FX/editing wishlist/technical/related discussion for STNG-R

[ATimson]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Yeah, I saw that... I wish both versions were available on blu-ray

I can't imagine that there's enough of a market for separate cropped versions...

 

[gaghyogi49]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

More shots from "The inner light" that will have to be redone:

Footage of Patrick Stewart at Bronson Canyon mixed with matte painting of the village and little moving figures.

Moving LCARS display featuring early CG views of the Kataan probe. I guess all those animated LCARS displays that were added in post production will have to be recreated from scratch? I can't imagine old footage of those animations to a) still be around b) hold up to a HD presentation.

A chance to flesh out the launch vehicle a little.

 

[Mark_Nguyen]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

The big one from "Farpoint", for me, will be to see what they do with the one and only phaser shot the Enterprise fires in the episode. To wit:

http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/s1/1x02/farpoint2_208.jpg

The beam color is fine as it was meant to provide energy to the alien thingy, but it's totally coming from the wrong place. I honestly wonder if they'll bother changing the shot to show the phaser powering up and coming from the actual emitter instead of some random greebly on the hull.

Then there's the alien models themselves. I do wonder if it would be easier to swap in the CGI model created for the SOTL calendar a while back...

Mark

 

[RAMA]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

More shots from "The inner light" that will have to be redone:

Footage of Patrick Stewart at Bronson Canyon mixed with matte painting of the village and little moving figures.

This was Dan Curry's first mixed photo/digital matte according to the DVD extra: Departmental Briefing: Profile Dan Curry (19:56) looks at the work done by the show´s special effects supervisor. He takes the viewer for a tour at his home that is laced with artifacts from the show and paintings from production and other work done by Curry and his son.

According to Mike Okuda...very little editing is being done to those graphics inserted onto video screens. Not sure why this is the case.

 

[RAMA]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

The big one from "Farpoint", for me, will be to see what they do with the one and only phaser shot the Enterprise fires in the episode. To wit:

http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/s1/1x02/farpoint2_208.jpg

The beam color is fine as it was meant to provide energy to the alien thingy, but it's totally coming from the wrong place. I honestly wonder if they'll bother changing the shot to show the phaser powering up and coming from the actual emitter instead of some random greebly on the hull.

Then there's the alien models themselves. I do wonder if it would be easier to swap in the CGI model created for the SOTL calendar a while back...

Mark

It's not really clear where the energy should be emanating from to feed the jellyfish. Its not phaser fire. More likely it should come from where the tractor beam is emanated from.

 

[Ebuntor]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

I understand that they've "recompositioned the effects". Could someone please explain what recompositioning is?

They scanned the various parts of the effects scenes (ships, star backgrounds, etc...) that were filmed on different rolls of film, then layered them over each other in a computer and recreated the final shot used in the show in higher quality.

I understand that they've "recompositioned the effects". Could someone please explain what recompositioning is?

These two posts over in the The OFFICIAL STNG-R discussion thread give a pretty good summary of it.

Link 1.

Link 2.

Thanks to both of you.

 

[Doug Otte]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

I understand that they've "recompositioned the effects". Could someone please explain what recompositioning is?

I know "recomposition" is the term used in the release, but isn't the correct term "recomposit"?

Doug

 

[jefferiestubes8]

Ent-D physical vs CGI modeling for new VFX

I imagine that part of the reason they are going with a sampler instead of a full release is that they want feedback on some of the effects work, particularly the numerous stock footage shots of the various E-D models and whether the constant switching between them is too jarring. If there's enough complaints about the model inconsistancy, they might go with just a CGI E-D in the rest TNG-R.

A quick look at the Ent-D in TATV from ENT in 2005: video here:
http://www.edenfx.com/PROJECTS/Enterprise/index.html#2

I mentioned over 2 1/2 years ago for consistency that they would go with the CGI model and they probably will for seasons 1-7 except the episodes on the sampler. Yes it would be controversial. I'm not turning this thread into a physical model vs CGI model thread but only bringing it up for discussion of episodes like #711 Parallels.


As far as the Ent-D CGI canon model details out there already:
http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=2693205&postcount=21

and 3 images here from Eden FX's Gabriel Köerner for TATV:
http://trekbbs.com/showthread.php?p=2721777#post2721777


that as well as the CGI FX on TNG not looking good:
Ron Moore one of the veterans of ST:TNG digital visual effects mentioned his effects on ST:TNG were created [at 29.97fps] without the 3:2 pulldown mimicking a 24fps-film-to-videotape-look.
according to the Millimeter.com March 2002 article on "ST:Enterprise" CGI effects. It's not on the link though.

 

[Mark_Nguyen]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

It's not really clear where the energy should be emanating from to feed the jellyfish. Its not phaser fire. More likely it should come from where the tractor beam is emanated from.

