Plot hole city: Part II!

[F. King Daniel]

Enterprise's dive into TITAN's atmosphere....wow

At warp 4? Doesn't warping through subspace circumvent all that? Because the Klingon Bird of Prey warped out of Earth's atmosphere in STIV without disturbing a single cloud. The Enterprise warped out of the Mutara Nebula in STII without sustaining any damage. The Enterprise-D did the same in "Best of Both Worlds"

 

[M'Sharak]

<snip>
Star Trek has had more than it's fair share of science (listed in example previously) but it's rarely gone out of it's way to get it wrong like this movie has.

*Diving into an atmosphere without the slightest sign of friction.

Without the slightest sign of friction? The skydivers may not have been glowing around the edges—and I don't know that you could show that a human beginning free fall from an effective velocity (relative to the planet's surface) of zero would ever achieve such speeds (how fast - thousands of miles per hour?) that heat caused by air friction would become a significant issue—but you can hear the difference between the near-silence at the beginning of the jump and the roar of rushing air which starts a minute or so later and above which sound Kirk yells to be heard.

Sign of friction? You make the call.

LOL!!!!

Skydivers....wow...
No.
Enterprises's Dive into TITAN's atmosphere....wow

Okay. Wow. The "why didn't the skydivers burn up?" question is one which has been raised several times before. Wow.

I don't think I recall having seen one previously concerning friction and Enterprise in Titan's atmosphere. Could that be because they were traveling at warp, exited and simultaneously came to full stop within Titan's atmosphere rather than approaching at sublight (but still wow) velocities and diving into it?

Wow.

[EDIT: Daniel beat me to it. Wow.]

 

[number6]

Wow.

 

[Saquist]

Enterprise's dive into TITAN's atmosphere....wow

At warp 4? Doesn't warping through subspace circumvent all that? Because the Klingon Bird of Prey warped out of Earth's atmosphere in STIV without disturbing a single cloud. The Enterprise warped out of the Mutara Nebula in STII without sustaining any damage. The Enterprise-D did the same in "Best of Both Worlds"

I've never heard that warping occured in subspace.
But yes, TVH did a boo boo too with the Bird of Prey.
In TWOK the area was clearly and the field density was no wear near that of an atmosphere (Its a Forrest for the trees thing)
Best of Both worlds didn't do it. They were on Full Impulse and then they went to warp once they cleared the nebula (which we never saw the jump to warp)

But in order to create that sense of wonder they had to draw on more than just silly science they had to be grounded in places even IF in other places they took more than a few liberties. It's give and take.

Look at that list and tell me there is more to be found in Trek's serious science category because I'm absolutely sure there is.

If everything in Trek were 100% accurate, we'd have no Spock, we'd have no giant space amoeba, the Enterprise would look vastly different, and the Federation would be completely redefined because of no FTL/Warp. Conversely, if it were 100% accurate, we wouldn't have such things as Trek's societal metaphors or the Great Barrier, because that all requires supposition and conjecture of the future, and by definition conjecture will very, very rarely be 100% accurate. What's right today might be wrong tomorrow, but if the story remains consistent, does that really matter in the long run?

Well that's great and I agree but what does that have to do with...what I said?

 

[number6]

Everything. You're complaining about the lack of scientific accuracy of Star Trek, and concluding that they are plot holes. Everyone else on the internet is telling you why you're wrong.

 

[Cyke101]

Enterprise's dive into TITAN's atmosphere....wow

At warp 4? Doesn't warping through subspace circumvent all that? Because the Klingon Bird of Prey warped out of Earth's atmosphere in STIV without disturbing a single cloud. The Enterprise warped out of the Mutara Nebula in STII without sustaining any damage. The Enterprise-D did the same in "Best of Both Worlds"

I've never heard that warping occured in subspace.
But yes, TVH did a boo boo too with the Bird of Prey.
In TWOK the area was clearly and the field density was no wear near that of an atmosphere (Its a Forrest for the trees thing)
Best of Both worlds didn't do it. They were on Full Impulse and then they went to warp once they cleared the nebula (which we never saw the jump to warp)

Precedent is handwaved when it doesn't fit a personal vision. The thing is, if it's been done before - repeatedly - it's probably okay in the world of Star Trek. That doesn't mean it's okay in the real world, but darn it, they're two different worlds with their own set of physics. We also don't know the physics of subspace fields, how warp drive truly operates, how a gigantic machine like a BoP can stay aloft in the first place... so how do we know TVH made a boo-boo? If we knew how all that worked, we'd probably be a lot more confident in our space programs.

