Plot hole city: Part 3!

[6079SmithW]

Attempts at plot holes: why didn't Vulcan's Debris travel back in time and create an alternate universe?

Because it was just debris, not a big ass ship with advanced weapons, and so the Kelvin (or whatever) just had to make a course correction to avoid the debris instead of getting annihilated.

Why after declaring weapons offline is the Kelvin still able to fire on the the enemy?

Because it was temporary and fixed by the next scene.

Why isn't Delta Vega pulled into the Vulcan Black Hole?

Because it is far away enough to not be affected. The Enterprise traveled away from imploding Vulcan and had still been traveling at impulse for a few minutes before coming to Delta Vega.

 

[Pauln6]

Attempts at plot holes: why didn't Vulcan's Debris travel back in time and create an alternate universe?

Why after declaring weapons offline is the Kelvin still able to fire on the the enemy?

Why isn't Delta Vega pulled into the Vulcan Black Hole?

1. It was and it did but a different black hole led led to a different alternate reality. A more appropriate question would be that if the red matter black hole simply channelled the subspace supernova to the alternate universe, when will the energy wave that preceded Nero and Spock arrive in this timeline and what damage will it do?

2. Weapons systems can be operated manually by crewmen onsite as a back up.

3. Black holes don't automatically pull everything in. Even if you ascribe to the notion that they were in the same system (I don't since otherwise Scotty would just have resupplied from Vulcan by transporter and he could not have failed to be unaware of Vulcan's destruction so I ascribe to Spock's mind meld being representational rather than literal) the planet's climate was very different to Vulcan so they could have been some distance away. Their orbit might be affected but there would be no reason to suppose that the planet would spiral to its destruction within a matter of minutes.

 

[JB2005]

Attempts at plot holes: why didn't Vulcan's Debris travel back in time and create an alternate universe?

Because it was just debris, not a big ass ship with advanced weapons, and so the Kelvin (or whatever) just had to make a course correction to avoid the debris instead of getting annihilated.

Why would the Debris come out in view of the Kelvin, my understanding is that the "lightnight storm in space" occurs in the same spacial co-ordinates as the place where the black-hole is in the "prime" universe...so it should have opened in Vulcan some time in the past and shot a planet full of debris in/at it...

Why after declaring weapons offline is the Kelvin still able to fire on the the enemy?

Because it was temporary and fixed by the next scene.

That wasn't made clear...and kinda makes a mockery of "heavy" damage...

Why isn't Delta Vega pulled into the Vulcan Black Hole?

Because it is far away enough to not be affected. The Enterprise traveled away from imploding Vulcan and had still been traveling at impulse for a few minutes before coming to Delta Vega.

The planet was close enough to Vulcan that Spock could see the destruction unaided...it was only a few hundred thousand miles from A BLACK HOLE...surely the gravity should have affected the planet?

 

[Set Harth]

Attempts at plot holes: why didn't Vulcan's Debris travel back in time and create an alternate universe?

How do you know it didn't?

Because it was just debris, not a big ass ship with advanced weapons, and so the Kelvin (or whatever) just had to make a course correction to avoid the debris instead of getting annihilated.

Different universe.

A more appropriate question would be that if the red matter black hole simply channelled the subspace supernova to the alternate universe, when will the energy wave that preceded Nero and Spock arrive in this timeline and what damage will it do?

Wouldn't it have already preceded them in the Abramsverse past?

my understanding is that the "lightnight storm in space" occurs in the same spacial co-ordinates as the place where the black-hole is in the "prime" universe...

That is incorrect. There are two "lightning storms": Nero in 2233, Spock in 2258. They are in different locations. The black hole in the Prime universe was in Romulan space. The 2233 lightning storm was at the edge of Federation space near the Klingon-Federation border. The 2258 lightning storm was in the Romulan Neutral Zone.

 

[JB2005]

Attempts at plot holes: why didn't Vulcan's Debris travel back in time and create an alternate universe?