Well, Picard quite plainly asks Yar to "rig a phaser beam" to deliver the energy. While you are right and there's nothing to suggest that a phaser emitter ISN'T just fore of where the Captain's Yacht is supposed to be, IMO it would be a simple and welcome fix to show said phaser beam coming where said beams ought to come from. Some years later in "Cost of Living" the E-D disposes of gooifying micro-organisms via phaser beam, and lo and behold, that one comes from where it ought to AND looks remarkably like the beam in "Farpoint":

http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/s5/5x20/costliving268.jpg

Mark

 

[Maxwell Everett]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

According to Mike Okuda...very little editing is being done to those graphics inserted onto video screens. Not sure why this is the case.

Probably because Okuda and his team created most* of those graphics before filming began and so they are actually in the shot, captured on 35mm film. They had CRTs running at 48Hz, synched to the film camera, displaying those images.

* On some occasions, the filming schedule made this impossible.

 

[RAMA]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

According to Mike Okuda...very little editing is being done to those graphics inserted onto video screens. Not sure why this is the case.

Probably because Okuda and his team created most* of those graphics before filming began and so they are actually in the shot, captured on 35mm film. They had CRTs running at 48Hz, synched to the film camera, displaying those images.

* On some occasions, the filming schedule made this impossible.

I wonder what the percentage is, because I thought it was relatively uncommon to loop film through tv monitors on STNG. Its still unfortunate, the video quality of some look fairly poor.

RAMA

 

[Ghostface1701]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

According to Mike Okuda...very little editing is being done to those graphics inserted onto video screens. Not sure why this is the case.

Probably because Okuda and his team created most* of those graphics before filming began and so they are actually in the shot, captured on 35mm film. They had CRTs running at 48Hz, synched to the film camera, displaying those images.

* On some occasions, the filming schedule made this impossible.

Where did you hear that? The vast majority of animated LCARS graphics in TNG were done in post, especially if they required the graphics to be interactive. The only CRTs I definitely remember were on the Battle Bridge in 'BOBW' and the Runabout from 'Timescape' (although that was a DS9 set, who made more use of CRT displays), but I'm sure there are more instances.

It'll be interesting to see how they handle them for HD.

 

[JarodRussell]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

The holographic LCARS they had in the earliest episodes will be interesting.

And in HD, we will actually be able to read the text.

 

[RAMA]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

According to Mike Okuda...very little editing is being done to those graphics inserted onto video screens. Not sure why this is the case.

Probably because Okuda and his team created most* of those graphics before filming began and so they are actually in the shot, captured on 35mm film. They had CRTs running at 48Hz, synched to the film camera, displaying those images.

* On some occasions, the filming schedule made this impossible.

Where did you hear that? The vast majority of animated LCARS graphics in TNG were done in post, especially if they required the graphics to be interactive. The only CRTs I definitely remember were on the Battle Bridge in 'BOBW' and the Runabout from 'Timescape' (although that was a DS9 set, who made more use of CRT displays), but I'm sure there are more instances.

It'll be interesting to see how they handle them for HD.

This is all I found so far:

According to a Next Generation episode text commentary by Michael and Denise Okuda, the LCARS displays were rarely actual computer simulations; one such example was the computer screen used by Romulan Cmdr Sela to monitor the Federation fleet during her attempt to smuggle weapons and supplies to Lursa and B'Etor during the Klingon civil war in the episode "Redemption II". This was due to the fact, according to the Okudas, of both the high cost and primitive state of computer graphics in the late 1980s and early 1990s. Therefore, most LCARS displays were, in fact, plastic panels with spinning light devices behind them to give the impression that the information on the "displays" was changing.

 

[Maxwell Everett]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

According to Mike Okuda...very little editing is being done to those graphics inserted onto video screens. Not sure why this is the case.

Probably because Okuda and his team created most* of those graphics before filming began and so they are actually in the shot, captured on 35mm film. They had CRTs running at 48Hz, synched to the film camera, displaying those images.

* On some occasions, the filming schedule made this impossible.

Where did you hear that? The vast majority of animated LCARS graphics in TNG were done in post, especially if they required the graphics to be interactive. The only CRTs I definitely remember were on the Battle Bridge in 'BOBW' and the Runabout from 'Timescape' (although that was a DS9 set, who made more use of CRT displays), but I'm sure there are more instances.

It'll be interesting to see how they handle them for HD.

Actually, on further thought, you're probably right on this. Though I don't know if they represent the "vast" majority. The aft station panels on the bridge often used live video playback. But every time they showed the main display in the observation lounge or had a closeup of Picard's computer in his ready room, they had to do it in post.

The LCARS wikipedia page is where I got my info from and is probably in error. It says, As the show progressed, use of animations increased. Most were displayed on video equipment built into the sets.