If everything in Trek were 100% accurate, we'd have no Spock, we'd have no giant space amoeba, the Enterprise would look vastly different, and the Federation would be completely redefined because of no FTL/Warp. Conversely, if it were 100% accurate, we wouldn't have such things as Trek's societal metaphors or the Great Barrier, because that all requires supposition and conjecture of the future, and by definition conjecture will very, very rarely be 100% accurate. What's right today might be wrong tomorrow, but if the story remains consistent, does that really matter in the long run?

Well that's great and I agree but what does that have to do with...what I said?

You're arguing that science must be as accurate as possible to sell a believable story (the continued mentions of silly science). I'm countering with the idea that a lot of Trek's tried-and-true trademarks would not be possible without silly science.

 

[Saquist]

Without the slightest sign of friction? The skydivers may not have been glowing around the edges—and I don't know that you could show that a human beginning free fall from an effective velocity (relative to the planet's surface) of zero would ever achieve such speeds (how fast - thousands of miles per hour?) that heat caused by air friction would become a significant issue—but you can hear the difference between the near-silence at the beginning of the jump and the roar of rushing air which starts a minute or so later and above which sound Kirk yells to be heard.

Sign of friction? You make the call.

LOL!!!!

Skydivers....wow...
No.
Enterprises's Dive into TITAN's atmosphere....wow

Okay. Wow. The "why didn't the skydivers burn up?" question is one which has been raised several times before. Wow.

I don't think I recall having seen one previously concerning friction and Enterprise in Titan's atmosphere. Could that be because they were traveling at warp, exited and simultaneously came to full stop within Titan's atmosphere rather than approaching at sublight (but still wow) velocities and diving into it?

Wow.

[EDIT: Daniel beat me to it. Wow.]

That whole scene wasn't necessary.
The impact of a faster than light object with an atmosphere should have been dramatic. Like a mach 3 jet hitting the water. There should have been a shock wave....

Isn't that what Abrams was trying to do....RIGHT? Dramatic....and he MISSED...on the one part that would have worked to that drama style...

And did you see what they did with TITAN's atmosphere when it emerged? It was like the atmosphere was made of the heaviest and high density gas....at the border...of a vacuum.....

It really does boggle my mind the choices he made....

Everything. You're complaining about the lack of scientific accuracy of Star Trek, and concluding that they are plot holes. Everyone else on the internet is telling you why you're wrong.

I'm going to let you know something...
I'm not inclined to talk with you. You instigated hostilities for no reason and it seems the only reason you're seeking my attention is to find some passive aggressive way to continue doing the same while avoiding another infraction.

I'm not interested.
I'm not going to help you.
Sure keep making the little side bars but don't expect me to respond until you contribute more than the appeals to popular opinion.

Precedent is handwaved when it doesn't fit a personal vision. The thing is, if it's been done before - repeatedly - it's probably okay in the world of Star Trek. That doesn't mean it's okay in the real world, but darn it, they're two different worlds with their own set of physics. We also don't know the physics of subspace fields, how warp drive truly operates, how a gigantic machine like a BoP can stay aloft in the first place... so how do we know TVH made a boo-boo? If we knew how all that worked, we'd probably be a lot more confident in our space programs.

That's too easy of an escape.
Starships have navigational deflectors FOR that reason...so logically ...IT IS an issue...

That's a lack of consistency.

You're arguing that science must be as accurate as possible to sell a believable story (the continued mentions of silly science). I'm countering with the idea that a lot of Trek's tried-and-true trademarks would not be possible without silly science.

You should check what you read.
I didn't make that argument...at all.

 

[Gojira]

Well that's where we disagree. The more hard-to-swallow a movie's events are, the harder it is to enjoy. Don't get me wrong, I still enjoyed the movie, but I think it could have been a lot better if it didn't have so many inconsistencies, contradictions, implausibilities, and coincidences.

Again what may be "hard to swallow" for you maybe easier for another. Also, where do you draw the line with implausibility to begin with? Where does suspension of disbelief fall apart? There is no standard answer for that.

So, you're admitting that they just ignored the laws of physics and hoped no one would notice?

