men.

Sir...I directly addressed the "war crime/war atrocity" thing in my Brilliantly Impassioned Monologue, last page. Read it, address it--quote it, and address what I say. Otherwise, your endless repetitions of "War crimes! War crimes!" comes across as denial.

And of course, the "bombing a hospital" thing is a straw man. No one proposes that--no one would. Even pushing morality aside--doing so would create an incident.

Shooting an unconscious guard so that no one will be informed of your activities prevents an incident.

Ugly? Absolutely. Disturbing? Most definitely. Stretching the boundaries of conscience? Dang right.

Necessary? You bet it was.


Again--look at Kira, and what she had had to do to fight the Occupation. By your arguments, she should be sent to a penal colony--or to death row.

Ah Rush, here's what you said.

As far as I'm concerned, there is no such thing as "war atrocities". War itself is the atrocity. It's an ugly, hideous thing--but when you have to fight it, you have to do what is necessary to win, and to win it as quickly as possible, so as to end said atrocity as quickly as possible.
So, there is no such thing as a war atrocity. If the point is to end a war as quickly as possible then why wouldn't you bomb hospitals? They're full of solders. The doctors are working to get them back into fighting shape so they can continue the war. Won't the war be shortened if the wounded are not allowed to heal? Denying medical treatment to the other sides solders would help depreciate their fighting force. Also, killing the doctors would make things even better for your side. You're the one that indirectly brought up bombing hospitals with your denial of the very concept of war crimes.

Those are questions you should ask Kira Nerys. Recall "The Darkness And The Light".

I would say...an enemy bombing a hospital is an incentive for you to keep fighting, out of angry motivation. Thus, bombing a hospital is not an effective means to shorten a war.

The guard? He was one man. As far as everyone else is concerned, he was killed while conscious.

If war is the atrocity then is everyone who takes part in it giulty of war crimes? Or are they innocent since such a thing doesn't exist?
They are innocent if their intent is to end the war as quickly as possible.

Terrorists want to prolong carnage, so as to...terrorize the opposition, and draw out the casualties.

If Julian had brutally raped a woman he found on the station, would it make it OK if she died when the station was destroyed later? After all, she's dead. What does it matter what happened before the station was destroyed?
:wtf: Excuse me? Would you mind explaining to me, exactly, how such actions would provide a tactical advantage in a war?

Once again, a straw man.

I guess the whole `Let`s not start an incident` went out the window when Ezri took the ship right to the station. If they really didn`t want to start an incident then Bashir & Sarina should have been considered expenible with orders to make sure their bodies couldn`t be identified if they couldn`t get out of Breen space on their own.
Excuse me...but were Bashir and Sarina to be captured...exactly what do you think the Breen would do?

I'll tell you: two things.

1. Glean them all they're worth for information.

2. Use them--or at least their bodies--as proof of Federation activities.

Expendable? Hardly. Ezri knew all too well that the two had to get out of there--dead or alive.

It would have been hilarious if the Breen had captured the Aventine, giving them a full working slipstream ship. Brilliant strategy that, sending the very thing the Breen are hoping to develop right into their lap.
Assuming, of course, the Aventine does not have an auto-destruct sequence. Were all other options to be exhausted...she would probably destroy the ship--and with it, the station, and all evidence of what had happened there.
 
Considering how reliable the self destruct systems on Federation starships is I'd think it would be more likely that the ship would be captured.

At least the Breen, when they destroyed the station at Utopia Planitia, didn't have one of their warships show itself at the planet. You think that word won't eventually leak out about Aventine destroying the Breen base? There was no visual evidence of the Breen destroying the Starfleet station. Imagine the PR boost of showing, Live on BNN (Breen News Network) a starfleet ship destroying a Breen shipyard and killing thousands. What would the Federation say to that? "Well, you started it!" Hardly.

If all your hospitals are being bombed, eventually you're going to find yoursself operrating full time in tents, caves, etc. Your mortality rate will climb and you'll be using untrained conscripts simply to fill your ranks. Maybe add a biological weapon or two to terrify the civilian population and you're well on your way to winning the war if only thourgh attrition.
 
Self destruct systems, core ejection systems, any sort of major compopnent fails more often that it succeds.

Please list some examples.

Self destruct worked perfectly fine in ST III, and was a viable option in "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield" and TMP. I'm sure there are plenty of TNG examples. We've also seen several successful warp core ejections, IIRC.
 
You seriosly cannot remember all the times that Geordi said that the "such and such system was offline"? It's traditional that the system intended to say the ship will fail when it's most needed. If it happens once, it's dramtic. Each time it fails to fuction as it should it makes it more and more rediculous.
 
You think that word won't eventually leak out about Aventine destroying the Breen base? There was no visual evidence of the Breen destroying the Starfleet station. Imagine the PR boost of showing, Live on BNN (Breen News Network) a starfleet ship destroying a Breen shipyard and killing thousands. What would the Federation say to that? "Well, you started it!" Hardly.