Here's the relevant footnote from the Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual:

Most of our control panels and displays are large photographic transparencies designed by Mike Okuda and Cari Thomas using Adobe Illustrator, as well as conventional pen-and-ink techniques. These large sheets of film are mounted on Plexiglas sheets and backlit with electronic "blinkies" by the Star Trek special mechanical effects department under the supervision of Dick Brownfield. The result is a very clean "high tech" look to our panels. When a panel must be seen in close-up, Mike often creates animated readouts on his Macintosh II computers using such programs as Macromind Director, Supermac's Pixel Paint, and Paracomp 's Swivel 3D. The resulting graphics are directly outputted to videotape using a Raster Ops board. The visual effects department is then responsible for digitally superimposing these displays onto the control panels in postproduction.

 

[Maxwell Everett]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Here's an example of what might be done with "The Arsenal of Freedom." Though the compositing is obviously terrible due to the low quality video source. But since they're going back to the OCN using 4:4:4 color, the results would be much, much better.

 

[Ghostface1701]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

This is all I found so far:

According to a Next Generation episode text commentary by Michael and Denise Okuda, the LCARS displays were rarely actual computer simulations; one such example was the computer screen used by Romulan Cmdr Sela to monitor the Federation fleet during her attempt to smuggle weapons and supplies to Lursa and B'Etor during the Klingon civil war in the episode "Redemption II". This was due to the fact, according to the Okudas, of both the high cost and primitive state of computer graphics in the late 1980s and early 1990s. Therefore, most LCARS displays were, in fact, plastic panels with spinning light devices behind them to give the impression that the information on the "displays" was changing.

Probably because Okuda and his team created most* of those graphics before filming began and so they are actually in the shot, captured on 35mm film. They had CRTs running at 48Hz, synched to the film camera, displaying those images.

* On some occasions, the filming schedule made this impossible.

Where did you hear that? The vast majority of animated LCARS graphics in TNG were done in post, especially if they required the graphics to be interactive. The only CRTs I definitely remember were on the Battle Bridge in 'BOBW' and the Runabout from 'Timescape' (although that was a DS9 set, who made more use of CRT displays), but I'm sure there are more instances.

It'll be interesting to see how they handle them for HD.

Actually, on further thought, you're probably right on this. Though I don't know if they represent the "vast" majority. The aft station panels on the bridge often used live video playback. But every time they showed the main display in the observation lounge or had a closeup of Picard's computer in his ready room, they had to do it in post.

The LCARS wikipedia page is where I got my info from and is probably in error. It says, As the show progressed, use of animations increased. Most were displayed on video equipment built into the sets.

Here's the relevant footnote from the Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual:

Most of our control panels and displays are large photographic transparencies designed by Mike Okuda and Cari Thomas using Adobe Illustrator, as well as conventional pen-and-ink techniques. These large sheets of film are mounted on Plexiglas sheets and backlit with electronic "blinkies" by the Star Trek special mechanical effects department under the supervision of Dick Brownfield. The result is a very clean "high tech" look to our panels. When a panel must be seen in close-up, Mike often creates animated readouts on his Macintosh II computers using such programs as Macromind Director, Supermac's Pixel Paint, and Paracomp 's Swivel 3D. The resulting graphics are directly outputted to videotape using a Raster Ops board. The visual effects department is then responsible for digitally superimposing these displays onto the control panels in postproduction.

Ah, yes, the blinkies. There were plenty of those in TNG

The wiki page is most likely refering to DS9 and VOY which had plenty of CRTs on-set (but still used composited animation for displays that needed to display certain graphics at specific times). The bridge stations in TNG used back-lit displays, the only exception I've found so far was the future 1701-D from 'All Good Things...' I don't know how to link screencaps from TrekCore, but the proof's over there.

 

[Maxwell Everett]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

The bridge stations in TNG used back-lit displays, the only exception I've found so far was the future 1701-D from 'All Good Things...' I don't know how to link screencaps from TrekCore, but the proof's over there.

Yeah, my memory must really be playing tricks on me. It appears there are only a small set of examples where they actually filmed a monitor:

http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/s1/1x03/nakednow052.jpg
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/s3/3x02/evolution249.jpg
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/s3/3x25/transfigurations120.jpg

Let's hope Okuda kept his original files for those animations because they'll have to either recreate them all or use the videotape masters they were originally output to (but at least they will be full screen 480i animations, rather than shrunken down and distorted final comps.)

 

[Skywalker]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Here's an example of what might be done with "The Arsenal of Freedom." Though the compositing is obviously terrible due to the low quality video source. But since they're going back to the OCN using 4:4:4 color, the results would be much, much better.

Do want.

 

[Start Wreck]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Does anyone know how the early season planets were created? Unless they can make them sharper when they recomposit them, it's going to look substandard for HD. They're so blurry, even on the DVDs, that I imagine they'll be forced to create brand new ones.

I'd love to see new matte paintings too. The ones made for TOS-R were beautiful and very faithful to the originals.

As for the ship models: I wonder, since the 4-foot model doesn't appear until the later seasons, if they'll have enough time to perfect a CGI replacement by then, one that closer resembles the 6-footer?