Why after declaring weapons offline is the Kelvin still able to fire on the the enemy?

Why isn't Delta Vega pulled into the Vulcan Black Hole?

1. It was and it did but a different black hole led led to a different alternate reality. A more appropriate question would be that if the red matter black hole simply channelled the subspace supernova to the alternate universe, when will the energy wave that preceded Nero and Spock arrive in this timeline and what damage will it do?

2. Weapons systems can be operated manually by crewmen onsite as a back up.

But if the weapons physically won't work, then a gunner won't be able to do anything...

3. Black holes don't automatically pull everything in. Even if you ascribe to the notion that they were in the same system (I don't since otherwise Scotty would just have resupplied from Vulcan by transporter and he could not have failed to be unaware of Vulcan's destruction so I ascribe to Spock's mind meld being representational rather than literal) the planet's climate was very different to Vulcan so they could have been some distance away. Their orbit might be affected but there would be no reason to suppose that the planet would spiral to its destruction within a matter of minutes.

We are specifically told that Spock saw the planet destroyed unaided, up close and personal so it's not a case of ascribing to a notion, it's a fact!

And a black hole generates a massive gravity field, there should have been some effect on Delta Vega!

 

[6079SmithW]

Why would the Debris come out in view of the Kelvin, my understanding is that the "lightnight storm in space" occurs in the same spacial co-ordinates as the place where the black-hole is in the "prime" universe...so it should have opened in Vulcan some time in the past and shot a planet full of debris in/at it...

It does not occur in the same spacial coordinates. Nero and Spock went through the same black hole, at the same point in space, and exited at two completely different locations and times. Vulcan's debris can exit anywhere in space the past, but it doesn't have to time travel at all. It can simply be crushed at the heart of the black hole. We don't need to assume that it did any time traveling.

Also, the entire argument of where vulcan debris went after being imploded is completely irrelevant to the plot and has no bearing on it whatsoever. It's not a plot hole and should not even be considered as a candidate for one. It's an interesting "What if?" but has no bearing on the plot of the movie at all.

That wasn't made clear...and kinda makes a mockery of "heavy" damage...

As someone else posted, perhaps the automatic computer control of weapons was offline and they were being fired manually. This would explain why the kelvin's phasers seemingly hit no torpedos in those scenes but knock them out precisely when kirk sets the weapon system to automatic.

The planet was close enough to Vulcan that Spock could see the destruction unaided...it was only a few hundred thousand miles from A BLACK HOLE...surely the gravity should have affected the planet?

There is no change in gravity as mass can neither be created or destroyed (Conservation of Matter). The black hole now has the same mass as the planet it just consumed, so the gravity is still the same as it was when Vulcan occupied that orbit in the system.

 

[Pauln6]

But if the weapons physically won't work, then a gunner won't be able to do anything...

We are specifically told that Spock saw the planet destroyed unaided, up close and personal so it's not a case of ascribing to a notion, it's a fact!

And a black hole generates a massive gravity field, there should have been some effect on Delta Vega!

'Weapon systems' could just refer to the relays that lets you fire from the bridge at your captain's command. Ships have secondary command centres too as well as manual overrides in the weapon departments. If the weapons were firing in the next scene it would appear that it was only the systems linking weapons to the bridge that were down n'est ce pas?

I'm not so sure that we have to read the dialogue on the Delta Vega issue so literally precisely because it raises questions like the one you propose. Spock 'sensing' the destruction of Vulcan from a nearby system makes a hell of a lot more sense. He can 'watch' by sensing the observations of his dying kin.

If Scotty was THAT close to Vulcan he would have been fully aware of the distress calls that reached Earth and fully aware of the planet's destruction (albeit he seemed unaware of Kirk's distress beacon after it had been signalling the base for about a day) - Scotty was a buffoon but I don't believe he was meant to be THAT incompetent. Plus he spoke like he was desperate for a supply ship. If he was next door to Vulcan, with his fancy transporter he could have beamed supplies directly from the planet or at the least cranked up his shuttle to obtain what he needed assuming that he was unable to just radio them and request what he needed. He certainly would not have been so calm and flippant when billions of people had just died next door.