As I recall...the book ended with the threat of exactly that occurring. And as I recall...President Bacco dispelled it, with a clever turn around....

If all your hospitals are being bombed, eventually you're going to find yoursself operrating full time in tents, caves, etc. Your mortality rate will climb and you'll be using untrained conscripts simply to fill your ranks. Maybe add a biological weapon or two to terrify the civilian population and you're well on your way to winning the war if only thourgh attrition.

Operative word: all. Now, be honest: what are the chances of the Federation being able to blow up enough Breen hospitals so that it'd gain a tactical advantage?

I'm personally putting it at: "Nil".
 
Hospitals are usually fairly large buildings and with Trek's aliens doing everything pretty much the same as humans it should be pretty easy to locate them. Make it a priority for anyone who visits their planets or passes within scanner range.

They had better get their diplomats and other contacts to get to work at locating those medical facilities. While you're at it, target the schools as well so that there won't be another generation to wage war against you.

Scorched earth policy would also work wonders. I wonder how long it takes to do a full General Order 24?
 
O-kaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay...there are some big premises your post rests on:

Hospitals are usually fairly large buildings and with Trek's aliens doing everything pretty much the same as humans it should be pretty easy to locate them. Make it a priority for anyone who visits their planets or passes within scanner range.

Uh-huh. So, you think the Breen are going to let people visit their planets?

Considering what we know of the Breen...I seriously doubt it.

They had better get their diplomats and other contacts to get to work at locating those medical facilities. While you're at it, target the schools as well so that there won't be another generation to wage war against you.
Ah-hem. Doesn't sound very cost effective. I don't think you realize exactly how much manpower and resources would be needed for such a campaign.

Scorched earth policy would also work wonders. I wonder how long it takes to do a full General Order 24?
General Order 24, indeed. As if the Federation somehow had a massive super-fleet which was somehow able to overcome the full force of the Breen fleet, enough to do something so extensive.

Look...forget all these massive and messy campaigns against hospitals and schools, all right? It's not efficient at all--it assumes the Federation would somehow be able to get 100% knowledge of the locations of all hospitals and schools within Breen territory--which is inherently absurd.

It is also wasteful. There are a lot of alternative tactics (such as, say...black ops?) which do the job of winning a war much more efficiently, cleanly, and, dare I say it, quickly.
 
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You seriosly cannot remember all the times that Geordi said that the "such and such system was offline"? It's traditional that the system intended to say the ship will fail when it's most needed. If it happens once, it's dramtic. Each time it fails to fuction as it should it makes it more and more rediculous.

You're moving the goal posts. You said, "Considering how reliable the self destruct systems on Federation starships is I'd think it would be more likely that the ship would be captured", and I'm quite sure we haven't seen the self-destruct option fail to function very often, if at all.
 
You seriosly cannot remember all the times that Geordi said that the "such and such system was offline"? It's traditional that the system intended to say the ship will fail when it's most needed. If it happens once, it's dramtic. Each time it fails to fuction as it should it makes it more and more rediculous.

You're moving the goal posts. You said, "Considering how reliable the self destruct systems on Federation starships is I'd think it would be more likely that the ship would be captured", and I'm quite sure we haven't seen the self-destruct option fail to function very often, if at all.

In fact, literally the only time in the entire run of Star Trek I can remember the self destruct failing is when the Kazon specifically targeted the system that controlled it in Voyager.
 
In fact, literally the only time in the entire run of Star Trek I can remember the self destruct failing is when the Kazon specifically targeted the system that controlled it in Voyager.

Using information supplied by Seska, a Cardassian spy masquerading as a Bajoran?
 
General Order 24, indeed. As if the Federation somehow had a massive super-fleet which was somehow able to overcome the full force of the Breen fleet, enough to do something so extensive.

Look...forget all these massive and messy campaigns against hospitals and schools, all right? It's not efficient at all--it assumes the Federation would somehow be able to get 100% knowledge of the locations of all hospitals and schools within Breen territory--which is inherently absurd.

It is also wasteful. There are a lot of alternative tactics (such as, say...black ops?) which do the job of winning a war much more efficiently, cleanly, and, dare I say it, quickly.

When has black ops alone won a war?

In A Taste of Armageddon Kirk orders General Order 24 when the Enterprise is the only ship at Eminiar VII. In the novel Reap the Whirlwind the Endeavor, the Lovell (an old and obsolete ship) and a Klingon D-7 destroy Gamma Tauri IV in short order. These are all 23rd centruy ships. With the Federation having slipstream and cloaking devices (they had the one on the Defiant for years as well as all the data from the phasing cloak research) they should be able to launch a surprise attack on the Breen and execute 24 in short order. No super fleet needed. After all, Earth hardly has any defenses, why should we assume the Breen are any different? The Breen themselves managed to do a fair bit of damage in their attack during the Dominion war, there's no reason to think thst Starfleet wouldn't be even more successful. We can also have the Klingons come along, the love a good fight.
 