Sure, I admit it. I could count all day the times Star Trek ignores the laws of Physics. In the part where they slingshot around the sun in Star Trek IV they are reaching the upper ends of Warp 7.9 yet they show on screen that it takes almost 5 minutes to reach the sun. According to the Star Trek Encyclopedia at Warp 8 it should take a star ship 39 seconds to travel across the solar system. It should be almost instantaneous from the earth to the sun.

Heck time travel itself violates the laws of physics and the theoretical aspects of it are debatable.

Yeah, but resolving tension by going back and saying "oh, it wasn't really as bad as we made it out to be" is weak sauce. The audience has no way of knowing what's true and what's not; we have to rely on the dialogue to tell us what's going on, and if the dialogue is wrong, then that makes it that much harder to believe anything else in the movie.

How many times in the franchise when things were not as bad as they thought!!!!??? How many times was the crew in immediate danger only to survive in the last few moments?

If you're bothered that Spock had enough time to rescue his family and the other officials then your standards are extremely high.

But that still doesn't make sense. Just how long after he shot the red matter into the supernova did Nero come along? Was it right away? Was Spock already at warp? If so, he should have been more than far enough away from the black hole. If not, he shouldn't have had any trouble getting past Nero. Since the movie doesn't specify, the audience is left to simply assume that it's plausible without thinking too much about it.

If you want to talk about implausibility any space ship would be obliterated in a black hole so the fact that we are supposed to believe that a matter crushing black hole not only sucked up two space ships but sent them back in time and your only problem is the fact that the jellyfish didn't outrun the Narada and the black hole?

Your ability to accept some things and reject others is very selective and arbitrary.

If Spock and Nero had travelled to an alternate universe, that would be different. But because they simply travelled back in time, that serves as a plot hole, because the Star Trek franchise had already established that you can't change history without the temporal police getting involved. That's what always happens when you use time travel too much in sci-fi: you make it harder and harder to come up with new plots without contradicting previous ones.

If you read about time travel in Star Trek in the back of the Star Trek Encyclopedia the Okuda's mention that it has wrecked havoc with continuity and it is really difficult to know what is the true time line...if it exists at all.

The temporal police is such a late addition to Star Trek that they were absent from the majority of time travel stories in the franchise?

Where were the temporal police in the original series and their movies and TNG?

The more plausible the events are, the better the movie is. It takes talent to make a movie that is both creative and plausible. When you just expect the audience to ignore the inconsistencies, it brings it down.

I think the more able a person is willing to suspend disbelief the more enjoyable a movie is. If you are able to suspend disbelief even with the implausible a movie cans till be enjoyed.

 

[M'Sharak]

Let's be careful with the QUOTE tags, everyone. I just went through and fixed a bunch on the last page or two, so that it's clear who said what and all are (I think) now properly attributed to the people who actually wrote them.

 

[number6]

It's so hard to remember that when you're too busy wiping the froth from your mouth to type!!

 

[Saquist]

Let's be careful with the QUOTE tags, everyone. I just went through and fixed a bunch on the last page or two, so that it's clear who said what and all are (I think) now properly attributed to the people who actually wrote them.

yeah, mine might have been confused...

 

[Broccoli]

Let's be careful with the QUOTE tags, everyone. I just went through and fixed a bunch on the last page or two, so that it's clear who said what and all are (I think) now properly attributed to the people who actually wrote them.

yeah, mine might have been confused...

It was probably a plot hole.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The temporal police is such a late addition to Star Trek that they were absent from the majority of time travel stories in the franchise?

Where were the temporal police in the original series and their movies and TNG?

Well, in at least one VOY episode (Timeless), we would later learn that the time cops had to come and clean up the mess afterwards. They probably did that with most, if not all, the time travel eps we ever saw.

ST XI, on the other hand, is different, because it involves travel to a completely different *universe*. There'd be no way for the time cops to know about it.

 

[number6]

Let's be careful with the QUOTE tags, everyone. I just went through and fixed a bunch on the last page or two, so that it's clear who said what and all are (I think) now properly attributed to the people who actually wrote them.

yeah, mine might have been confused...

It was probably a plot hole.

It definitely lacked scientific accuracy. It totally took me out of the thread.

 

[Gojira]

The temporal police is such a late addition to Star Trek that they were absent from the majority of time travel stories in the franchise?

Where were the temporal police in the original series and their movies and TNG?

Well, in at least one VOY episode (Timeless), we would later learn that the time cops had to come and clean up the mess afterwards. They probably did that with most, if not all, the time travel eps we ever saw.