 

[JB2005]

...so if Delta Vega was in the Vulcan System, (which is Word of God by the way) then all that stuff about Scotty would be true...

Ok forget everything else I said, you're rationalising away a flaw in the film right there. They make this big deal out of the fact that Scotty's isolated, when he's a few hundred thousand miles away from fricking Vulcan!

 

[6079SmithW]

...so if Delta Vega was in the Vulcan System, (which is Word of God by the way) then all that stuff about Scotty would be true...

Ok forget everything else I said, you're rationalising away a flaw in the film right there. They make this big deal out of the fact that Scotty's isolated, when he's a few hundred thousand miles away from fricking Vulcan!

I don't know who this is addressed to but it is never explicitly stated where Delta Vega is in relation to Vulcan. I simply gave some arguments from the point of view where it is in-system. It can still be in-system and have Scotty be "isolated". It's a low key outpost that doesn't need constant attention, just perhaps monthly ration re-supply. Scotty wasn't literally starving and deprived, he was just complaining
about having to eat standard rations instead of restaurant meals.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Being isolated can mean ore ships call only once every twenty years. It has everything to do with the frequency of social contact, and in this context nothing necessarily to do with physical proximity.

 

[Mr Silver]

1) When Nero is about to destroy the Enterprise, but says "WAIT!" when he realizes it's the Enterprise, and that nuSpock might be on board, how does he know? Sure, he could have learned it from history books, but why does he assume that, in this altered timeline, Spock will be assigned to the exact same ship he was before? The coincidence of the exact same crew of Enterprise ending up on the same ship together is just a contrivance by the writers, but Nero knowing which ship he's on? That's just him reading the script.

Besides, if he's so sure nuSpock is on the Enterprise, why does he go around hastily destroying Federation ships without checking their names? He only says "wait!" at the last second, realizing it's the Enterprise just before he's about to destroy it.

He recognises the design and the possibility of Spock being onboard is enough for him to halt the attack. Furthermore he requires the subspace codes for Earth defenses and since he destroyed every other ship, the only place he can get them is from Enterprise.

2) I still can't get past oldSpock inputting a simple formula into the transporter and suddenly being able to transport half way across the galaxy. IIRC that wasn't even possible for ships in the TNG/DS9/Voyager timeline, but even if it were, hadn't the Enterprise already gone to warp several hours before that? How do they even locate the ship? Even TNG/DS9/Voyager era sensors can't seem to track a ship after it goes to warp, so how do oldSpock/Scott/Kirk do it?

It was a couple of lightyears away at best. Besides, I think the film was hinting at the fact that Scotty had theorised the formula in his younger years and then finally worked it out in the 2380's.

3) When Kirk and Scott beam to the Enterprise, Scott ends up trapped in a fluid conduit. When Kirk hits the release valve to free him, Scott falls about 20 feet to the ground and lands face first. Despite this, Scott gets up and walks away completely unharmed.

He didn't fall that hard and his chest and torso probably absorbed most of the impact, rather than landing face first.

4) When Spock decides to beam down to Vulcan to save the elders, why doesn't he beam there directly from the bridge? Why does he waste precious time casually walking to the transporter room? If he'd gotten there just a minute sooner, his mom probably wouldn't have died.

He didn't casually walk to the transporter room, he rushed there as best as one could onboard a busy starship during red alert. The bridge didn't have transporter pads, therefore he had to go to the transporter room.

5) Since when does temporarily being put in charge of a ship automatically promote someone to "captain" (e.g. "Captain Spock", "Captain Kirk")? Of all the times Picard left the Enterprise leaving Riker in charge, he was never called "Captain Riker", it was always still "Commander Riker".