In fact, literally the only time in the entire run of Star Trek I can remember the self destruct failing is when the Kazon specifically targeted the system that controlled it in Voyager.

There's also this, at 01.38.

Ah, right, did forget that one. So two instances out of...what, a dozen and change?

OK, you've got me and I don't feel up to pouing over years of Trek trivia to see what happened each time self destruct was called for.

However, even with self destruct as an option, the ship can still be captured. We saw Voyager captured a number of times, the various Enterprises all were captured at some point and let's not forget the Reliant. Sending a ship equipped with the very thing the Breen were trying to reverse engineer seems like a really silly thing to do. They wouldn't even need to keep the ship, just hold control long enough to get detailed scans of all the working components to supplement the plans that they had stolen.
 
General Order 24, indeed. As if the Federation somehow had a massive super-fleet which was somehow able to overcome the full force of the Breen fleet, enough to do something so extensive.

Look...forget all these massive and messy campaigns against hospitals and schools, all right? It's not efficient at all--it assumes the Federation would somehow be able to get 100% knowledge of the locations of all hospitals and schools within Breen territory--which is inherently absurd.

It is also wasteful. There are a lot of alternative tactics (such as, say...black ops?) which do the job of winning a war much more efficiently, cleanly, and, dare I say it, quickly.

When has black ops alone won a war?

Key word: alone. It is a wonderful tool--but it is not the be-all end all.

I strongly recommend Sun Tzu's The Art of War. The final chapter concerns effective use of spies.

He also says, "Those surrounded must be provided with a way out."

Why? Because a desperate enemy, with nothing left to lose, fights to the death--which just results in more headaches for you.

In A Taste of Armageddon Kirk orders General Order 24 when the Enterprise is the only ship at Eminiar VII. In the novel Reap the Whirlwind the Endeavor, the Lovell (an old and obsolete ship) and a Klingon D-7 destroy Gamma Tauri IV in short order. These are all 23rd centruy ships. With the Federation having slipstream and cloaking devices (they had the one on the Defiant for years as well as all the data from the phasing cloak research) they should be able to launch a surprise attack on the Breen and execute 24 in short order. No super fleet needed. After all, Earth hardly has any defenses, why should we assume the Breen are any different? The Breen themselves managed to do a fair bit of damage in their attack during the Dominion war, there's no reason to think thst Starfleet wouldn't be even more successful. We can also have the Klingons come along, the love a good fight.

You're forgetting four very important things:

1. The Breen's side lost the war.

2. The Breen have allies. They are part of the Typhon Pact.

3. The Breen are far more warlike than the Federation. It stands to reason that the homeworld would probably have more defenses than Earth would.

4. Even putting those two things aside--even if we broke them like the US broke the Japanese after Hiroshima and Nagasaki--that is a far cry from the crazy premise you were discussing, about going through all of Breen space and destroying all the hospitals and schools.

Sorry, sir. As Therin said...you keep moving the goalposts. And that does not help your case any--at all.
 
As far as I'm concerned, there is no such thing as "war atrocities". War itself is the atrocity. It's an ugly, hideous thing--but when you have to fight it, you have to do what is necessary to win, and to win it as quickly as possible, so as to end said atrocity as quickly as possible.

To call what he did a "war crime", and akin to "torture", is missing the point. Had the guard been allowed to live, and had he been aware of Bashir and Sarina, he would have given that information to his superiors--and the result would have been a diplomatic incident--which it was the entire point of the mission to avoid.

An ugly, hideous action? Perhaps. It's called war. And in war, ugly things have to be done, to avoid a greater "atrocity" in the future.

No such thing as 'war atrocities'?
Garbage.

Exactly this sort of thinking justified the bombing of cities during World War II, targeting civilians in order to undermine the economy of the enemy country.
All this in order to win the war - I mean 'end the war as soon as possible', of course.
And, of course, because, morally, there is no difference between killing civilians and soldiers, in battle, during war - you see, any action during war is immoral.

If you really think that defending your country by fighting - and killing - enemy soldiers and indiscriminately killing civilians are pretty much the same thing, at about the same moral level - then I have nothing more to discuss with you.
 
The best way to make sure that the Breen cannot hurt you is to make sure that there's no Breen. Ther Federation has cloaks and slipstream. Slip in, torch the planet while jamming subspace and slip out again. Leave no witnesses. They'd never suspect the Federation because they're the "good" guys.

How about a genetically altered disease that only attacks the Breen? Bashir and Sarina got onto the planet fairly easily. They'd be immune so the could release it, hide out and wait for pick-up after the planet is depopulated. No fleet of ships needed. Just one or two agents and the wind. It almost worked against the founders and they aren't even humanoid. Creating something tailored to the Breen should be much easier.
 
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