FX/editing wishlist/technical/related discussion for STNG-R

[Tomalak]

There is no 'maybe' about this. As has been stated numerous times, ALL of the 'special FX' will have to be re-added. Phaser beams, transporter beams, lighting...etc. The ships were captured on film...anything added to them afterward were done on Video Tape.

IIRC the transporter effect exists on 35mm too, as it was captured from Dan Curry shaking some silver pom-poms. Hopefully they'll be able to exactly replicate the effect in HD.

 

[JJohnson]

There is no 'maybe' about this. As has been stated numerous times, ALL of the 'special FX' will have to be re-added. Phaser beams, transporter beams, lighting...etc. The ships were captured on film...anything added to them afterward were done on Video Tape.

IIRC the transporter effect exists on 35mm too, as it was captured from Dan Curry shaking some silver pom-poms. Hopefully they'll be able to exactly replicate the effect in HD.

I thought I remember them saying it was glitter swirled about in an aquarium. Either way, I'm open to this being changed also to being a more '3-D' effect, as it appeared in the TNG movies. Not changing the actual effect, just making the particles themselves appear more three-dimensional.

Phasers, I hope they add light reflections to the ship's hull for those, and make the shields look more energy-like when struck by weaponry. Tractor beams could use sprucing up too.

And, like many others, I hope that we see more than just a hundred Excelsiors and Miranda class ships - how about Constitution, New Orleans, Centaur, Challenger, Cheyenne, Freedom, Niagara, Norway, Saber, Shelley, Springfield, and Steamrunner? Starfleet is more than 3 ship classes!

 

[Mott the barber]

Re: Ent-D physical vs CGI modeling for new VFX

I imagine that part of the reason they are going with a sampler instead of a full release is that they want feedback on some of the effects work, particularly the numerous stock footage shots of the various E-D models and whether the constant switching between them is too jarring. If there's enough complaints about the model inconsistancy, they might go with just a CGI E-D in the rest TNG-R.

A quick look at the Ent-D in TATV from ENT in 2005: video here:
http://www.edenfx.com/PROJECTS/Enterprise/index.html#2

I mentioned over 2 1/2 years ago for consistency that they would go with the CGI model and they probably will for seasons 1-7 except the episodes on the sampler. Yes it would be controversial. I'm not turning this thread into a physical model vs CGI model thread but only bringing it up for discussion of episodes like #711 Parallels.


As far as the Ent-D CGI canon model details out there already:
http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=2693205&postcount=21

and 3 images here from Eden FX's Gabriel Köerner for TATV:
http://trekbbs.com/showthread.php?p=2721777#post2721777


that as well as the CGI FX on TNG not looking good:
Ron Moore one of the veterans of ST:TNG digital visual effects mentioned his effects on ST:TNG were created [at 29.97fps] without the 3:2 pulldown mimicking a 24fps-film-to-videotape-look.
according to the Millimeter.com March 2002 article on "ST:Enterprise" CGI effects. It's not on the link though.

Hey guys! Haven't posted here in forever, but I just learned of the Blu-Ray release. Amazing news, especially since many f us thought the technical hurdles would prevent it from ever happening.

Re: above, the one thing that always bugged me when the remade the E-D in CGI (whether it be in TATV or even in video/computer games) was that the saucer impulse engines are always lit up red.

In the series, they were NEVER lit up unless the saucer was separated. I hope they stay true to the series version and keep those suckers off!

 

[Mott the barber]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Probably because Okuda and his team created most* of those graphics before filming began and so they are actually in the shot, captured on 35mm film. They had CRTs running at 48Hz, synched to the film camera, displaying those images.

* On some occasions, the filming schedule made this impossible.

Where did you hear that? The vast majority of animated LCARS graphics in TNG were done in post, especially if they required the graphics to be interactive. The only CRTs I definitely remember were on the Battle Bridge in 'BOBW' and the Runabout from 'Timescape' (although that was a DS9 set, who made more use of CRT displays), but I'm sure there are more instances.

It'll be interesting to see how they handle them for HD.

Actually, on further thought, you're probably right on this. Though I don't know if they represent the "vast" majority. The aft station panels on the bridge often used live video playback. But every time they showed the main display in the observation lounge or had a closeup of Picard's computer in his ready room, they had to do it in post.

The LCARS wikipedia page is where I got my info from and is probably in error. It says, As the show progressed, use of animations increased. Most were displayed on video equipment built into the sets.

