It's "Most Valuable Player". The most valuable player is the one who get's his team to win. The team that wins is the team with the most runs.
2011 MLB Season Discussion
- Thread starter tomalak301
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^ In that case...
Bautistia: 145 runs created; RC/G: 10.4; WAR: 8.4
Granderson: 123 runs created; RC/G: 7.4; WAR 5.5
There you have it, Bautista is worth almost three more wins than Granderson, and pretty much every advanced batting metric shows that Bautista has been a significantly better hitter this season. Hell, even Bautista's league-leading 1.058 OPS is over .100 better than Granderson's .943. He's had a very solid year, but the only two categories he's leading in are ones that are influenced by his teammate's performance as much as his own personal performance.
Bautistia: 145 runs created; RC/G: 10.4; WAR: 8.4
Granderson: 123 runs created; RC/G: 7.4; WAR 5.5
There you have it, Bautista is worth almost three more wins than Granderson, and pretty much every advanced batting metric shows that Bautista has been a significantly better hitter this season. Hell, even Bautista's league-leading 1.058 OPS is over .100 better than Granderson's .943. He's had a very solid year, but the only two categories he's leading in are ones that are influenced by his teammate's performance as much as his own personal performance.
None of which means anything if he doesn't get his team to the post season, which I know people don't like to hear but how many times in the last decade has a MVP come from a team that didn't get into the post season?
http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/mvp_cya.shtml
You're really of no value if your team is stuck second to last in the division.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/mvp_cya.shtml
You're really of no value if your team is stuck second to last in the division.
Didn't Bonds win MVP with a nearly last place team?
^ Easy, Alex Rodriguez in 2003, and his numbers weren't even as outstanding that year as Bautista's currently are. Getting to the playoffs shouldn't matter if you're head and shoulders above the competition when it comes to your stats, and Bautista, quite simply, is that much of a better hitter this year. There's no one in the majors that even comes close to his numbers.
And personally, I reject the idea that a player has no value if he can't bring a team to the playoffs completely on his own back. Bautista has no control over the Jays still being at least a year away from competing, and from where I'm sitting he's added a hell of a lot of value to the team.
And personally, I reject the idea that a player has no value if he can't bring a team to the playoffs completely on his own back. Bautista has no control over the Jays still being at least a year away from competing, and from where I'm sitting he's added a hell of a lot of value to the team.
THANK YOU. If the point of the MVP award was to give it to the person who drove in the most runs...whats the point of the award, because the individual can only do so much. Using RBIs to justify this is just completely wrong.
Keith Law on RBI's determining player value:
"Totally useless. In terms of measuring the value of a player’s performance, I find them absolutely useless because 1) it’s determined by how many opportunities you get — the guys who hit in front of you in the lineup, how often did they get on base; and 2) there’s no particular skill to driving runs in. There’s no such thing as a hitter who is significantly better in RBI opportunities. Guys might do that over a year or two over the course of their careers, but you are not seeing guys who are just substantially better than the norm with runners in scoring position. Obviously all hitters hit a little bit better with men on base and pitchers working out of the stretch, maybe he doesn’t generate the same velocity. But in general, a hitter’s a hitter, whether there’s nobody on base or there are guys on second and third. ...
There’s not really a guy out there who’s better in RBI situations. If you’re in an RBI situation, if you’re in a clutch situation, the guy you want at the plate is just your best hitter, period – the guy who’s going to produce the most offensively or give you the least chance of making an out, because obviously in a clutch situation, in an RBI situation, the last thing you want is an out. So get me the guy up there who’s the least likely to make an out or who’s most likely to get that extra-base hit, regardless of what the situation is, because I think if you really look deep down into it, over the course of multiple seasons, you won’t find that those guys who you’re talking about who step up in big situations really exist"
A great player should not be penalized for being on a shitty team (or in the Blue Jays case, a good but not playoff one.)
^ Yeah, that's a fantastic quote explaining why RBIs are a really overrated stat. The Jays haven't had a good leadoff hitter all year (it's been Mike McCoy recently, who's been rocking a .210 or so average), so it's reasonable to assume that with a better hitter there and in the number 9 spot, he could easily have 15-20 more RBIs than he does.
Indeed, twice. But Bonds' steroid induced numbers were ridiculous and better than what Bautista was putting up. The way it breaks down, 9 of the last 10 AL MVPs have come from post season bound teams. The exception was A-Rod in 2003 when he was with the Rangers...and we all know what was going on with that
With the NL, 6 of the last ten MVPs have come from a post season bound team. Most of the exceptions being Barry Bonds.
Combine them and 15 of the last 20 MVPs have come from post season bound teams. The ones who didn't were mostly steroid enhanced players putting up hall of fame numbers.
And more power to you, but I do see a trend
Much as I hate cheering against the Jays, having the Rays win and Boston lose today is just awesome.Hopefully the Sox can keep it up tonight.
Our support for each other for the Bautista MVP discussion was nice while it lasted....
.Ellsbury just catapulted his name back to the top of the list for the MVP discussion with the day he had. Wow. Hopefully this gives them enough momentum to make it in, cause once they get there, they have as good a chance as anyone.
Sure I can...no one ever says Babe Ruth had 171 RBIs or 177 runs because the team was so great even if they are. Granderson has 20 more runs than any other player. As far as the quote above...there are plenty of hitters who aren't "clutch" and leve too many men on base, let's give credit where credit is due. OBP means nothing if you can't score anyway.
Avg is overrated...you can hit .240 and have 40 hrs, 130 runs and 120 rbis...and you'd be a real run producer for the team.
RAMA
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If they went by the premise you have stated, then the MVP award would go to the Yankees lineup, not to Curtis Granderson.
So what if Granderson has 20 more runs then any other player? If Jose Bautista got on base 20 times, and was driven in 10 times, and Granderson got on base 20 times and was driven in 3 times, would Bautista be the better player? No, it just means the lineup around him is better. Hell, it makes the numbers Bautista puts up even more impressive because they can pitch around him, since there isn't an Arod or Teixiera hitting behind him.
Its an individual award. Given to an individual player. OBP, or even better OPS, is the most accurate stat there is for measure individual performance. The whole point of being a baseball player is to not make an out. The less times you do that, the better player you are. It is the root of the way the game is designed. Of course when you start factoring in other thing like average, HRs, that a complete picture emerges of the player. But saying things like average is overrated is just nonsense. I would rather take the guy who hits .300 with 25 HRs and a high OPB, rather then the guy who hits .240 with 25.
Every time Ellsbury hits a home run, Scott Boras adds another couple million dollars more to the inevitable massive contract he's going to want Ellsbury to get.
What do you mean? Everyone knows that Robinson Cano is only a marginally better second baseman than Kelly Johnson. The dude only has six more home runs.
Every time Ellsbury hits a home run, Scott Boras adds another couple million dollars more to the inevitable massive contract he's going to want Ellsbury to get.
Glad to see ya'll have taken a page from the Yankees
Hey, Ellsbury's still arbitration eligible for (I think) two more seasons. But if he keeps playing the way he has this season, I fully expect the Red Sox to pony up the big bucks (he is a Boras client, after all) to keep him in a Boston uniform for the foreseeable future. That's just the reality of MLB these days.