Both Robau and Pike left with the very real possibility that they weren't coming back (true in Robau's case). Therefore they promoted Kirk and Spock respectively to the temporary field rank of Captain. It's tradition to call anyone in command of a ship "Captain", regardless of their rank.

 

[DrBashir]

If Nero required the defense codes, why would he first order the Enterprise destroyed and the change his mind when he realized what ship it was? It sure doesn't sound like he required anythind from it at all. It may be nice to have the key to the front door of the house but a rocg through the window will get you in just as well, especiall if there's no neighbours around to hear.

And what were the defenses anyway? A space station that you could easily avoid by staying on the other side of the planet and some shuttles from the academy? It's not like there was even one starship in the system.

 

[William Wallace]

There is no change in gravity as mass can neither be created or destroyed (Conservation of Matter). The black hole now has the same mass as the planet it just consumed, so the gravity is still the same as it was when Vulcan occupied that orbit in the system.

So why causes the planet to implode on itself if the gravity never actually changes?

He didn't casually walk to the transporter room, he rushed there as best as one could onboard a busy starship during red alert.

Yes he does. If you'll remember, Chekov races to the transporter room after Spock does (and curiously doesn't use the same elevator that Spock did), and still manages to get there about a minute before Spock does. How does that happen if Spock isn't casually walking there?

The bridge didn't have transporter pads, therefore he had to go to the transporter room.

Why does it need transporter pads? There were no transporter pads in mid-air when Chekov beamed Kirk and Sulu back to the ship, so obviously you don't need transporter pads in both places. So why wouldn't they be able to beam Spock from the bridge to the transporter room?

 

[Devon]

So why causes the planet to implode on itself if the gravity never actually changes?

Its a domino effect. The "event horizon" appeared in the middle of the planet, so whatever there was gone, and then whatever was around it lost its support and started falling toward the center of gravity as well. Thus, Nero was correct in wanting to have the black hole "erupt" in the center rather than the side of the planet.

 

[Pauln6]

Being isolated can mean ore ships call only once every twenty years. It has everything to do with the frequency of social contact, and in this context nothing necessarily to do with physical proximity.

But it makes a lot less sense. Scotty's base is not set up to monitor emergency signals of any kind so he is unaware of the Vulcan's tectonic disturbances, he isn't monitoring when the planet next door implodes, he isn't monitoring the hundreds of Vulcan distress calls once Nero's drill is destroyed, and he doesn't even detect a distress signal ON THE SAME PLANET even though it's been running for about a day by the time Kirk turns up.

Thus, he has a transporter that sends people further than anyone in Starfleet in TNG, Warp speeds are way faster than in TNG, detailed sensor scans work at far greater distances than TNG but communications systems can't detect emergency signals next door? More lameness or did you just open up a plot hole?

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

That wasn't made clear...and kinda makes a mockery of "heavy" damage...

They don't have to make such things clear.

Sometimes, in westerns, there are long shoot-outs where both sides take cover. Same thing during war movies.

The audience is expected to assume that sometime during all the cutting back and forth, people reload.

 

[M'Sharak]

...or did you just open up a plot hole?

This jumped out at me, for some reason. What sort of tool would you use to do that?

? or maybe

?

 

[Set Harth]

If Scotty was THAT close to Vulcan he would have been fully aware of the distress calls that reached Earth and fully aware of the planet's destruction

He's much closer to Vulcan than Earth in any case.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Did Scotty indicate that he was unaware of the situation at Vulcan? (Unambiguously indicate this, I mean.)

 

[William Wallace]

So why causes the planet to implode on itself if the gravity never actually changes?

Its a domino effect. The "event horizon" appeared in the middle of the planet, so whatever there was gone, and then whatever was around it lost its support and started falling toward the center of gravity as well. Thus, Nero was correct in wanting to have the black hole "erupt" in the center rather than the side of the planet.

OK, then, how about this: isn't the inside of the Earth (and presumably Vulcan) made of molten lava? Even if you drill a hole to the center, wouldn't that hole be instantly filled with lava, blocking any access to the planet's core?