ST XI, on the other hand, is different, because it involves travel to a completely different *universe*. There'd be no way for the time cops to know about it.

I know people still debate whether or not this movie erased the old time line or created a parallel universe (I don't want to open that can of worms again). But I do agree that the movie takes place in a new universe and agree that the time cops from the original universe would have no way of knowing where Spock and Nero went when they were sucked into the black hole.

 

[F. King Daniel]

The temporal police is such a late addition to Star Trek that they were absent from the majority of time travel stories in the franchise?

Where were the temporal police in the original series and their movies and TNG?

Well, in at least one VOY episode (Timeless), we would later learn that the time cops had to come and clean up the mess afterwards. They probably did that with most, if not all, the time travel eps we ever saw.

ST XI, on the other hand, is different, because it involves travel to a completely different *universe*. There'd be no way for the time cops to know about it.

Can you back that up? And that there's any difference between "alternate timeline", "alternate reality" and "alternate universe"? Because Trek uses the terms interchangably.

 

[Set Harth]

This is the kind of stupidity in these arguments that bother me...

I'm not claiming that it is the Hobus star, just noting that you can't rule it out. Do you have any concrete evidence, any kind, that it isn't the Hobus star Nero is near in 2255?

I'm afraid the so-called "stupidity" in this argument doesn't come from me. Star Trek Online explicitly says that the Hobus star was in Romulan space, but since I have a feeling you won't accept that as "concrete evidence", you need to think about why they came to that conclusion, based on information depicted in the film, the same way I did. Among other things, assuming that the Hobus star must for some reason be in the same location as Nero's reentry point conveniently ignores the fact that Spock's reentry point is clearly depicted in the film to be a different location. But the main point is that this is a thread about so-called PLOT HOLES ( see thread title ). You cannot create an imaginary "plot hole" from thin air by simple appeal-to-ignorance "can't rule it out" speculation. If an alleged plot hole arises from a desperate rewrite of the story which repositions the locations of stars and other things, it is not a legitimate plot hole because it does not apply to the actual film. It only applies to the rewrite.

They enter the black hole at the point where it swallowed the supernova from the Hobus star ergo where they exit in the past is the Hobus....

So in other words, you’re okay with the concept of a wormhole that sends people over 100 years back in time, but the idea that it also transports travelers in space is just… too much? How does this explain Nero and Spock ending up in different places?

YOU MEAN IN ORDER FOR IT TO THREATEN THE ENTIRE GALAXY IT HAD TO BE IN ROMULAN SPACE?

No, I mean in order for Romulus to have been destroyed before Hobus was stopped or any substantial evacuation attempt was completed, while Federation or Klingon losses were conspicuously not even mentioned, it would most likely have been in Romulan space. Let’s see what STO’s “Path to 2409” has to say about it:

The star in the Hobus system, in the far reaches of Romulan space, begins to exhibit massive fluctuations of radiation.

Isn’t it interesting that I came to the same conclusion before even reading that?

You're saying the Federation/Klingon border CAN'T be the Same as the Neutral Zone where 47 klingon ships were destroyed?

Another misstatement of the plot. They’re piling up. The Klingon ships were not destroyed in a Neutral Zone. They were destroyed in the vicinity of a Klingon prison planet ( Rura Penthe ) in Klingon space.

We can not determine that they DID not emerge next to the Hobus star.

Even if you pretend that Path to 2409 does not exist, you cannot prove that they did emerge next to the Hobus star, and thus the idea is nothing more than unsupported speculation, which cannot be used as a legitimate case against Nero’s actions.

By this point the only Neutral Zone mentioned had Klingons in it and there is no other mention or any other Neutral Zone.

First, the online script refers to the “Klingon Neutral Zone” in the Kelvin sequence. The use of this nomenclature would seem to imply that “Neutral Zone” on its own is not quite specific enough as an obvious reference to the KNZ, because of the other Neutral Zone that we know of. In fact, when the term “Neutral Zone” was used in TNG, it always referred to the Romulan Neutral Zone, and there’s really no particular reason to assume that STXI is using the term differently. Also, Starfleet’s apparent assumption of a connection between the anomaly in the Neutral Zone and seismic activity on Vulcan seems to indicate a degree of relative spatial proximity, just as we saw with Vulcan and the Romulan Neutral Zone in TNG’s Unification.

Could it be that you are projecting your expectations for a Romulan Neutral Zone rather than taking the Film in it's OWN context?