Here's the relevant footnote from the Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual:

Most of our control panels and displays are large photographic transparencies designed by Mike Okuda and Cari Thomas using Adobe Illustrator, as well as conventional pen-and-ink techniques. These large sheets of film are mounted on Plexiglas sheets and backlit with electronic "blinkies" by the Star Trek special mechanical effects department under the supervision of Dick Brownfield. The result is a very clean "high tech" look to our panels. When a panel must be seen in close-up, Mike often creates animated readouts on his Macintosh II computers using such programs as Macromind Director, Supermac's Pixel Paint, and Paracomp 's Swivel 3D. The resulting graphics are directly outputted to videotape using a Raster Ops board. The visual effects department is then responsible for digitally superimposing these displays onto the control panels in postproduction.

I am 99% sure that none of the aft stations on the E-D during the series ever had live video playing on them (except, as mentioned, on the battle bridge in BOBW pt. 2). In fact, if you watch the DVDs, often times (especially in the earlier seasons 1-2) you can see black squares placed over where the screens should be in order to keep the stage light reflections off the "screens."
The close ups, as mentioned, were all edited in post production.

 

[Mott the barber]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

The bridge stations in TNG used back-lit displays, the only exception I've found so far was the future 1701-D from 'All Good Things...' I don't know how to link screencaps from TrekCore, but the proof's over there.

Yeah, my memory must really be playing tricks on me. It appears there are only a small set of examples where they actually filmed a monitor:

http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/s1/1x03/nakednow052.jpg
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/s3/3x02/evolution249.jpg
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/s3/3x25/transfigurations120.jpg

Let's hope Okuda kept his original files for those animations because they'll have to either recreate them all or use the videotape masters they were originally output to (but at least they will be full screen 480i animations, rather than shrunken down and distorted final comps.)

I should read the whole thread first...

Okay I'm 90% sure.

Good catch.

 

[Caretaker]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Here's a question- should space look more like, well, space? I know we're trained by tv to think that space is actually just a smattering of stars, but that's actually not the case at all- if you're ever star-gazed in an area with little light pollution (my most vivid memory of doing so is in the South Island of NZ) you'll realize that space is actually PACKED with stars, nebula- even other galaxies are visible! And this is from Earth, where there is atmosphere and ambient light diffusing everything. It must look totally nuts when you're actually IN space.

Problem with doing this for the exterior shots means they'd really have to do it for all the interior shots, as well- although I suppose there is a lot of ambient light inside to diffuse everything.

I thought back to this today when I rewatched "Trials and Tribble-ations" (I know, different show, but the point stands). When they shots are of Sisko in front of the window in his office, there are so few stars it is unbelievable. Unfortunately, I don't think the old starfield backdrop really works anymore - hopefully for scenes against the space backdrop, they can edit in a lot more stars, et al.

 

[JJohnson]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Where did you hear that? The vast majority of animated LCARS graphics in TNG were done in post, especially if they required the graphics to be interactive. The only CRTs I definitely remember were on the Battle Bridge in 'BOBW' and the Runabout from 'Timescape' (although that was a DS9 set, who made more use of CRT displays), but I'm sure there are more instances.

It'll be interesting to see how they handle them for HD.

Actually, on further thought, you're probably right on this. Though I don't know if they represent the "vast" majority. The aft station panels on the bridge often used live video playback. But every time they showed the main display in the observation lounge or had a closeup of Picard's computer in his ready room, they had to do it in post.

The LCARS wikipedia page is where I got my info from and is probably in error. It says, As the show progressed, use of animations increased. Most were displayed on video equipment built into the sets.

Here's the relevant footnote from the Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual:

Most of our control panels and displays are large photographic transparencies designed by Mike Okuda and Cari Thomas using Adobe Illustrator, as well as conventional pen-and-ink techniques. These large sheets of film are mounted on Plexiglas sheets and backlit with electronic "blinkies" by the Star Trek special mechanical effects department under the supervision of Dick Brownfield. The result is a very clean "high tech" look to our panels. When a panel must be seen in close-up, Mike often creates animated readouts on his Macintosh II computers using such programs as Macromind Director, Supermac's Pixel Paint, and Paracomp 's Swivel 3D. The resulting graphics are directly outputted to videotape using a Raster Ops board. The visual effects department is then responsible for digitally superimposing these displays onto the control panels in postproduction.