OH NOW we're being sticklers to the dialogue and narative. Not drawing any conclusions or any more speculations now?

Well, which is it? It sounds like you’re trying to have it both ways. ( The solution to the riddle is that you’re not really sticking to the narrative. )

unable to decided exactly what he wanted an how he wanted to go about getting it done.

Nowhere in the film is the above shown or even implied. It's nothing more than a figment of your imagination.

The movie doesn't do well with explaining how the lightining storm in space and the 47 ships destruction were associated or where they were.... They were just clips of information thrown into were chaotic scenes and doesn't appear to be trying to make any sense.

Completely false. These things were adequately explained and made sense to many viewers.

Star Trek 09' also made the Top 40 Baffling Movie Plot Holes(...)
The Plot Hole: During the opening scene's timey-wimey shenanigans, rogue Romulan Nero (Eric Bana) arrives twenty-five years before his target, Spock. Apparently, even though he wants to take revenge for Spock's role in his own planet's demise, Nero is quite happy to sit twiddling his thumbs for a quarter of a century.

He didn't have the red matter yet, which was already explained in the previous thread, to no apparent effect. Baffling, eh?

REALLY...it's a pointless comment to SUGGEST he could have warned Romulus of the Star's future destructive potential

I hope not… because I was the one who suggested it. That the film does not show this happening on screen does not necessarily mean that it did not happen. The film’s failure to show you something you wanted to see does not constitute a real plot hole.

and evacuate Romulus?

It's a bit early to begin evacuations in the STXI timeframe, isn't it?

If nothing else, this thread has convinced me that time travel really does exist, because these are the same weak arguments advanced against the film in 2009.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Well, in at least one VOY episode (Timeless), we would later learn that the time cops had to come and clean up the mess afterwards. They probably did that with most, if not all, the time travel eps we ever saw.

ST XI, on the other hand, is different, because it involves travel to a completely different *universe*. There'd be no way for the time cops to know about it.

Can you back that up?

Back what up? If you mean the thing about 'Timeless', Captain Braxton refers to the events of that episode as "the temporal inversion in the Takara sector" (as one of the messes he and his crew had to clean up).

And that there's any difference between "alternate timeline", "alternate reality" and "alternate universe"? Because Trek uses the terms interchangably.

Not really. A single universe can encompass multiple alternate timelines. We've all seen it. "Yesterday's Enterprise", for instance. Surely you're not suggesting a whole new universe was created in that episode?

A universe is a distinct physical location. You can travel to and from it. We've seen the multiple MU episodes, of course. And "Parallels" (where we learn that people from any given universe can be identified as such by their 'quantum flux'). And ST XI. An alternate timeline, on the other hand, is more like a concept/idea that can be wiped out. We've seen that too. Change history, change it back, etc.

 

[F. King Daniel]

The only difference is in writers' interpretations. Who says "Yesterday's Enterprise" or "Shockwave" or "All Good Things" are any different to the timlines seen in "Parallels", "Mirror, Mirror" or STXI? Were any ever really erased or did we, the viewers, merely change our multiverse point-of-view?

According to "Parallels", every possible outcome to any event, anywhere, ever, exists somewhere in the infinitely layered multiverse. DS9 says time isn't linear (only our perception of it), so effect can preceed cause. Therefore in 2233 STXI is path A, where Nero appears, and TOS is path B, where it doesn't. In "Yesterday's Enterprise", 22 years prior to TNG, path A is where the Enterprise-C vanishes from Narendra III, leading to Klingon/Federation war, and path B is where the Enterprise-C doesn't vanish (or possibly vanishes and then immediately returns) and fights heroically, leading to TNG.

Short version: I don't think there's a difference, and every other timeline we've ever seen still exists.

 

[Set Harth]

Based upon the amount of inaccurate crap I've seen in Wikipedia articles I find it impossible to engage in a serious discussion with anyone who uses one as the sole supporting evidence for their position.

Yeah, Wikipedia tends to keep a lot of myths, inaccuracies and revisionist garbage alive way past the sell-by date. ( Here I'm thinking of SW rather than Trek or real science, but the same principle applies. ) I gave up on editing Wikipedia inaccuracies years ago, because some cretin would always come back and destroy my edits after the fact, returning the article to its original, and apparently preferable, state of pristine inaccuracy. One of the most frustrating things is that unsourced Wikipedia claims are often touted as established fact. People, those statements are unsourced for a reason.