I am 99% sure that none of the aft stations on the E-D during the series ever had live video playing on them (except, as mentioned, on the battle bridge in BOBW pt. 2). In fact, if you watch the DVDs, often times (especially in the earlier seasons 1-2) you can see black squares placed over where the screens should be in order to keep the stage light reflections off the "screens."
The close ups, as mentioned, were all edited in post production.

Hopefully the screws holding the boards up can be digitally edited out, and the overlaid 'active graphics' can be more realistically overlaid to look as if it were really there.

 

[RAMA]

So aside from the music idea which I mentioned that I quite like...I thought of an extra that would nice...I know that there are a lot of short extras on the DVDs about the production, but what I'd like to see is a really long, official, in-depth documentary on the making of the series....they could edit together a lot of the previous footage and probably come up with something decent, but I'd really like to maybe see a new documentary that had a lot of the behind the scenes people discussing it, from writing to editing.

Edit: I JUST saw something else I'd want to tweak....at Picard's voice-over at the beginning of Farpoint...the ship comes towards the screen, it looks as if we will fly directly through the window in a continuous shot...but the model jumps to a scene filmed on a sound-stage with Picard looking out the window. Now this is just the sort of scene a computer is great at, and couldn't be done effectively back then on a tv budget.

 

[Start Wreck]

Edit: I JUST saw something else I'd want to tweak....at Picard's voice-over at the beginning of Farpoint...the ship comes towards the screen, it looks as if we will fly directly through the window in a continuous shot...but the model jumps to a scene filmed on a sound-stage with Picard looking out the window. Now this is just the sort of scene a computer is great at, and couldn't be done effectively back then on a tv budget.

That would be a nice touch, but unless the physical set window matches up precisely with the ship model to allow a simple transitional fade/zoom effect to be done, it would mean creating a CGI model of the Enterprise, either for the entire shot (which would be a shame, because it's a brilliant model shot) or to blend into the end of the existing shot without it looking like it changes.

I wouldn't be against such a thing, though. It would nicely mirror the opening shot of TOS (The Cage), and I'm all for that.

 

[Start Wreck]

Here's the clip, by the way: http://youtu.be/lfTXYoKcjgc?t=2m18s

It would probably need to be sped up a bit (or cut shorter) because it would have to match the timing of the original. I can't see that happening, sadly.

 

[JJohnson]

Here's the clip, by the way: http://youtu.be/lfTXYoKcjgc?t=2m18s

It would probably need to be sped up a bit (or cut shorter) because it would have to match the timing of the original. I can't see that happening, sadly.

Oh, you are absolutely right! I remember seeing The Menagerie in theaters, and that shot was amazing!! That is now on the list!

Mike Okuda, anyone else involved with TNG Remastered, please consider this seriously!

 

[David cgc]

I know they shot the ships on film, and that's nice and all, but what about the evasive maneuvers when the ship simply sits there, the same 5 or 6 shots of 'standard orbit' or warping past? Those might use a nice physical model, but I would seriously want them to change those out for variety's sake and to give viewers something more than simply a cleaned up image.

Yeah, and why does Picard have to do the same stupid two-finger-pointing gesture every time he says "Engage!"? They should CGI it so sometimes he flips his hand, like Kirk, or gives the helmsman the bird. In fact, why have him say "Engage!" all the time, too? After twenty-five years, the fans are bored of that. They should get an impression artist to come in and loop over Picard's lines, so sometimes he says, "Punch it!" or "Let's burn rubber, baby!" or "Pedal to the metal!"

You know, change things up a bit. If I'm going to be buying a digitally remastered version of Star Trek: The Next Generation, the last thing I want to see is Star Trek: The Next Generation.

 

[Sean Aaron]

Yeah, and why does Picard have to do the same stupid two-finger-pointing gesture every time he says "Engage!"? They should CGI it so sometimes he flips his hand, like Kirk, or gives the helmsman the bird. In fact, why have him say "Engage!" all the time, too? After twenty-five years, the fans are bored of that. They should get an impression artist to come in and loop over Picard's lines, so sometimes he says, "Punch it!" or "Let's burn rubber, baby!" or "Pedal to the metal!"

I like that idea, but why have an impressionist do it? Just lift the dialogue from another film and lay it right in there. That would be sweet!

 

[22 Stars]

I know they shot the ships on film, and that's nice and all, but what about the evasive maneuvers when the ship simply sits there, the same 5 or 6 shots of 'standard orbit' or warping past? Those might use a nice physical model, but I would seriously want them to change those out for variety's sake and to give viewers something more than simply a cleaned up image.

Yeah, and why does Picard have to do the same stupid two-finger-pointing gesture every time he says "Engage!"? They should CGI it so sometimes he flips his hand, like Kirk, or gives the helmsman the bird. In fact, why have him say "Engage!" all the time, too? After twenty-five years, the fans are bored of that. They should get an impression artist to come in and loop over Picard's lines, so sometimes he says, "Punch it!" or "Let's burn rubber, baby!" or "Pedal to the metal!"

You know, change things up a bit. If I'm going to be buying a digitally remastered version of Star Trek: The Next Generation, the last thing I want to see is Star Trek: The Next Generation.

Lol...

 

[Sean Aaron]

Yeah, and why does Picard have to do the same stupid two-finger-pointing gesture every time he says "Engage!"? They should CGI it so sometimes he flips his hand, like Kirk, or gives the helmsman the bird.

If the CGI is too expensive they can always edit in scenes from the X-Men films...

 

[Doug Otte]

I know they shot the ships on film, and that's nice and all, but what about the evasive maneuvers when the ship simply sits there, the same 5 or 6 shots of 'standard orbit' or warping past? Those might use a nice physical model, but I would seriously want them to change those out for variety's sake and to give viewers something more than simply a cleaned up image.

Yeah, and why does Picard have to do the same stupid two-finger-pointing gesture every time he says "Engage!"? They should CGI it so sometimes he flips his hand, like Kirk, or gives the helmsman the bird. In fact, why have him say "Engage!" all the time, too? After twenty-five years, the fans are bored of that. They should get an impression artist to come in and loop over Picard's lines, so sometimes he says, "Punch it!" or "Let's burn rubber, baby!" or "Pedal to the metal!"

You know, change things up a bit. If I'm going to be buying a digitally remastered version of Star Trek: The Next Generation, the last thing I want to see is Star Trek: The Next Generation.

Thanks for the laugh.

They could loop in Kirk's line from the end of CotEoF: "Let's get the hell out of here."

Doug

 

[RAMA]

Here's the clip, by the way: http://youtu.be/lfTXYoKcjgc?t=2m18s

It would probably need to be sped up a bit (or cut shorter) because it would have to match the timing of the original. I can't see that happening, sadly.

Oh, you are absolutely right! I remember seeing The Menagerie in theaters, and that shot was amazing!! That is now on the list!

Mike Okuda, anyone else involved with TNG Remastered, please consider this seriously!

Yup, and I also hope that Best of Both Worlds winds up on the big screen for a limited engagement.

 

[RAMA]

I know they shot the ships on film, and that's nice and all, but what about the evasive maneuvers when the ship simply sits there, the same 5 or 6 shots of 'standard orbit' or warping past? Those might use a nice physical model, but I would seriously want them to change those out for variety's sake and to give viewers something more than simply a cleaned up image.

Yeah, and why does Picard have to do the same stupid two-finger-pointing gesture every time he says "Engage!"? They should CGI it so sometimes he flips his hand, like Kirk, or gives the helmsman the bird. In fact, why have him say "Engage!" all the time, too? After twenty-five years, the fans are bored of that. They should get an impression artist to come in and loop over Picard's lines, so sometimes he says, "Punch it!" or "Let's burn rubber, baby!" or "Pedal to the metal!"

You know, change things up a bit. If I'm going to be buying a digitally remastered version of Star Trek: The Next Generation, the last thing I want to see is Star Trek: The Next Generation.

Thanks for the laugh.

They could loop in Kirk's line from the end of CotEoF: "Let's get the hell out of here."

Doug

Funny...but still, the finger pointing isn't an effect...we're talking about FX here that don't significantly change the story, but could be used for variety's sake...much like TOS-R added new bases and a Romulan BoP to the Kilingon D7s they were using. Still...if they use mostly original footage, I doubt any of these changes will be made, unless they go full CGI after the sampler disc.

 

[TheSeeker]

Yup, and I also hope that Best of Both Worlds winds up on the big screen for a limited engagement.

That would be sweet!

 

[Mark_Nguyen]

Aha, but then people would have to deal with the second part, where shots of Worf and Data firing at Borg drones were recycled from the first. Tougher to sneak by than the shots of the Enterprise firing and being fired upon that were also recycled.

Mark